Holding up PS:T as an example

(or: a conversation on story-driven RPGs.)

(Disclaimer: I'm not stating that PS:T is a bad game. In fact, it's quite clearly a great game. However, the game has certain issues which don't seem to be discussed much, which should be.)

I'm honestly kind of surprised at the extremely positive reception PS:T gets around these parts, between winning #2 in the unofficial Codex top 10, and #1 in that more recent poll. The writing and the story are great, sure, and the game does utilize skill-checks well, but the actual gameplay, as in, the interactions between the character and the gameworld, are fairly shallow.

I've been playing the game through for my third time. Sure, there's stuff that I'm finding that I haven't done before (I had never managed to get out of the Mortuary without some zombie-slaughter, so this is my first time using Stories-Bones-Tell on them; this is the first time I've found the tattooed arm of a previous incarnation in the Crypt of Dismemberment; there are a few minor sidequests I've never done before; it's the first time I've completed the Circle of Zerthimon; it's the first time I've joined the Dustmen). However, none of these new finds actually change the gameplay much, if any. All that the tattooed arm or the zombies tell you is a bit of info that you'd find out later anyways, and doesn't effect the gameplay in that it doesn't give you any new ways of approaching quests. All that finishing the Circle of Zerthimon really does is helps you to get uber more quickly, and improves Dakkon's morale (i.e., gives him a better weapon). Factions in the game are a joke, and amount to little more than "what special items and spells can you buy". Even though there are multiple ways of solving most of the problems in your path, there are very rarely any real consequences for these choices (about the only one I can think of is sacrificing party members to the pillar). There's nothing in the game that can alter the story or gameworld to any appreciable degree; you can't help Gizmo take over the town, you can't side with the Dark Elves, you can't help the Takers overthrow the Shapers, you can't choose to side with Beliar rather than Innos, you can't help one elemental temple destroy the other three. It's a linear "dialogue romp", an advanced JRPG, a Bioware game with better writing. I find it strange that a forum whose mantra is "choices and consequences" would hold it up as one of the best examples of what they're looking for, when it's got almost none of it.

I agree with most of what is sead, but I never liked PS:T as a game, but rather had alot of respect for what it tried to acomplish. Maybe if games could become art, Planescape was the closest thing we ever got.

Yeah, I always said that Arcanum was better.

Arcanum's UI is worse.

Sodomy said:

Even though there are multiple ways of solving most of the problems in your path, there are very rarely any real consequences for these choices (about the only one I can think of is sacrificing party members to the pillar). There's nothing in the game that can alter the story or gameworld to any appreciable degree; you can't help Gizmo take over the town, you can't side with the Dark Elves, you can't help the Takers overthrow the Shapers, you can't choose to side with Beliar rather than Innos, you can't help one elemental temple destroy the other three. It's a linear "dialogue romp", an advanced JRPG, a Bioware game with better writing.

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I agree that Torment can be very linear and focused on the (great) storyline. But to say that there is nothing in the game that can alter the story/gameworld and that when it comes to choices and consequences it comes after ToEE? You already mentioned one counter example - the Pillar of Sculls. But the Grimoire of Pestilential Thought also allows you to do that - does that count? What about creating Adahn? Or finding the demon you released during that Hive quest in Curst? Or one of my favorite parts of the game - the Silent King plot line?

Zero Credibility said:

Sodomy said:

Even though there are multiple ways of solving most of the problems in your path, there are very rarely any real consequences for these choices (about the only one I can think of is sacrificing party members to the pillar). There's nothing in the game that can alter the story or gameworld to any appreciable degree; you can't help Gizmo take over the town, you can't side with the Dark Elves, you can't help the Takers overthrow the Shapers, you can't choose to side with Beliar rather than Innos, you can't help one elemental temple destroy the other three. It's a linear "dialogue romp", an advanced JRPG, a Bioware game with better writing.

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I agree that Torment can be very linear and focused on the (great) storyline. But to say that there is nothing in the game that can alter the story/gameworld and that when it comes to choices and consequences it comes after ToEE? You already mentioned one counter example - the Pillar of Sculls. But the Grimoire of Pestilential Thought also allows you to do that - does that count? What about creating Adahn? Or finding the demon you released during that Hive quest in Curst? Or one of my favorite parts of the game - the Silent King plot line?

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I'd say that ToEE and Torment are about are about equal in terms of C&C, maybe with a slight edge to ToEE (at least ToEE's townspeople react if you butcher others indescriminately, and your party members may turn on you based on your alignment). The Grimoire of Pestelential Thought would count, I suppose. Adahn is pushing it, since he doesn't do anything except give you some phat lewt- I'd lean towards no on him. The demon released in the Moridor's Box quest is pretty meaningless, since it just gives you one monster to fight in an unpopulated area. The Silent King plot line definitely counts, and is probably the best instance of C&C in the game.

Still, three instances of C&C is nothing to write home about.

kingcomrade said:

Arcanum's UI is worse.

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Actually, Arcanum's Interface was quite good when you got used to it.

Actually, no.

Sodomy said:

I'd say that ToEE and Torment are about are about equal in terms of C&C, maybe with a slight edge to ToEE (at least ToEE's townspeople react if you butcher others indescriminately, and your party members may turn on you based on your alignment).

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Killing indiscriminately can get you mazed by the Lady. Also, Vhailor and Ignus will turn on you if you make a mistake during dialog with them. Which makes a lot more sense to me then the alignment approach.

Still, three instances of C&C is nothing to write home about.

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But ToEE? I just finished it for the first time yesterday and all I see is a dungeon crawl. A good dungeon crawl with nice TB combat, but still a dungeon crawl.

Actually, no.

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: It wasn't hard to use at all to me.

Zero Credibility said:

Sodomy said:

I'd say that ToEE and Torment are about are about equal in terms of C&C, maybe with a slight edge to ToEE (at least ToEE's townspeople react if you butcher others indescriminately, and your party members may turn on you based on your alignment).

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Killing indiscriminately can get you mazed by the Lady. Also, Vhailor and Ignus will turn on you if you make a mistake during dialog with them. Which makes a lot more sense to me then the alignment approach.

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Fair enough; I didn't know about any of these.
Still, I did a psycho-evil run through (my second one); I killed a shitload of people (hell, I even killed Annah before leaving Pharod's throne room), and that wasn't enough to get mazed. Or, even enough to get people to look at me suspiciously.

The alignment approach has its merits. You'd think that Dakkon, FFG, and Morte would at least complain about me slaughtering everyone in my way. Yeah, I know, Dakkon is sworn to follow me, but he could at least complain a bit, especially when I throw Morte back into the pillar. What about Morte and (especially) FFG? Using Ravel's reasoning here would be a WEAK cop-out.

But ToEE? I just finished it for the first time yesterday and all I see is a dungeon crawl. A good dungeon crawl with nice TB combat, but still a dungeon crawl.

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1. Killing JUST ONE Homlet citizen (unless attacked first) aggros almost the entire town.
2. In the quest where you get the Braumeister's Apprentice to settle his debt to the Curth of St. Cuthbert, if you intimidate him into paying instead of paying for him, the town regards you suspiciously; some Homlet quests are harder to complete, and I think merchants raise their prices. The apprentice, however, due to his need of a job, becomes available as a party member.
3. If you let the gnolls in the Moathouse live, there'll be a random encounter later where they've attacked a group of merchants.
4. If you let Lareth into your party, he'll betray you when you get to the temple.
5. If you let Elmo or Otis into your party, if you're evil, they'll betray you when you get to the temple.
6. The Neutral Evil opening vignette results in a quest that requires you to kill the people at the curch of St. Cuthbert. Doing so hurts your reputation with people who follow that faction, and helps your reputation to people who follow Jaroo's faction.
7. Calling out the girl who pickpockets you at the Nulb Inn ends up with you killing someone who could give you easy access to the Fire Temple.
8. Doing the quest where you kill the giant fish helps your reaction in Nulb; I think makes certain persuasion and intimidation checks easier.
9. There's an assassination quest in the bar in Nulb that, if taken, turns all pirates hostile.
10. If in the quest to get the statue back to the gypsy in Nulb you simply KO the dude who took it, this modifies your reputations in Hommlet (raises it with the Cuthbert followers, lowers it with the Jaroo followers).
11. The obvious choices between the 4 temple factions.
12. If Lawful Evil, saving the dude with Fragarach makes it impossible to complete the opening vignette (effects ending).
13. The obvious choices at the end with the orb of golden death, the platinum pillar, joining the temple, etc.
14. If you have the Hill Giant from temple level 3 in your party, you can't join Hedrack in the greater temple.

kingcomrade said:

Arcanum's UI is worse.

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Actually, who gives a shit? I don't want to excuse bad designed elements of the game, but it has many other strong points.

Heck, we're not the chocolate milk/halo crowd here, its possible to get used to the fucking interface and enjoy the game despite it.

@OP: I dont agree with everything said there but my knowledge of PS:T is not very fresh (time to start another playthru) and I'm to lazy to argue.
I'd like to hear the opinion of some PST spec like Lumpy on this.

I just played the Japanese SRPG Tactics Ogre (the PSX port of the SNES original). There are some really significant plot branches in it (ex. the first branch bifurcates at a point where you decide whether to do a nasty false flag operation, and a lot of plot and character development hinges on this decision). I was pretty impressed.

As far as PS:T, it's more or less the game that told me that C&C isn't that important to me, and what is important is that I can express a nature and personality for the character in the gameworld. Bloodlines is about as linear and compartmentalized as PS:T, but it's possible to create a vivid sycophant, or a psychotic bully, or one of several other personality archetypes and by the end of the game the guy feels like a complete and distinct character. PS:T has more depth and less breadth in characterizing TNO, but the principle is the same. Ultimately C&C has incidental interest to me, because there's a limit to how much characterization you can do without giving the PC some real agency, but it's not an end unto itself.

If you look at the interview with Chris Avellone over at rpgwatch.com (done by brother none), Chris A. also mentions that the quests and missions in PS: Torment more were a way for your character to find info about himself. They were never designed to be all combat all the time. Chris A. also mentions that they wanted to do a topsey-turvey of the D&D clichées, for instance by making rats one of the strongest monsters in the game. If you died, this could be helpfull, as you would get more info from your past. So could the tattoos.

The reason PS: Torment is held in such high regard by the Codex is that it offers choce and consequence, it has an intriguing story (which needs to be told in sort of linear fashion), you can't joj every faction in the game. And the dialogue choices mean something e.g. if you choose option # 3, this will lead to option # 5, but not option # 4.
[I've tried this a couple of times when I played it, as annoying as it was, it was also veru realistic].

And the writing is outstanding.

Uh, I'd also add that the *combined experience* of playing PS:T is far greater than any other RPG I've tried, regardless of aspects where other games might be technically superior.

aries202 said:

The reason PS: Torment is held in such high regard by the Codex is that it offers choce and consequence,

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Not much. The only areas I can come up with are the pillar of skulls, the grimoire of pestilential thought, Ignus and Vailor turning on you, and the silent king plotline. I suppose you could argue that the conversations in the crystal trap might be considered, since one option gives you a piece of info that can be used to talk TTO out of existence. Compare this with the list for ToEE, which is hardly a game chock-full of C&C, you'll see that this is in fact NOT the case. Arcanum probably beats it in the first town.

it has an intriguing story

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Agreed

(which needs to be told in sort of linear fashion),

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Not agreed. I see no reason for the game to have to be linear, since the majority of the "story" as it were is the back-story, not the action happening in the game.

you can't joj every faction in the game.

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Yeah, but factions in PS:T are simply "who can I buy uber-lewt from".

And the dialogue choices mean something e.g. if you choose option # 3, this will lead to option # 5, but not option # 4.
[I've tried this a couple of times when I played it, as annoying as it was, it was also veru realistic].

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Yeah, but except for in a very few cases, those options end up in either the same place (in a plot-oriented conversation) or in the "good case/evil case" (in a quest conversation). The "good case/evil case" only effects loot and alignment (and, since alignment in PS:T only efects what items you can use... it effects loot and loot).

And the writing is outstanding.

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Agreed, but this alone doesn't make a good RPG.

The C&C in Planescape Torment isn't about affecting the world or even a city. The story isn't about this. Instead, it's centered on the development of the protagonist himself, his companions, and well, the people he meets. As such, the C&C in PS:T is instead in affecting TNO's own character traits and the NPCs he meets.

Your dialogue choices all affect TNO's alignment. True, in a "normal" RPG like say NWN, whatever alignment you are is just an inconsequential tag on your character. But in PS:T, a game centered only around your own character and resulting in facing your own personified mortality, alignment means more than just a numerated statistic because TNO himself is as much of a part of PS:T's setting as Sigil is.

What does a change in alignment actually change aside from two words on the character screen and what items you can use? Unless there's some QUANTIFIABLE change apart from that, it has no value except for LARPing.

Sodomy said:

What does a change in alignment actually change aside from two words on the character screen and what items you can use? Unless there's some QUANTIFIABLE change apart from that, it has no value except for LARPing.

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I said:

True, in a "normal" RPG like say NWN, whatever alignment you are is just an inconsequential tag on your character. But in PS:T, a game centered only around your own character and resulting in facing your own personified mortality, alignment means more than just a numerated statistic because TNO himself is as much of a part of PS:T's setting as Sigil is.

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But the alignment doesn't actually CHANGE TNO. It doesn't give him the "level 5 asshole spell" if he's evil, it doesn't give him the "power of angelic flight" if he's good, it (to my knowledge) doesn't change how people talk to him, it (again, to my knowledge) doesn't change his dialogue options (and, if it does, it definitely doesn't in any important conversations), he doesn't randomly fly into rages if chaotic, he doesn't lose the ability to be benevolent if evil, etc. It really is just an inconsequential tag, just like NWN (apparently, since I've never played NWN).

Compare this to Arcanum's handling of alignment, where it controlled what NPC followers you could get, could change a couple of steps on the main quest, changed the dialogue options in a few encounters, etc. Playing as a "Sold Your Soul" mage, the alignment hit DID actually change the character.

No, it doesn't give him extra abilities. But that wasn't my point. My point is that TNO is the setting of PS:T, that change in the alignment is in itself a consequence because you are causing change in the setting itself. In the end, everything in a video game is just a bunch of lines on the screen - not just alignment, so you can't just say alignment in PS:T is unimportant just because it results in less text difference.

By saying "It'd doesn't give him the "level 5 asshole spell" if he's evil, it doesn't give him the "power of angelic flight" if he's good," you're missing the point behind the themes that PS:T explores. PS:T's not about special powers you gain, not about your reputation with Sigil's dwellers who could care less about you berk. It's about the development of TNO's personality and beliefs as he learns through his adventure.

sabishii said:

In the end, everything in a video game is just a bunch of lines on the screen - not just alignment, so you can't just say alignment in PS:T is unimportant just because it results in less text difference.

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If you want to take things down to such a level, you could say that changing the alignment probably requires the change of two variables (maybe even only 1, depending on whether the coders used a seperate variable for both axes of the alignment, or whether they used a single variable to hold both axes). Arcanum's change in alignment obviously requires the changing of many more variables (Magnus, Raven, Franklin Payne, Torian Kel and Halfling theif follower, Dark elves, destruction of Vendigroth device, general townperson reactions, etc).

By saying "It'd doesn't give him the "level 5 asshole spell" if he's evil, it doesn't give him the "power of angelic flight" if he's good," you're missing the point behind the themes that PS:T explores. PS:T's not about special powers you gain, not about your reputation with Sigil's dwellers who could care less about you berk. It's about the development of TNO's personality and beliefs as he learns through his adventure.

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So, how does his personality change if your alignment changes? Does an evil TNO start losing good options, but gaining more varied evil options? Does he even get the cosmetic change of phrasing the same stuff in an evil way? No. His personality DOESN'T change based on the two words under alignment on the character screen.

So, how does his personality change if your alignment changes? Does an evil TNO start losing good options, but gaining more varied evil options? Does he even get the cosmetic change of phrasing the same stuff in an evil way? No. His personality DOESN'T change based on the two words under alignment on the character screen.

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And how would that make sense? Dialogue is supposed to be always 100% under the player's control, unless physically/mentally limited as in the Int stat. Why can't an evil person say something that a good person can say? Is there a physical or mental limitation on what someone can say just because they are evil?

It worked in Arcanum (a good character didn't even get the dialogue option to join the dark elves).

You said that the game was about the character's personality and beliefs changing. Unless this is manifested in the gameplay (gameplay includes any situation where there's player input- in other words, dialogue, combat, thieving, other methods of quest completeion, etc.) somehow, there is no game. If this is only manifested what items you can use, it's a very shallow game.

Sodomy said:

It worked in Arcanum (a good character didn't even get the dialogue option to join the dark elves).

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Just butting in now. The way they handled alignment in Arcanum was utterly retarded at a lot of times, heck, maybe even most of the times. For one thing, it was way too damn easy to max out the good side. If you solved just about any quest, you got "good points", unless you did one of the few "evil" methods. Even if the quest was just a fetch quest, you always had to accept the reward, and you always got the good points. And if you were a diplomat, you pretty much were shoehorned into being good, no real choice at all, as the talkative path almost always yielded good points. And the way people just knew if you were good or evil was absolutely ridiculous as well. When you help Torian Kel, listen to his noble plight, and ask him to join up in a quest to possibly save his comrades souls, he'll just say "You're too good....I'm not joining", which is just bullshit. Because first off, it doesn't fit at all with the writing, and second, how the hell does he know?

And as for alignment dictating choices, that's just stupid as well. Why can't a "good" person think that maybe the dark elves might be half right, maybe releasing Arronax (even though it's really Kerghan lurking in the Void...waiting for release) to crush technology and human over-expansion might not be bad. Maybe you'll want to use your mastery of persuasion to talk old Arronax out of his elf-run tyranny and maybe towards a more noble end. And think of it this way.....how odd would it be if characters with high karma in Fallout couldn't join the Master, or even talk to Morpheus and get an audience?

Arcanum did a lot of things right, like the reputations, and miscellaneous things like publishing your story in the newspaper attracting more unwanted attention. But the alignment system sure as hell wasn't one of those good things. Heck....it was worse than Bioware's good/evil meters in most ways. Why they couldn't have just based everything off reputations is beyond me. Would have worked like a charm.