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Has anyone ever read this Torment review?

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,886
http://www.abandonia.com/vbullet/showthread.php?t=17132

It's probably the most equivocal one you will ever read.

You'll also come across some of the most unique and memorable NPCs in any RPG ever, and you'll also come across some of the most worthless and annoying NPCs in any RPG ever.

For a guy who makes alot of strong negative statements about the game, he certainly has played it very extensively and deeply, having found Ignus and Nordom in his party, so props to him. He may well have played the game twice, because of the entire quests that he ensures to describe.

What do you guys think about it?
 

Rohit_N

Prophet
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Feb 15, 2007
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Serpent in the Staglands Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I don't know. I enjoyed Torment's dialog enough to call it "gameplay", so the terrible combat didn't annoy me too much.
 

Carceri

Arcane
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Jul 3, 2007
Messages
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Location
Transylvania
the only time you're going to level up is when you talk, which while not a problem in itself, is quite disconcerting when you realize that there's nothing else to Torment.

...nothing else? Nothing else like what? Hackin' and slashin'? Anyway, Trias kicked his imbecilic ass, heheh.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
Gameplay - 3
Fail.

You see, the balancing in Planescape is atrocious. I found myself getting butchered by the same boss over and over (Trias) because of his incessant use of the cheapest spell ever created. With a single cast of Bladestorm, he could effectively kill a good quarter of my party.
He really sucks at it.

That's another problem with Planescape, leveling up is dumbed down to the point where you just get a few stat points each level...
Familiarity with 2E - 0

If Oblivion is the deconstruction of RPGs from their original stats oriented hardcore forms, then isn't Planescape: Torment the same?
The guy is clearly a moron.

An RPG? All you need to know is that there's a fantasy/steampunk/modern/whatever setting, and there's a bunch of dangerous things in them and if you kill them you get stronger.
Todd?

I WANT TO PLAY A GAME, NOT A BOOK.
...
 
Joined
Nov 16, 2008
Messages
626
There is quite a bit to nitpick in his revies, but he's pretty much got the general idea of PS:T. Linear adventure with awful combat, Bioware style, and great dialog CA style.
 
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You could always ask him

Seems like he's more interested in gameplay, which is legit. I mean, I don't think anything excuses being inundated with terrible "gameplay". Torment dodged this bullet by making the gameplay what it did well; dialogue and exploring a really inventive world. Maybe my mindset is a little warped, but whatever. It can't really be compared to stuff like KOTOR or Final Fantasy because 90% of time spent in Torment is likely in the story, whether it be dialogue or such, whereas the other games have the story take up only 30% of playtime and the rest is a godawful abortion of "combat".
 

headache

Novice
Joined
Apr 19, 2003
Messages
83
I have noticed that Abandonia reviews often seem to be written by Gumbys ("My brain hurts!"). But I find them kind of refreshing and I end up admiring the writer for soldiering through the old-school game. Odd, when it's a fan site for old-school games.
 

Wyrmlord

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Feb 3, 2008
Messages
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Edward_R_Murrow said:
Oh, I am in regular acquaintance with the guy on the internet; he's a South African kid of my age who's a big Ultima enthusiast.

He moderates his own small board, mainly targeted towards people who are solely interested in gameplay and not story.

I remember how once he ranted a bit against Vault Dweller about how he "dared lecture ME on Ultima" on NMA, and said that VD's idea that Ultima was about choices was wrong because Ultima was about exploration.
 

Jaime Lannister

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
7,183
"If Oblivion is the deconstruction of RPGs from their original stats oriented hardcore forms, then isn't Planescape: Torment the same?"

this guy is definitely a respectable reviewer
 

MaskedMartyr

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 21, 2008
Messages
472
deconstruction of RPGs from their original stats oriented hardcore forms

grabbin my spreadshits n calculator oh boy time to play an arpeegee

Really, I mean damn son, not everyone plays games like this. Enjoy the game but don't deconstruct every bit of it down from what it was not meant to be until you can't enjoy it.
 

AlaCarcuss

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Jan 6, 2008
Messages
1,335
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BrizVegas, Australis Penal Colony
Well, like it or not, he does make 'some' valid points.

I don't understand why we can't have both story and gameplay and not have them seem to be mutually exclusive.

Imagine for instance PST with ToEE's combat system, hmmm :roll:
 

scient

Augur
Joined
Oct 21, 2008
Messages
203
Everything but the most measly and pathetic enemies in Torment has nearly impossible resistances to any spells that require saving throws, so there's practically no point to using any spells like Entangle in order to gain a tactical advantage. In fact, what's the point of Entangle if there's only one ranged character?

Uh, Entangle is like a BG1/BG2 spell and doesn't EXIST in PST... lol? Actually, I don't think there is a single anti-ranged item ability / spell / etc in the game.

Looking at the date it doesn't look like he used Qwinn's fixpack which would have improved the combat.

If you think Oblivion is a poor example of an RPG, add Planescape onto the list it might as well have been a piking text adventure for all the RPG gameplay it is.

:roll:
 

Qwinn

Scholar
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Messages
666
My oh my. That review is just begging to be deconstructed.

the first NPC you meet will be Morte, a floating obnoxious skull who can't shut up. He'll fill you in on the basic and vague elements of the plot and provide some amusing lines (which aren't so amusing anymore after he becomes useless as a fighter half-way through the game).

Um. Yeah. Morte. "Useless as a fighter". Except for being essentially the perfect tank. Right.

After a bit of dialog (that'll take you at least twenty freakin' minutes to traverse if you're thinking about the responses you want to give)

Here he's referring to the initial dialogue with Morte, and this actually hints that he -did- play with at least the original Restoration Pack that restores Morte's more complex opening dialoue, cause without it or my UB, his initial dialogue is pretty linear. Either that, or he's a complete moron. Cause even the more complex dialogue doesn't take "twenty freakin' minutes", the bare bones dialogue you get with the original game shouldn't take you five.

Spell effects, while pretty, are flamboyant and fill up nearly the whole damn screen, some also tend to pause the game and force you to glare at an agonizingly slow spell effect that gets old after you've been forced to sit through it through the tenth time.

Alright, fair enough, yeah, sometimes I'd stop using certain spells just to avoid the spell effects after having seen (and liked 'em) a dozen times. Course, the NVidia graphics problems may have had a lot to do with that too.

To add more to the hatred, Planescape is incredibly linear. You'll be going through areas as the story guides you, and there's usually no deviation. This means you're going to be stuck in some areas for a good portion of the game (the Dead Nations can kiss my ass).

Uh, it's kinda weird to bitch about linearity and then end up cursing an area of the game that -can be skipped altogether because this is a part of the game that ain't linear-. And cripes, it's not like it's hard to get out of there.

Planescape's developers at Black Isle must have noticed that it's pointless to be anything other than a mage (the quest to undergo training as a mage is one of the most unbelievably atrocious and horrendous fetch quests in the history of ANY RPG)

I'm seriously tempted to post the Captain Hyperbole pic here, but I'll save the space. I kinda liked the quest, actually. It was written particularly well, and it had the whole Miyagi "Wax on, wax off" "Why the hell are you having me do these pointless tasks, oh, now I get it" feel to it, which was kinda cool. And if he really hates it, well, he -can- become a mage via about three other trainers in the game without any sidequests, but then he'd just have to do it later.

Dak'kon also has the only bit of backstory that is actually fully fleshed out an resolved with the Nameless One

Translation: I was too stupid and patting myself on the back for hating this game to actually ask Grace about Morte being a mimir, which would've unlocked that whole "actually fully fleshed out" backstory of his.

You see, the balancing in Planescape is atrocious. I found myself getting butchered by the same boss over and over (Trias) because of his incessant use of the cheapest spell ever created. With a single cast of Bladestorm, he could effectively kill a good quarter of my party.
Compare this to the last boss who is total cake, and you have a whole lot of moments where you wonder what the developers were doing.
Sometimes it feels like the enemies the developers intended to be cannon fodder instead come out as impossible road blocks, whereas the major battles with the plot's most pivotal characters tend to be incredibly easy.

Okay, this totally doesn't make sense. He thinks Trias was supposed to be -cannon fodder-? It is true that TO was too easy though.

Actually, overall I can't blame him for not liking PS:T's combat, though I hope I have improved it at least somewhat (the "your party can run five to eight times faster than anything in the game" thing was just whacked). But "Trias is too hard, waaah"... make up yer mind, buddy. I'm not about to bitch about the only decent combat challenge in the game, and even then I don't think he was that hard. I do wonder if he just skipped doing all the quests in Curst that weaken Trias, in which case, he's just an idiot.

Torment feels like it's all over the place when it comes to difficulty.

I disagree. Unmodded, it was pretty much all too easy.

Improving your actual usage of weaponry is restricted to isolated and hard to find trainers. Sometimes these bastards will only teach single paths of weaponry, and since being a mage is the only plausible option, it's a pain in the ass to scrounge around for people late game trying to improve your skill with daggers so that the Nameless One will cut people deeper while swinging his little butter knife around gayly.

Flat out bullshit. There's no weapon trainer in the game that doesn't train all weapon types, though some will train all skills better than others. And the best trainer in the game is frankly almost -too- accessible, and makes all future trainers pretty pointless. Seriously, I would've rather had the five point trainer guy in Curst, cause as it is, you wind up not getting to train five points in anything until you come -back- to Sigil, at which point the game's almost done. Anyway. His bitch here is just completely wrong.

The stupidity of bitching about a non-existent spell (Entangle) has already been pointed out. Well done.

Most of this stuff isn't too obvious, although all of it is dialog oriented. You don't get more or less evil for attacking random people or other species on the street,

Wrong. It sure does. Maybe not in -all- cases, but in quite a few it does.

and it isn't effected when you steal junk.

True. Would've been cool if it had, but oh well. Take away what he was wrong about in the first part of the sentence, and would this have been a reason to bitch all by itself?

What makes this so stupid is that if you snap their neck you become more evil, if you just kill them in normal combat without speaking to them at all or without them being hostile, nothing happens. Nada. What's more evil? Attempting to kill someone after you realize they might call the guards on you, or attempting to kill someone just because they happened to be walking around? Madness!

He's wrong -again-, you do not get more evil for snapping their necks in dialogue. It's certainly valid to feel that you -should- get an evil alignment hit in both cases, but what he's bitching about is an inconsistency that isn't there.

I found characters getting stuck behind things all the time, buildings would cover up characters and sometimes I'd search for long ass times just trying to find where the Nameless One had another attack of amnesia and decided to shamble off.

Really? Really? Wow. Simple-ass interface > Reviewer.

I can't complain about Torment's sound. It's okay enough

And he then proceeds to complain long and obnoxiously about it. I think he's smoking crack here... PS:T is an audio feast compared to virtually every other game out there.

Maybe we should just chuck the complexity and hardcore gameplay of the venerable Gold Box titles.

Er. Dude? I've been replaying 'em, and while I do much prefer turn-based combat, frankly, the gold box games weren't all that complex. Fireball everything until you can cast Delayed Blast Fireball, then do that. That covers PoR-CotAB and SotSB. Pools of Darkness gets a -little- more interesting than that in maybe two or three small areas, but that's about it.

In his "Cons", he -again- bitches about "too many worthless PC's". Considering he considers Morte to be "worthless", that's pretty idiotic. It was also kinda funny when he says: "Quite frankly, the only NPCs you'll ever need are Dak'kon, Morte, Nordom, Fall-From-Grace and Annah." Oh, -only- those? Cause that's "only", like, over 70% of the available NPC's, and enough to fill out the party.

"Poor character development"? No, moron, you just didn't -find- it. "Sucky soundtrack"? Kiss my ass.

My opinion of the review: This guy got pissy about some legitimate gripes (like combat) and decided he was -going- to hate the game, and just started to make up all sorts of complete bullshit to defend that position. Pretty lame.

Qwinn
 

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,886
GarfunkeL said:
he's a South African kid of my age

So he's what? 15? 35? 55?
He's 17-18.

On his YouTube page he remarks on how coming from a backwater country, he had started playing games that were older than he was because he only had an old computer and old games to find.

That's a circumstance with which I quite sympathise. Back in the late 90s, I was playing 80s and early 90s shooters, sidescrollers,.etc; because I didn't have as much access to recent games. Hell, I remember buying a copy of Doom and Doom 2 from a store in 1999-2000-ish. Yes, bought it from a store.
 

murraysku

Novice
Joined
Jan 24, 2003
Messages
8
It seems odd a big Ultima fan would condemn a game for poor gameplay with an emphasis on story. Combat in the later Ultimas had, what, 3 stats? Ultimas 1-3 had more involved character systems, I believe, but they're barely remembered. Ultima IV, father of modern RPGs, is notable precisely because it takes the genre beyond "here's a setting, kill things and get stronger."

It's fair enough that Torment wasn't his cup of tea, but that seemed to trigger a truly massive rant. More than anything, he needs to chill.
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E said:
There is quite a bit to nitpick in his revies, but he's pretty much got the general idea of PS:T. Linear adventure with awful combat, Bioware style, and great dialog CA style.

you have got to be the worst troll ever
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
He's 17-18.

How very unsurprising.

It's fair enough that Torment wasn't his cup of tea, but that seemed to trigger a truly massive rant. More than anything, he needs to chill.

His trolling against Torment is quite well known on NMA for example.
 

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