Has anyone ever read this Torment review?

[Sodomy]

Not at that range, it's not. In fact, a mage turns level 9 -much- earlier than a fighter, at a mere 135,000 xp. You can get that in, like, 3 minutes after you left Sigil.

I mean, just talking to Ravel, which you could not have avoided, you get:

90,000 just for talking to her for the first time
180,000xp for finding out about Trias.
90,000 for talking to her about Mebbeth.
90,000 if you tell her you agree with her about the Lady of Pain
90,000 if you have a 17 INT, which I'd think you would as a mage, but even if your INT was 12 you'd get 60,000
90,000 if you were nice to her at -all- (as much as 180,000 if you were -very- nice to her, though that's tough to do)
32,000 xp for killing her

And, of that, I did not find out about Trias, did not agree with her on the LoP, and I don't know if I got the 90,000 for being nice to her. I'm pretty sure the rest of that is split between the party, as I only went from level 4 to level 5 after talking to her.

I would've thought you lunatic for your whole "the brothel was horrible" rant alone, but the previous staggering bullshit you've attempted to pass off makes it clear you've got some sort of agenda and you're not even remotely interested in being honest.

So, do you have any counter-argument to what I said about the brothel, or will you simply shout "ur a moron!!!"?

 

[Double Ogre]

I tend to agree with Sodomy. PS:T has an intriguing story with good writing, and I suppose it is a good game, as an interactive novel, perhaps. But as an RPG it is really weak. Fans of the Fallout/Arcanum style C&C heavy RPGs won't find many choices there, and the number crunching crowd will be disappointed as well, since there's not much to the game besides the text, and the combat is extremely dull.

One of Sodomy's earlier posts sums this up nicely.

I'm honestly kind of surprised at the extremely positive reception PS:T gets around these parts, between winning #2 in the unofficial Codex top 10, and #1 in that more recent poll. The writing and the story are great, sure, and the game does utilize skill-checks well, but the actual gameplay, as in, the interactions between the character and the gameworld, are fairly shallow.

I've been playing the game through for my third time. Sure, there's stuff that I'm finding that I haven't done before (I had never managed to get out of the Mortuary without some zombie-slaughter, so this is my first time using Stories-Bones-Tell on them; this is the first time I've found the tattooed arm of a previous incarnation in the Crypt of Dismemberment; there are a few minor sidequests I've never done before; it's the first time I've completed the Circle of Zerthimon; it's the first time I've joined the Dustmen). However, none of these new finds actually change the gameplay much, if any. All that the tattooed arm or the zombies tell you is a bit of info that you'd find out later anyways, and doesn't effect the gameplay in that it doesn't give you any new ways of approaching quests. All that finishing the Circle of Zerthimon really does is helps you to get uber more quickly, and improves Dakkon's morale (i.e., gives him a better weapon). Factions in the game are a joke, and amount to little more than "what special items and spells can you buy". Even though there are multiple ways of solving most of the problems in your path, there are very rarely any real consequences for these choices (about the only one I can think of is sacrificing party members to the pillar). There's nothing in the game that can alter the story or gameworld to any appreciable degree; you can't help Gizmo take over the town, you can't side with the Dark Elves, you can't help the Takers overthrow the Shapers, you can't choose to side with Beliar rather than Innos, you can't help one elemental temple destroy the other three. It's a linear "dialogue romp", an advanced JRPG, a Bioware game with better writing. I find it strange that a forum whose mantra is "choices and consequences" would hold it up as one of the best examples of what they're looking for, when it's got almost none of it.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=19894

 

[Erebus]

Wouldn't it be technically possible to be only level 8 against Trias if you didn't stick to one of the three available classes from early on ? (I'm not saying doing so would make any sense...)

 

[Qwinn]

And, of that, I did not find out about Trias,

Impossible. It's plot critical. Cannot be avoided. Or, well, you -can- avoid finding out about it (by cutting her off and fighting her or similar options), but if you do so, you lose the game and it ends immediately.

as I only went from level 4 to level 5 after talking to her.

So you're claiming you got through the conversation making less than 30k xp? (4th level mage has minimum 10k xp, 6th level mage at 40k xp). Bwahahaha. Dude. You're so utterly completely full of shit. The unavoidable party split 180k xp alone would've vaulted you more than that, never mind the 90k you get just for talking to her.

So, do you have any counter-argument to what I said about the brothel, or will you simply shout "ur a moron!!!"?

What "argument" did you make? I think the brothel was awesomely written, with terrific atmosphere, and I enjoyed it thoroughly, but that's a subjective opinion. What "argument" could possibly be levied that could counteract your complete lack of taste? No, I figured I'd just stick to pointing out how utterly incoherent and full of shit you are on provable matters of fact, which I think is a pretty good reflection of how seriously your opinion should be taken on any and all other matters.

Qwinn

 

[Qwinn]

Wouldn't it be technically possible to be only level 8 against Trias if you didn't stick to one of the three available classes from early on ? (I'm not saying doing so would make any sense...)

I very much doubt you could get there without being at -least- level 11 in -one- of your classes. Even if you divided up all your xp between your 3 classes as much as possible and skipped all possible avoidable xp, you'd -still- get over level 9 in all 3 classes. Probably more like at least level 11 in all of 'em. And you'd have to be -trying seriously hard- to suck that badly.

If he got up to level 11 or higher as a fighter (or probably more like minimum 14th level as a thief), then switched to lower level mage for a tough fight, and then complains that the game is unbalanced when he gets his ass kicked as a result, well, that's a pretty massive FAIL as well.

Qwinn

 

[Sodomy]

Meh, I still vividly recall hitting Trias at level 8 and finishing the game at level 11.

Either way, it doesn't change the crux of my argument- Trias is so much harder than anything that comes before (or after, really) that it's very possible to get to him vastly underleveled, at which point you just keep charging in until he runs out of spells. And I can't imagine anyone arguing that's good design.

 

[Qwinn]

Either way, it doesn't change the crux of my argument- Trias is so much harder than anything that comes before (or after, really) that it's very possible to get to him vastly underleveled,

Right. The difference in -orders of magnitude- between the xp you're claiming you got, and what the game actually provides, doesn't bear on showing that the bolded assertion is.... insane. Doesn't change the crux of the argument at all.

What a complete waste of time.

Qwinn

 

[JarlFrank]

I've played PST a long time ago but I think I was around level 20 or so when I finished the game.

 

[janjetina]

Meh, I still vividly recall hitting Trias at level 8 and finishing the game at level 11.

Either way, it doesn't change the crux of my argument- Trias is so much harder than anything that comes before (or after, really) that it's very possible to get to him vastly underleveled, at which point you just keep charging in until he runs out of spells. And I can't imagine anyone arguing that's good design.

Your "crux of the argument" was based on a flat out lie. You probably haven't even played PS:T, or you have played it with your head so far up your ass, you weren't able to grasp what went on. Reaching Trias with inadequately low level is impossible.
Still, the fact that you insist on arguing about combat, which is PS:T's weakest link, while neglecting other, superior elements that make gameplay (including stat and alignment checks in dialogues, which, like it or not, are part of the gameplay) and writing, atmosphere and characters, which are so vastly superior to any game made before or after, that they make PS:T a top notch game on their own.

The fact that you have a bad taste in games and reading comprehension issues makes you a dumbfuck. The fact that you lie trying to argue your undefendable position makes you a lying dumbfuck.

 

[Qwinn]

Oh, and incidentally?

All that the tattooed arm or the zombies tell you is a bit of info that you'd find out later anyways, and doesn't effect the gameplay in that it doesn't give you any new ways of approaching quests.

Another fail. It does in fact open up more than that. You can even get a permanent +1 DEX bonus out of it. But the way to get it isn't particularly intuitive. That's a big part of the fun of the game for me... finding the obscure little bonus things like that, which give you both great reading material and "tangible" rewards (in the form of stat boosts and such). I don't particularly care that finding them doesn't yield a dozen different endings. TNO's final fate was pretty much sealed long before the game starts... there's a couple of less-than-optimal ways to avoid it (like becoming the Silent King), but the ending you're mostly stuck with is a very important part of the story, and a far more satisfying (if sad) ending than most games will ever come close to giving you. I'd rather have one really satisfying ending than half a dozen mediocre boring ones.

Qwinn

 

[Sodomy]

Your "crux of the argument" was based on a flat out lie. You probably haven't even played PS:T, or you have played it with your head so far up your ass, you weren't able to grasp what went on. Reaching Trias with inadequately low level is impossible.
Still, the fact that you insist on arguing about combat, which is PS:T's weakest link, while neglecting other, superior elements that make gameplay (including stat and alignment checks in dialogues, which, like it or not, are part of the gameplay) and writing, atmosphere and characters, which are so vastly superior to any game made before or after, that they make PS:T a top notch game on their own.

The fact that you have a bad taste in games and reading comprehension issues makes you a dumbfuck. The fact that you lie trying to argue your undefendable position makes you a lying dumbfuck.

Did I ever claim that there are no stat checks in dialogue? It's too bad that the only ones that actually have any consequences are all in the last 10 minutes of the game. Also, there's no avoiding the huge parts of the game where the dialogue is nothing but click-through garbage.

BTW, there are no alignment checks in dialogue. And you say that I haven't played the game?

Another fail. It does in fact open up more than that. You can even get a permanent +1 DEX bonus out of it. But the way to get it isn't particularly intuitive. That's a big part of the fun of the game for me... finding the obscure little bonus things like that, which give you both great reading material and "tangible" rewards (in the form of stat boosts and such). I don't particularly care that finding them doesn't yield a dozen different endings. TNO's final fate was pretty much sealed long before the game starts... there's a couple of less-than-optimal ways to avoid it (like becoming the Silent King), but the ending you're mostly stuck with is a very important part of the story, and a far more satisfying (if sad) ending than most games will ever come close to giving you. I'd rather have one really satisfying ending than half a dozen mediocre boring ones.

One ending... one way to get there... and you think that's ideal? You'd probably love FF7. Or the NWN2 OC (which, hilariously, is actually less linear than PS:T, and yet is constantly bashed for its linearity on the Codex).

BTW, a +1 on dex would be far less important than the consequences I was comparing it to in any of the other games in that thread. Especially in a game where equipment that gives +2 to stats is common.

Oh, and will people please stop overrating PS:T's characters? Hint- angsting constantly doesn't make a character deep, and only morons and 16 year olds think that it does.

 

[overtenemy]

Oh, and will people please stop overrating PS:T's characters? Hint- angsting constantly doesn't make a character deep, and only morons and 16 year olds think that it does.

They've largely got troubled pasts to be sure, but that's a bit of an exaggeration. I'd say they suffer pretty stoically, and aren't really whiney whatsoever. Dak'kon is generally pretty unwilling to reveal much info about his or your past, and as such never really bawwws at all. Morte seems like a happy-go-lucky smartass the whole time, and only reveals the truth of the matter only if certain variables are met. Annah's just bitchy. FFG will explain herself, but doesn't whine - she's quite the opposite. I hope I don't need defend Nordom, Ignus, and especially Vhailor.

Gann, Kaelyn and Safiya have troubles as well. Does that automatically make them angst radiators? I wouldn't say so. It just so happens they're considerably less interesting than the aforementioned NPCs, in my opinion. Probably most people's as well.

 

[FeelTheRads]

dialogue is nothing but click-through garbage.

Know what else is click-through garbage? Your face.

Hint- angsting constantly doesn't make a character deep,

Who does that?

Morte? No.
Annah? No.
Fall-From-Grace? No.
Nordrom? No.
Vhailor? No.
Ignus? No.
Dak'kon? Maybe, you could say he's angsty... if you are an idiot that is.

So, that's one character. And I must emphasize this ONLY if you are an idiot.
Anything else?

 

[Sodomy]

Dakkon, Annah, FFG, and Ignus are the ones I'm mainly referring to.

Dakkon- wah wah I've lost the knowing of myself wah wah

FFG- How many conversations with her don't involve her talking about her past?

Annah- "Hey guys, she angsts over a romance that she won't express, how deep!" Well, deep by the standards of a teenager, maybe. Plus, the whole "abandoned orphan" thing was obviously played for sympathy.

Ignus- Hey, I have NO personality aside from you putting my hand in a fire!

The MotB followers dwell on their troubled pasts a whole lot less, except for Kaelyn, who is an annoying bitch that I only keep around for the sheer joy of backstabbing her at the gate (seriously, more games need to give you the option to bullshit your party members to keep them happy). Also, their personalities tend to be able to stand on their own aside from their own little soap-opera past (admitteldy, Safiya is a personality-less wonder).

 

[FeelTheRads]

So talking about your past is angsty now?

Shti.

 

[overtenemy]

But again, Dak'kon is not overtly whiney. He's generally very quiet, and only speaks of his schtick if pressed or forced. Not what I'd call a teenaged tear-fest. Plus, his tale is pretty worth it. He gets some sweet resolution at the end of the game.

How many conversations with FFG don't involve her past? Probably all of the ones relating to the other characters in your party, the Nameless One, or the quest in general. There's quite a few. And even IN the conversations regarding her past, she isn't whiney whatsoever, she's merely relating a tale. It's not as if she's some Bioware-level crazy bitch that desperately needs psychotherapy only you can deliver. In fact, her past doesn't really come into play at all and unlike most of the other characters, it doesn't really relate to you. She doesn't need help, and you don't give any.

I don't think anyone said Annah in particular was awesome, but I'd take her over Safiya any day. Not to mention, of course, if you dislike Annah and all of her bullshit, you're perfectly free to either 1. Remove her from party or 2. Be a total fucking dick to her so that she DOESN'T develop the whole unrequited love thing. And even if she does, again, like the other PS:T characters, she isn't terribly whiney about it, because as you mentioned, she doesn't bother expressing it.

And yeah Ignus is a tad one dimensional, and relatively boring. But hey, so is Safiya. Call it even? Besides, I can appreciate a crazy fuck in my party every once in awhile.

As for MotB characters and their troubled pasts, I'd say they dwell on them precisely as much as the PS:T characters do. In some instances less, in some instances more. We're talking about the whole picture here. Kaelyn certainly deserves a mention for incessantly wailing about that hated Wall of hers, and Gann's moan is directly tied to an area you go to, so if he's along you're pretty much going to have to deal with all the melodrama. The others, I'd say, or more or less on par with Torment. They have issues, but don't moan about them /unless pressed./ And again, I say this all as a big fan of MotB. I thought the characters and writing were great. I just don't see where this sense of superiority over Torment is coming from, on any level.

 

[Carceri]

there's no avoiding the huge parts of the game where the dialogue is nothing but click-through garbage.

You already made a moron of yourself a couple of posts ago, no doubt about that, however I do not understand why are you aiming now at too stupid to live.

Dakkon- wah wah I've lost the knowing of myself wah wah

The one million dollars line in a post.

The past of most of your followers is directly related to you as a character, aka their background is kind of important. Strangely enough, you managed somehow to miss this during your play through the game. But then again, you do seem to miss a lot of things, even a brain. Most probably you just clicked through the garbage.

 

[Sodomy]

The one million dollars line in a post.

The past of most of your followers is directly related to you as a character, aka their background is kind of important. Strangely enough, you managed somehow to miss this during your play through the game.

And how do you come to the conclusion that I missed it? Yes, I'm well aware of Dakkon's past with the practical incarnation, about the practical incarnation creating the unbroken circle, etc. It doesn't change my point. You must be a real retard to not understand that.

 

[Sodomy]

But again, Dak'kon is not overtly whiney. He's generally very quiet, and only speaks of his schtick if pressed or forced. Not what I'd call a teenaged tear-fest. Plus, his tale is pretty worth it. He gets some sweet resolution at the end of the game.

He really only gets sweet resolution if you merge with TTO or fight him. If you just will TTO or yourself out of existence, he doesn't.

I don't think anyone said Annah in particular was awesome, but I'd take her over Safiya any day. Not to mention, of course, if you dislike Annah and all of her bullshit, you're perfectly free to either 1. Remove her from party or 2. Be a total fucking dick to her so that she DOESN'T develop the whole unrequited love thing. And even if she does, again, like the other PS:T characters, she isn't terribly whiney about it, because as you mentioned, she doesn't bother expressing it.

Have you forgotten about her line to TTO?

And yeah Ignus is a tad one dimensional, and relatively boring. But hey, so is Safiya. Call it even? Besides, I can appreciate a crazy fuck in my party every once in awhile.

Well, if you want one-dimensional, you also have to lump Vhailor in there; I didn't mention him because he's in your party for a grand total of 10 seconds or so.

 

[Carceri]

And how do you come to the conclusion that I missed it?

The MotB followers dwell on their troubled pasts a whole lot less

Hint- angsting constantly doesn't make a character deep

wah wah I've lost the knowing of myself wah wah

Ignus- Hey, I have NO personality aside from you putting my hand in a fire!

wah wah I am just a stupid troll and I feel so frustrated I could not read all that garbage that I clicked and I have to trol now wah wah

wah wah

 

[overtenemy]

That's true, you have to get the good ending to get good results on multiple levels. I don't really consider that to be a flaw in the game.


I haven't forgotten what Annah said to TTO, but I don't thing a single line not even uttered to the Nameless One at the very end of the game really constitutes "angsting everywhere" or however you put it. She doesn't really moan for the rest of the game, cept for stuff like talking to Fell, and that's not exactly the same thing.

Vhailor is extremely one-dimensional to be sure, but provides a great deal of hilarity. From forcing you to kill Trias, to attempting to kill Annah (or even you), he was a blast to have along, and a solid NPC. Again, it's true, his real flaw is that he appears so late in the game. But because the rest of the cast is so solid, I don't really mind that Ignus and Vhailor are so single-minded. It adds variety if anything.

But really, you seem to have stopped arguing about Dak'kon and FFG being huge emo fags, and now have only a single line delivered from Annah at the end of the game to back the case against her. Do you still really think the cast is extremely angsty after lal this?

 

[Sodomy]

And how do you come to the conclusion that I missed it?

The MotB followers dwell on their troubled pasts a whole lot less

Hint- angsting constantly doesn't make a character deep

wah wah I've lost the knowing of myself wah wah

Ignus- Hey, I have NO personality aside from you putting my hand in a fire!

Jesus Christ, you're a moron. How do any of those lines indicate that I don't know about Dakkon's past with the practical incarnation? Wouldn't the fact that I think that he dwells on his past too much and the fact that I know about Ignus' history with a previous incarnation indicate that I did go through the dialogue enough to learn about Dakkon's past?

But really, you seem to have stopped arguing about Dak'kon and FFG being huge emo fags, and now have only a single line delivered from Annah at the end of the game to back the case against her. Do you still really think the cast is extremely angsty after lal this?

Yes. Dakkon being connected to TNO doesn't mitigate his angst, and FFG's final line was worthy of a kid at Hot Topic.

 

[Gragt]

Did you just invoke the name of your Lord and Saviour in vain, you heathen?

 

[Murk]

ITT Sodomy didn't like PS:T and tries to argue that it's not that his opinion sucks, it's that the game sucks.

Dude, get over it.

 

[Carceri]

something

Your comprehensive abilities are astounding. Read my posts again. I was saying that the past of the characters, the angst and their whining, you know, the things you keep saying are annoying, all these things are like this for a reason you endless bag of crap, the reason I already mentioned in my first post. Their torment - hey wait a minute, it is even in the title of the game - is quite important for you to see the big picture that is the nature of your character, for all the pieces of the puzzle to come together. That's what you missed, otherwise you would have not went so far as to post those embarrassing conclusions of yours about the PS:T characters. Now be a good boy and go sodomize yourself.