Will PoE be shit?

[Shevek]

Poor stat implementation (where stats are garbage or garbage between large ranges and many dont even do what they say they do in the manual) and items which totally invalidate player stat distribution choices are neither reflective of gamist or simulationist game design approaches. These flaws are just flaws.

 

[Sensuki]

I do not think Pillars of Eternity has a good stat implementation either. At least certainly not the upcoming version without accuracy anyway. They went a bit overboard. The one thing the system has over D&D is that every class gets *something* combat related from all attributes. Once again - gamism perspective over simulationist (who would cry at the system). However in many cases that something doesn't look like it's going to be extremely helpful. I think many people will simply ignore Perception and Resolve again. I know I will be.

Also, regarding the Bracers of Dexterity. If you already have 18 Dexterity, then they're useless aren't they. In the BG games you can roll stats, and I've always had 18 Dex on every character. So that item has only been useful for NPCs (Minsc - almost every time). Personally I don't have a gripe with that kind of design as long as the game accomodates for the inflated stats.

Also regardless of whether those items are balanced - the people here have a point that those items are a) cool to find, and b) special

I prefer that kind of stuff to PE's you can craft any item to give +2 Dexterity.

 

[Athelas]

I do not think Pillars of Eternity has a good stat implementation either. At least certainly not the upcoming version without accuracy anyway. They went a bit overboard. The one thing the system has over D&D is that every class gets *something* combat related from all attributes. Once again - gamism perspective over simulationist (who would cry at the system). However in many cases that something doesn't look like it's going to be extremely helpful. I think many people will simply ignore Perception and Resolve again. I know I will be.

What do you think about the deflection bonus PER and RES now give? With the increased miss range, it should me more valuable.

 

[Sensuki]

Nah man, it's shit. Just bump CON. To get the same DEF bonus that you got in the v392 system, you need to spend 16 fucking attribute points. Why not spend those on CON for a 24-30% increase in Stamina/Health and put the rest into another useful ability instead.

+24% Health > +8 Deflection any day, most like.

 

[Shevek]

I dunno, PoE's upcoming stat system as 1 dump stat in my book (resolve - I am already planning Perception heavy barbarians and archers) and no clearly OP main stat (thanks to taking accuracy out). I can already see how some classes could benefit from different stat arrays in that system. Items may enhance my choices with additive bonuses but never invalidate. All this sounds much much better than IE.

Edit: I think an interupt heavy barb or archer would be more valuable for me than one with high hp but the fact we can debate that speaks well of the system.

 

[Athelas]

Nah man, it's shit. Just bump CON. To get the same DEF bonus that you got in the v392 system, you need to spend 16 fucking attribute points. Why not spend those on CON for a 24-30% increase in Stamina/Health and put the rest into another useful ability instead.

+24% Health > +8 Deflection any day, most like.

You're viewing them in isolation. You can stack the deflection from stats with shield and other bonuses though. If you can get in a comfortable range where certain enemies will only graze/miss you, this strikes me as preferable than having more HP. Since everything in PoE hits like a truck anyway, being able to dodge damage seems better than being able to better absorb it. It also gives you more leeway with armor, since you won't need as much DR to absorb damage, which improves your attack speed. Of course this all depends on how the final values are tuned.

 

[Sensuki]

For 18 Perception, you will get a grand total of +24% Interrupt. For Bows and 1H weapons, that's 30-40 at most, and will give you an Interrupt score of 37.2 or 49.6. When Interrupt calculation is changed to additive, 18 Perception and Interrupting Blows will give you 41.7 (30) and 55.6 (40) Interrupt.

Interrupt results are affected by the hit chance, as well.

Dual wielding Stiletto Interrupt Barbarians with their Carnage AoE hit would be interesting as the extra interrupt is probably worth more than bonus damage on Carnage hits (due to them being low damage), but that's about the only case in the game where I can see it being useful - which is not a good attribute IMO.

Personally I think Interrupt would be better suited to Dexterity, and Accuracy brought back in. That would give Dex the extra oomph, and make designing a fast attacking low damage character really viable.

You're viewing them in isolation. You can stack deflection with shield and other bonuses though. If you can get in a comfortable range where certain enemies will only graze/miss you, this strikes me as preferable than having more HP. Since everything in PoE hits like a truck anyway, being able to dodge damage seems better than being able to better absorb it. It also gives you more leeway with armor, since you won't need as much DR to absorb damage. Of course this all depends on how the final values are tuned.

I am viewing them in isolation, because I am viewing them based on what they are worth per attribute point. In our attribute paper, Matt plotted that +1 Deflection is better than +2% Stamina from CON when your Deflection is 6 or more points higher than enemy accuracy, and CON is better if it is not. CON now gives +3% and PER/RES give +1, which means that unless you have absolute bullshit Deflection, CON will grant more survivability.

Stacking Deflection (and I mean stacking it) is not useful in this game, it just plain sucks. Monsters now deal less damage. Damage stacking is now additive. Crits deal less damage. Deflection (and Accuracy) are no longer as vital.

 

[Athelas]

I am viewing them in isolation, because I am viewing them based on what they are worth per attribute point.

Why? Your ability to increase your HP through gear and talents is much more limited (if at all present). There are also the abilities/talents that convert a graze to a miss (or something similar).

In our attribute paper, Matt plotted that +1 Deflection is better than +2% Stamina from CON when your Deflection is 6 or more points higher than enemy accuracy, and CON is better if it is not. CON now gives +3% and PER/RES give +1, which means that unless you have absolute bullshit Deflection, CON will grant more survivability.

The miss range has been changed now though.

Are you working with 10 as the minimum base for attributes? They go down to 3, so the gap between lowest and highest is bigger.

 

[Shevek]

Again, the fact that this is even a debate and that its understood that stats have values which impact various builds within assorted classes (in some way) speaks volumes of the system.

 

[Sensuki]

One attribute being useful for one build of one class is not good design. Also the debate only showcases how difficult it is to determine the REAL value of an attribute point. The actual benefits are obfuscated by formulas / calculations, which IMO is not good.

Why? Your ability to increase your HP through gear and talents is much more limited (if at all present). There are also the abilities/talents that convert a graze to a miss (or something similar).

What have either of these facts got to do with how you spend your attribute points?

The miss range has been changed now though.

Yep. But as I said. Overall damage has been reduced and crits now deal less damage and are harder to score. Damage multiplier stacking is not as powerful, and grazes now deal more damage.

I think this swings against Deflection, more than anything.

 

[Shevek]

"One attribute being useful for one build of one class is not good design. Also the debate only showcases how difficult it is to determine the REAL value of an attribute point. The actual benefits are obfuscated by formulas / calculations, which IMO is not good."

I mentioned barbarians and archer (fighters, rangers or rogues) types (to interupt from afar). Thats multiple classes. Also perception could be useful for other classes as well. A sneak attacking dual wielding rogue with fast weapons (or even a Skaen priest). Thats many classes. I am sure it could be useful for more.

 

[Athelas]

What about a high-Interrupt wizard relying on his passive blast ability to keep multiple enemies from acting?

Also the debate only showcases how difficult it is to determine the REAL value of an attribute point. The actual benefits are obfuscated by formulas / calculations, which IMO is not good.

I don't see how it's any different from not knowing how your AC will play out against the enemy's Thac0. Perception and Resolve do have a problem with their main effect being situational, which makes their effect difficult to measure.

Yep. But as I said. Overall damage has been reduced and crits now deal less damage and are harder to score.

The 'dilemma' I presented was about being in the graze/miss range. In this situation, you're already 'safe' from the crit range. And at any rate, crits still deal more damage (and can more easily bypass DR), they're just not as insane as they used to be.

Damage multiplier stacking is not as powerful, and grazes now deal more damage.

By how much though? Unlike crits, their base effect hasn't been changed.

What have either of these facts got to do with how you spend your attribute points?

Uhm, because you might want to keep future talents and gear in mind when you're creating a character?

 

[Sensuki]

Additive damage multipliers means that other multipliers can offset the graze reduction. An example formula: Instead of 10 * 0.5 * 1.24 (Might) = 6.2, the formula becomes 10 * (1-0.5+0.24 = 0.74) = 7.4

Wizards have 10 lower accuracy than other classes, and even with Weapon Focus, Wand attacks aren't that quick. IMO those would be wasted points. Bows also, are not that quick. I think interrupt is only good when attacking quickly.

I don't see how it's any different from not knowing how your AC will play out against the enemy's Thac0.

You can learn by scoring hits/metagaming the AC numbers. Stuff like how effective bonus interrupt or concentration is, is *really* difficult to work out.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Poor stat implementation (where stats are garbage or garbage between large ranges and many dont even do what they say they do in the manual) and items which totally invalidate player stat distribution choices are neither reflective of gamist or simulationist game design approaches. These flaws are just flaws.

They don't, they either greatly help your char/party member or free you slot for other useful items. If my char/party member has a natural 18 DEX then he has no use for bracers of DEX but he may use gauntlets of weapon expertise instead.

The attractiveness of such items lies in them having a great impact (in addition to background story and nice illustration) compared to games in which similarly themed items give a negligent stat bonus that you're likely gonna use on a char that has that attribute maxed out anyway (in order to stack bonuses), you're not gonna use it to drastically improve someone's weakness but rather to get a barely noticeable increase in effectiveness.

You can consider BG series' itemization to be a flaw all you like but that's nowhere near being a widely accepted opinion. From what I've seen, most RPG fans love BG2 itemization and certainly wouldn't trade it for a system in which you can barely differentiate between the supposed unique items and the stuff your band of rookie adventurers can craft themselves.

 

[Shevek]

Criticisms of BG2's itemization are not exclusive to me. Debates over it date back to its release (google BG2 Monty Haul). Using your "gut feelings" to determine what the "widely held opinion" is (for whatever that is worth) is a fairly useless argument.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Criticisms of BG2's itemization are not exclusive to me. Debates over it date back to its release (google BG2 Monty Haul).

Didn't say it was but I certainly believe that people that think BG2's itemization is piss poor and a clear flaw that needs to be fixed (with all the usual Sawyer's subtlety) are in the minority which should concern Sawyer (if I'm right) given how he often uses "what is good for the majority of players" argument to explain his design decisions. I doubt this is the crowd that gets off on banal MMO/Diablo-like itemization.

Using your "gut feelings" to determine what the "widely held opinion" is (for whatever that is worth) is a fairly useless argument.

Says a guy who uses his gut feeling to determine that all of PoE detractors have suddenly changed their tune and will beg OE for the sequel the minute they taste it's greatness.

 

[Shevek]

Lol, well, I guess we shall wait and see, eh?

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Sure, I'm gonna love the shit out of the game regardless (and enjoy it far more than the other kickstarter darlings). I will easily look past it's faults (perceived or not) and enjoy it for the stuff it will do well.

 

[Athelas]

I'm sure the equipment will have excellently written backstories and that modders will be able to beef up their effects.

Sure, I'm gonna love the shit out of the game regardless (and enjoy it far more than the other kickstarter darlings). I will easily look past it's faults (perceived or not) and enjoy it for the stuff it will do well.

Out of curiosity, do you have access to the beta?

 

[ZagorTeNej]

I'm sure the equipment will have excellently written backstories and that modders will be able to beef up their effects.

Out of curiosity, do you have access to the beta?

No, but I think I've seen/read enough about it to have a reasonably good idea what to expect. I also have faith in OE (even though it may not always seem that way) and consider them to be more talented RPG designers than InXile/Larian (or anyone else on the market aside from indie devs like Iron Tower and Styg/Dejan).

 

[Athelas]

No

This may be why you have such a positive outlook.

I already know I will be using some mods to remove some of my annoyances about the game.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

This may be why you have such a positive outlook.

I already know I will be using some mods to remove some of my annoyances about the game.

Well, one of my all-time favourites is Arcanum so I have a high tolerance when it comes to flawed gems.

 

[Shevek]

Nice way to hedge your bets.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Obsidian is about as sure bet as it gets when it comes to writing and C&C, I love the visuals (including the Darklands type CYOAs), setting seems more interesting than FR and I have a preference for isometric party based RPGs in general. I expect I won't like itemization, attribute system and engagement mechanic and while I don't think encounter design will be anywhere as good as BG2 I expect it to be comparable to other IE games.

I didn't flip-flop, I always said (way before the most recent stream) I expect PoE to be a good to very good game (with expansion and sequel having the potential to be great). Criticizing Sawyer and some of his design decisions doesn't mean I think the game will be crap or something.

 

[Nihiliste]

Mods will fix a lot, but not itemization or the actual encounter design unfortunately. But at least they might potential fix attributes/engagement and other annoyances.