Torment and the Nameless One's past

[Helton]

He is aware in the sub-conscious, though. Thoughout the game he can influence a high wisdom character. I think he could have come to regret everything long afterwards.

 

[Phelot]

I just thought the regret came later. As I recall he was mean to Ravel. Didn't we get a sensory stone detailing the exchange?

Yeah, we get to remember the moment when he meets Ravel and tells her he has an impossible challenge for her (not sure it's in a sensory stone, however). He's definitely being manipulative but that doesn't mean his intentions are purely selfish.

The fact is Ravel tells us she killed the original incarnation just after the ritual to see how well it had worked (that's when she discovered the loss of memory problem). So the original incarnation did not have time to become a better man after the ritual. That means he already had the state of mind we find in the Good Incarnation we eventually meet : peaceful and remorseful.

Very interesting thread. I love a game with a lot of questions left after the game is over.

About Ravel, if I remember correctly, he is being rather manipulative. I believe he keeps referring to her as "beautiful Ravel" and as powerful as she must be, she still seems totally enamored with him.

One question I had from this: http://www.bootstrike.com/Torment/Online/tti4.html

This incarnation was also responsible for an amazing discovery. He found someone who told him his mind was weakening with every death of an incarnation, and who, somehow, was able to prevent memories from slipping away upon death. Unfortunately, this discovery would only benefit a future incarnation. Predictably, the 'insane' incarnation butchered his helper.

Is this implying that anytime TNO died previous to this discovery, he would lose his memory? I thought it was explained that he only lost his memory after a particularly tragic death, or at least a brutal one.

 

[Redeye]

... back when the closest thing to the internet was local BBS's run on 16k TRS-80s with a 300 baud modem, ?
...
Qwinn

I'm sure you know the internet did exist then.

The Web is what made it all really cook.

 

[Erebus]

This incarnation was also responsible for an amazing discovery. He found someone who told him his mind was weakening with every death of an incarnation, and who, somehow, was able to prevent memories from slipping away upon death. Unfortunately, this discovery would only benefit a future incarnation. Predictably, the 'insane' incarnation butchered his helper.

Is this implying that anytime TNO died previous to this discovery, he would lose his memory? I thought it was explained that he only lost his memory after a particularly tragic death, or at least a brutal one.

That's also what I thought at first. But it seems that TNO actually lost his memory every time he died until the beginning of the game. Paranoid's diary tells he met someone who told him he would stop losing his memories after three more incarnations (not sure if the guy actually did something or just foretold what would happen ; anyway, Paranoid killed him).

 

[Qwinn]

This incarnation was also responsible for an amazing discovery. He found someone who told him his mind was weakening with every death of an incarnation, and who, somehow, was able to prevent memories from slipping away upon death. Unfortunately, this discovery would only benefit a future incarnation. Predictably, the 'insane' incarnation butchered his helper.

Is this implying that anytime TNO died previous to this discovery, he would lose his memory? I thought it was explained that he only lost his memory after a particularly tragic death, or at least a brutal one.

That's also what I thought at first. But it seems that TNO actually lost his memory every time he died until the beginning of the game. Paranoid's diary tells he met someone who told him he would stop losing his memories after three more incarnations (not sure if the guy actually did something or just foretold what would happen ; anyway, Paranoid killed him).

Yeah, Chris Avellone backed this up at some point, I believe. Apparently, what was happening was Ravel's gift was "breaking down", and because of that, you'd keep your memory when you died, but after a limited number of additional deaths soon you'd lose your mind altogether and remember nothing. So the game represents TNO's last chance to figure out what is happening to him.

I wasn't all that thrilled with that explanation, personally. It just seems odd that you can get a 25 Intelligence and 25 Wisdom while you're on the verge of mental breakdown. I think a better way to have explained your keeping your memories intact in-game is that you only lost them when you were killed by the shadows of your regret. That would've made TO more threatening, and the Fortress -really- feel dangerous. Course, this would've required other changes. Being killed by shadows would have to be permanent death, and no more Morte being saved by you being run over by a cart in the street, for example - but I think it would've been more coherent in the long run, oh well.

Qwinn

 

[Korgan]

HHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEE WWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSS AAAAAAAAAA JJJJJJJJJJEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Jim Cojones]

Yeah, Chris Avellone backed this up at some point, I believe.

http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/article?articleid=56

Every time the Nameless One dies before the start of the game, his personality is erased.

[...]

As the start of the game, however, Ravel's "blessing" is breaking down, and the Nameless One is actually able to remember his previous deaths up until the start of the game. Ironically, this coincides with the fact that his mental degradation is also escalating, and the longer he is killed and reborn, he will eventually become nothing more than a mindless zombie that is impossible to kill. Once he loses his will, there will be no way for him to save himself - or at least discover what drove him to this state. The events of the game is his last chance in his lifetimes to put things right.

 

[aweigh]

mca's explenation is just fine; d&d stats are superfluous, they don't dictate plot.

also Qwinn should be banned because of the sig thing.

 

[Qwinn]

mca's explenation is just fine; d&d stats are superfluous, they don't dictate plot.

Sigh, okay, how about "It is weird that you can become so infinitely wise and intelligent that you can unmake your incredibly powerful adversary just with your thoughts, while you're in the middle of a mental breakdown." The point wasn't about -stats-, it was about your being able to actually achieve virtually godlike mental abilities just prior to becoming a witless zombie. This is not stats dictating plot, this is plot contradicting plot. Doesn't really compute.

That said, of course what they came up with is "fine"... it'll -do-... I just think tying memory loss to shadow attacks would've been cooler/better. Would've made shadows and TO a much more threatening enemy.

also Qwinn should be banned because of the sig thing.

Oh noes, what would I do then?? I'll stop using my sig right away.

Qwinn

 

[Phelot]

This incarnation was also responsible for an amazing discovery. He found someone who told him his mind was weakening with every death of an incarnation, and who, somehow, was able to prevent memories from slipping away upon death. Unfortunately, this discovery would only benefit a future incarnation. Predictably, the 'insane' incarnation butchered his helper.

Is this implying that anytime TNO died previous to this discovery, he would lose his memory? I thought it was explained that he only lost his memory after a particularly tragic death, or at least a brutal one.

That's also what I thought at first. But it seems that TNO actually lost his memory every time he died until the beginning of the game. Paranoid's diary tells he met someone who told him he would stop losing his memories after three more incarnations (not sure if the guy actually did something or just foretold what would happen ; anyway, Paranoid killed him).

Yeah, Chris Avellone backed this up at some point, I believe. Apparently, what was happening was Ravel's gift was "breaking down", and because of that, you'd keep your memory when you died, but after a limited number of additional deaths soon you'd lose your mind altogether and remember nothing. So the game represents TNO's last chance to figure out what is happening to him.

I wasn't all that thrilled with that explanation, personally. It just seems odd that you can get a 25 Intelligence and 25 Wisdom while you're on the verge of mental breakdown. I think a better way to have explained your keeping your memories intact in-game is that you only lost them when you were killed by the shadows of your regret. That would've made TO more threatening, and the Fortress -really- feel dangerous. Course, this would've required other changes. Being killed by shadows would have to be permanent death, and no more Morte being saved by you being run over by a cart in the street, for example - but I think it would've been more coherent in the long run, oh well.

Qwinn

So, TNO would eventually fall into a catatonic state or would he just be so insane he wouldn't be able to function? I agree, I don't really care for that explanation as well... in fact it almost makes it seem as though it was put in just to give a sense of urgency, which I thought was already there:

I thought it was cool that basically the Paranoid incarnation fucks over any other incarnation by destroying any evidence of what is really going on followed up by TO killing off or manipulating the deaths of anyone that can tell TNO about the Fortress or of his condition such as Ravel, Pharod and Trias. I thought this was explanation enough for the urgency of beating the game. The only problem with it is, wouldn't Morte and Dakkon be a bit more of a threat then anyone else since they've actually been to the fortress? Though now that I think about it, didn't they forget for some reason?

All in all, I think a more frightening ending would be the idea that TNO could end up wondering the planes, never knowing who he is and with no one left to guide him or give him a clue. At that point I suppose TO could even stop sending shadows after him since their only purpose is to slow him down anyway, right? Then again, I guess it would get boring sitting in a floating fortress all day...

 

[Korgan]

HHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEE WWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSS AAAAAAAAAA JJJJJJJJJJEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Erebus]

The only problem with it is, wouldn't Morte and Dakkon be a bit more of a threat then anyone else since they've actually been to the fortress? Though now that I think about it, didn't they forget for some reason?

I don't think they did. Morte explains that (1) he wasn't sure he could trust this incarnation, (2) he had seen Practical get his butt kicked in the Fortress in spite of all his cunning and power and (3) he really doesn't want to go there because the place scares him. The first two reasons probably also apply to Dakkon (and while he may not be as afraid as Morte, his psychological enslavement probably didn't make him feel like taking any initiative).

 

[Qwinn]

At one point Morte makes it clear that the Practical Incarnation didn't share any details about where they were going, what they were doing, etc. They might've been able to mention once going through a portal in the mortuary, but it's doubtful Practical shared any other details... like, the key to that portal, or what the purpose was in going to the other side.

Course, he could've solved his whole "everyone who knows how to get to the Fortress is dead" problem by telling everyone he meets and leaving a whole crapload of notes around the mortuary and Sigil, but, eh, whatever, poetic license...

I was always curious what regret Practical would've picked for his key, heh. Since he hardly seems to have any. Maybe it was of the "I regret that I have no regrets" variety.

Qwinn

 

[Phelot]

At one point Morte makes it clear that the Practical Incarnation didn't share any details about where they were going, what they were doing, etc. They might've been able to mention once going through a portal in the mortuary, but it's doubtful Practical shared any other details... like, the key to that portal, or what the purpose was in going to the other side.

Course, he could've solved his whole "everyone who knows how to get to the Fortress is dead" problem by telling everyone he meets and leaving a whole crapload of notes around the mortuary and Sigil, but, eh, whatever, poetic license...

I was always curious what regret Practical would've picked for his key, heh. Since he hardly seems to have any. Maybe it was of the "I regret that I have no regrets" variety.

Qwinn

Probably something evil like "I regret having to put up with this annoying woman who will haunt me forever."