The writing in this game is average

[Bleed the Man]

I'm sorry, but your claim just falls apart from the moment that for Thaos plan to work is imperative that animancy gets blamed. It's all that matters, all he's done is with that purpose in mind. You don't leave the decision that will make your plan succeed or fail in the hands of other than yourself.

I mean, blaiming animancy is the cause that hundreds of children are born without soul. You don't go to such extremes and leave this kind of decisions to fate.

Why not actually deal with my points instead of repeating your position after I refuted it as if it answers the arguments:

"Third, he is not personally at the asylum when you meet him there, implying he can keep control over bodies from a long distance. If he was planning to assassinate the Duc he should already be in the animancer's body. Instead he shows up personally and risks exposure because he was never planning on it and thus did not get the chance to hijack the body before the hearing."

This stands even if I grant that Thaos had to do it himself.

To make matters worse he's just chilling in the Asylum until you chase him out. No urgency whatsoever even though the Duc could make a pronouncement any moment. It's obvious that nigga had no plan to kill the Duc until you forced his hand.

But even if I granted this third point, which I could do (Thaos showing up is to make clear to the player that he's responsible of this actions), that wouldn't make your position that the duc's assassination is a bandaid stronger, it just would mean that the execution of this segment could be done better. The key of my argument is that the entire motivation for Thaos character is the outcome of that hearing. If you can't refute that with more than "the duc is a reasonable man that would ban animancy" I can't think that you're right.

 

[Lord Andre]

When you need a cutscene that takes away the player's control to move the plot along then it's a shitty plot. Rest is irrelevant.

 

[Angthoron]

Thaos must be either super bored, or an over-achiever. Sets up a plan that takes decades to execute, while all along he could be jumping into Animancers, making them pee on babies, kill government officials and self-immolate atop a random outhouse.

There ya go, problem solved, you've proven animancy leads to madness and dying.

 

[Irenaeus]

When you need a cutscene that takes away the player's control to move the plot along then it's a shitty plot. Rest is irrelevant.

False, I already explained that the PC (Inissan the Wild Orlan ranger in my case) was too absorbed to notice some guy in the crowd. The killing took literally less than 5 seconds.

Plot is great.

Thaos must be either super bored, or an over-achiever. Sets up a plan that takes decades to execute, while all along he could be jumping into Animancers, making them pee on babies, kill government officials and self-immolate atop a random outhouse.

There ya go, problem solved, you've proven animancy leads to madness and dying.

If he did that, people would notice that Animancers were being possessed. Also, jumping into another body is probably super exausting for him and only reserved for rare occasions.

 

[Mastermind]

But even if I granted this third point, which I could do (Thaos showing up is to make clear to the player that he's responsible of this actions), that wouldn't make your position that the duc's assassination is a bandaid stronger, it just would mean that the execution of this segment could be done better.

This is a non-answer. You could dismiss any point on either side by claiming "the writing is retarded". Let's stick to what actually happens instead of dismissing it as "it could have been done better". And what happens is that Thanos unnecessarily exposes himself after lounging in an asylum with no sense of urgency instead of hijacking the Animancer's body and killing the Duc as soon as the hearings start.

The key of my argument is that the entire motivation for Thaos character is the outcome of that hearing. If you can't refute that with more than "the duc is a reasonable man that would ban animancy" I can't think that you're right.

There is nothing to refute because there is zero evidence that the outcome of that hearing was going to go against him. It's not just that the Duc is reasonable, it's that animancy is loathed and animancers were getting raped at the hearing (just like he planned). In fact having an animancer kill the Duc could backfire because it's such a stupid move on their part. Why would Animancers kill the Duc when they're already in a very delicate position?

And again, even if this was the case THERE IS NO REASON FOR THAOS TO BE THERE PERSONALLY. If he was planning the assassination he should have hijacked the Animancer rep (he doesn't need to be there for you to sense him) well before the hearings instead of languishing in an asylum.

 

[Mastermind]

Also, jumping into another body is probably super exausting for him and only reserved for rare occasions.

He hops through multiple bodies in quick succession at the Sanitarium.

 

[Irenaeus]

Also, jumping into another body is probably super exausting for him and only reserved for rare occasions.

He hops through multiple bodies in quick succession at the Sanitarium.

Weak minded souls, constructs, etc., not real people. We've been there.

Thanos unnecessarily exposes himself after lounging in an asylum with no sense of urgency instead of hijacking the Animancer's body and killing the Duc as soon as the hearings start.

He was busy doing other stuff and the Duc was not coming to a conclusion soon enough.

 

[Angthoron]

If he did that, people would notice that Animancers were being possessed.

1: How? Nobody notices it in the actual plot, not in the center of animancy research, not in the Psychic CIA Central, not in Duke's palace.
2: So what? Even if someone notices it, how does it become less cautionary/alarming? Guy is possessed! Another guy is possessed! Correlation = causation! Animancy leads to madness/possession/death, fuck animancy.

Also, jumping into another body is probably super exausting for him and only reserved for rare occasions.

Not if main plot is anything to go by. Asylum notes and asylum script shows off the ease with which he jumps around. Later, dude kills all of the CIA with what probably looked like a hilarious bunch of jumping between bodies. Duke's assassination barely broke his stride, in fact, it didn't, he put the SO POWERFUL DANGEROUS Watcher into a faint as though xir were a pregnant woman in front of a dirty sock.

It's certainly possible that it is as you say - but we're never actually shown the borders and limits of said powers. Which's kinda bad, because you need to set limits to your "systems" in order to show off the power magnitudes. Otherwise magic can feel like it's being pulled out of the ass.

Anyway, Thaos is probably what a codexer with magical powers of jumping accounts would be like. Trollfull and very very bored, creating elaborate storylines from the army of dummy accounts and possessed mains.

 

[Bleed the Man]

But even if I granted this third point, which I could do (Thaos showing up is to make clear to the player that he's responsible of this actions), that wouldn't make your position that the duc's assassination is a bandaid stronger, it just would mean that the execution of this segment could be done better.

This is a non-answer. You could dismiss any point on either side by claiming "the writing is retarded". Let's stick to what actually happens instead of dismissing it as "it could have been done better". And what happens is that Thanos unnecessarily exposes himself after lounging in an asylum with no sense of urgency instead of hijacking the Animancer's body and killing the Duc as soon as the hearings start.

The key of my argument is that the entire motivation for Thaos character is the outcome of that hearing. If you can't refute that with more than "the duc is a reasonable man that would ban animancy" I can't think that you're right.

There is nothing to refute because there is zero evidence that the outcome of that hearing was going to go against him. It's not just that the Duc is reasonable, it's that animancy is loathed and animancers were getting raped at the hearing (just like he planned). In fact having an animancer kill the Duc could backfire because it's such a stupid move on their part. Why would Animancers kill the Duc when they're already in a very delicate position?

And again, even if this was the case THERE IS NO REASON FOR THAOS TO BE THERE PERSONALLY. If he was planning the assassination he should have hijacked the Animancer rep (he doesn't need to be there for you to sense him) well before the hearings instead of languishing in an asylum.

We're just going in circles. I think is best to agree to disagree and let it rest.

 

[Lord Andre]

When you need a cutscene that takes away the player's control to move the plot along then it's a shitty plot. Rest is irrelevant.

False, I already explained that the PC (Inissan the Wild Orlan ranger in my case) was too absorbed to notice some guy in the crowd. The killing took literally less than 5 seconds.

Plot is great.

You're missing the point you idiot. It's an RPG. That cutscene breaks the contract between the game and me. The contract is: the game controls the NPCs and I control the PC. If you take away my control of the PC then it ain't a fucking RPG anymore.

This is what would have happened in a PnP session:

DM: The animancer delegate says : "We animancers don't recognise your judgement" and than he ca...
Player1: I shoot him in the head!
Player2: I cast Paralyze!
Player3: I also cast Paralyze!
Player4: I jump from the balcony!
DM: Wait guys, no, you can't ! I...
Players: We can't what ? Are you telling me what my character can or cannot try to do ? Let's check the game manual...
DM: No guys, I had this planned...
Players: Fuck you and your railroad plot shit!
Player1: I rolled a 20 and a 16, critical hit confirmed!
DM:

 

[Irenaeus]

If he did that, people would notice that Animancers were being possessed.

1: How? Nobody notices it in the actual plot, not in the center of animancy research, not in the Psychic CIA Central, not in Duke's palace.

Wtf are you talking about? The Watcher notices it and probably ciphers would notice it too.

2: So what? Even if someone notices it, how does it become less cautionary/alarming? Guy is possessed! Another guy is possessed! Correlation = causation! Animancy leads to madness/possession/death, fuck animancy.

Ciphers are not that stupid, neither was the Duc.

Also, jumping into another body is probably super exausting for him and only reserved for rare occasions.

Not if main plot is anything to go by. Asylum notes and asylum script shows off the ease with which he jumps around.

It's easy to jump around weak souls and constructs, refer to my Mastermind discussion.

Later, dude kills all of the CIA with what probably looked like a hilarious bunch of jumping between bodies. Duke's assassination barely broke his stride, in fact, it didn't, he put the SO POWERFUL DANGEROUS Watcher into a faint as though xir were a pregnant woman in front of a dirty sock.

I'm not sure what you mean by CIA, neither by your second sentence. Translate it for me, please.

It's certainly possible that it is as you say

Of course.

but we're never actually shown the borders and limits of said powers.

It is a mystary.

Which's kinda bad, because you need to set limits to your "systems" in order to show off the power magnitudes. Otherwise magic can feel like it's being pulled out of the ass.

I disagree, good myth and fantasy stories is full of mysteries.

Anyway, Thaos is probably what a codexer with magical powers of jumping accounts would be like. Trollfull and very very bored, creating elaborate storylines from the army of dummy accounts and possessed mains.

Are you saying Thaos is a djinn?

 

[Irenaeus]

But even if I granted this third point, which I could do (Thaos showing up is to make clear to the player that he's responsible of this actions), that wouldn't make your position that the duc's assassination is a bandaid stronger, it just would mean that the execution of this segment could be done better.

This is a non-answer. You could dismiss any point on either side by claiming "the writing is retarded". Let's stick to what actually happens instead of dismissing it as "it could have been done better". And what happens is that Thanos unnecessarily exposes himself after lounging in an asylum with no sense of urgency instead of hijacking the Animancer's body and killing the Duc as soon as the hearings start.

The key of my argument is that the entire motivation for Thaos character is the outcome of that hearing. If you can't refute that with more than "the duc is a reasonable man that would ban animancy" I can't think that you're right.

There is nothing to refute because there is zero evidence that the outcome of that hearing was going to go against him. It's not just that the Duc is reasonable, it's that animancy is loathed and animancers were getting raped at the hearing (just like he planned). In fact having an animancer kill the Duc could backfire because it's such a stupid move on their part. Why would Animancers kill the Duc when they're already in a very delicate position?

And again, even if this was the case THERE IS NO REASON FOR THAOS TO BE THERE PERSONALLY. If he was planning the assassination he should have hijacked the Animancer rep (he doesn't need to be there for you to sense him) well before the hearings instead of languishing in an asylum.

We're just going in circles. I think is best to agree to disagree and let it rest.

I'm actually doing great in refuting any claims as to bad or even average writing.

 

[Irenaeus]

When you need a cutscene that takes away the player's control to move the plot along then it's a shitty plot. Rest is irrelevant.

False, I already explained that the PC (Inissan the Wild Orlan ranger in my case) was too absorbed to notice some guy in the crowd. The killing took literally less than 5 seconds.

Plot is great.

You're missing the point you idiot. It's an RPG. That cutscene breaks the contract between the game and me. The contract is: the game controls the NPCs and I control the PC. If you take away my control of the PC then it ain't a fucking RPG anymore.

This is what would have happened in a PnP session:

DM: The animancer delegate says : "We animancers don't recognise your judgement" and than he ca...
Player1: I shoot him in the head!
Player2: I cast Paralyze!
Player3: I also cast Paralyze!
Player4: I jump from the balcony!
DM: Wait guys, no, you can't ! I...
Players: We can't what ? Are you telling me what my character can or cannot try to do ? Let's check the game manual...
DM: No guys, I had this planned...
Players: Fuck you and your railroad plot shit!
Player1: I rolled a 20 and a 16, critical hit confirmed!
DM:

Too slow, retard. Duc is dead.

 

[Bleed the Man]

I'm actually doing great in refuting any claims as to bad or even average writing.

Then continue fighting the good fight, soldier

 

[Irenaeus]

I'm actually doing great in refuting any claims as to bad or even average writing.

Then continue fighting the good fight, soldier

Sure, along with my other responsibilities (like finishing the game ).

 

[Mastermind]

Weak minded souls, constructs, etc., not real people. We've been there.

He's not supposed to be able to control "real" people at all, so no, we haven't been there. Anyway you pulled his jump limit out of your ass. There is zero evidence he has any serious limit on his jumps and clear evidence he does not.

He was busy doing other stuff and the Duc was not coming to a conclusion soon enough.

What other stuff? He was in the kid's body doing nothing until you run into him, and what does the Duc's conclusion not coming soon enough have to do with anything? He killed the Duc right before he gave his decision. All you are doing is confirming he did it impulsively, except your explanation is completely nonsensical.

 

[Irenaeus]

Weak minded souls, constructs, etc., not real people. We've been there.

He's not supposed to be able to control "real" people at all, so no, we haven't been there. Anyway you pulled his jump limit out of your ass. There is zero evidence he has any serious limit on his jumps and clear evidence he does not.

I pulled his jump limit out of my ass. The evidence for jump limits is the plot of the game, which doesn't show him possessing everyone in sight. He could possess the Duc and declare Animancy illegal. How about that?

He was busy doing other stuff and the Duc was not coming to a conclusion soon enough.

You didn't say that, I did.

What other stuff?

It's a mystary what he might have been doing. I'd bet he was furthering his cause.

He was in the kid's body doing nothing until you run into him,

I don't think he was in the kid's body all the time. I'd say he was informed of you coming near the kid by one of his informants inside the inner circle of the Sanitarium, then he possessed the kid again.

and what does the Duc's conclusion not coming soon enough have to do with anything?

Means he has more time to further his plots.

He killed the Duc right before he gave his decision.

Makes sense, imagine if the Duc had made Animancy legal!

All you are doing is confirming he did it impulsively, except your explanation is completely nonsensical.

I'm making a case that he had a good plan for blaming Animancy for terrible things and all went according to plan mastermindly.

 

[Mastermind]

Weak minded souls, constructs, etc., not real people. We've been there.

He's not supposed to be able to control "real" people at all, so no, we haven't been there. Anyway you pulled his jump limit out of your ass. There is zero evidence he has any serious limit on his jumps and clear evidence he does not.

I pulled his jump limit out of my ass. The evidence for jump limits is the plot of the game, which doesn't show him possessing everyone in sight. He could possess the Duc and declare Animancy illegal. How about that?

We were talking about limitations on the number of jumps, not the potency of the people he can target. Obviously he can't possess everyone.

 

[Bleed the Man]

Weak minded souls, constructs, etc., not real people. We've been there.

He's not supposed to be able to control "real" people at all, so no, we haven't been there. Anyway you pulled his jump limit out of your ass. There is zero evidence he has any serious limit on his jumps and clear evidence he does not.

I pulled his jump limit out of my ass. The evidence for jump limits is the plot of the game, which doesn't show him possessing everyone in sight. He could possess the Duc and declare Animancy illegal. How about that?

We were talking about limitations on the number of jumps, not the potency of the people he can target. Obviously he can't possess everyone.

My two cents:

"My original argument wasn't that they had to be very weak (although I would say so if Thaos was to perform a trick like the one at the sanitarium. There's a reason why the girl with an awakened soul don't get possesed, or the other patients that aren't in the cells)"

There's no explicit answer in the game of course, but considering all you learn about this power and how it works when you trace Thaos' soul back to when he's inside the hollowborn child, I'd say is pretty likely.

 

[Irenaeus]

Weak minded souls, constructs, etc., not real people. We've been there.

He's not supposed to be able to control "real" people at all, so no, we haven't been there. Anyway you pulled his jump limit out of your ass. There is zero evidence he has any serious limit on his jumps and clear evidence he does not.

I pulled his jump limit out of my ass. The evidence for jump limits is the plot of the game, which doesn't show him possessing everyone in sight. He could possess the Duc and declare Animancy illegal. How about that?

We were talking about limitations on the number of jumps, not the potency of the people he can target. Obviously he can't possess everyone.

Here's another rule I just made up: number of jumps allowed to constructs and weak souled retards is very high.

 

[Angthoron]

If he did that, people would notice that Animancers were being possessed.

1: How? Nobody notices it in the actual plot, not in the center of animancy research, not in the Psychic CIA Central, not in Duke's palace.

Wtf are you talking about? The Watcher notices it and probably ciphers would notice it too.

You guys here should make up your mind. It seems that when it's convenient to your arguments, Witcher notices it, when it isn't, he doesn't. Wasn't the cardinal line of argument for non-involvement in the trial a "Oh he doesn't see it"?

2: So what? Even if someone notices it, how does it become less cautionary/alarming? Guy is possessed! Another guy is possessed! Correlation = causation! Animancy leads to madness/possession/death, fuck animancy.

Ciphers are not that stupid, neither was the Duc.

Another line not supported by the game itself. You mean there were no ciphers at that Triumph of Animancy display that got hijacked by Thaos, where half the town came to watch? Unless of course Ciphers did Defiance Bay 9/11.

Also, jumping into another body is probably super exausting for him and only reserved for rare occasions.

Not if main plot is anything to go by. Asylum notes and asylum script shows off the ease with which he jumps around.

It's easy to jump around weak souls and constructs, refer to my Mastermind discussion.

What was the trial animancer's soul strength level? Near-zero? Is that why he was chosen to represent animancy? The dean? Whom the CIA no doubt scanned pre-meeting? Nope, he was probably fairly mid-level, and Thaos gives no fucks. It's splitting hair, though, since either way, even if very tiring, a 2000+ y.o. immortalish dude has plenty of time.

Later, dude kills all of the CIA with what probably looked like a hilarious bunch of jumping between bodies. Duke's assassination barely broke his stride, in fact, it didn't, he put the SO POWERFUL DANGEROUS Watcher into a faint as though xir were a pregnant woman in front of a dirty sock.

I'm not sure what you mean by CIA, neither by your second sentence. Translate it for me, please.

Cipher Intelligence Agency massacre. PC fainting after the trial.

Which's kinda bad, because you need to set limits to your "systems" in order to show off the power magnitudes. Otherwise magic can feel like it's being pulled out of the ass.

I disagree, good myth and fantasy stories is full of mysteries.

No. See, there's a difference here. Jesus doing miracles in context of no-one else being capable of doing miracles vs Jesus doing miracles in a world where everyone can potentially do the same, for example. In Bible's case, you contextually know that this is out of the ordinary. In a work with a completely made-up setting, you need a context framework to be able to do the same. Plenty of Fantasy stuff fucks this up, in fact it's so prevalent that you probably won't be able to say that it's a fuck-up, it's just a genre feature by now. However, it doesn't mean that it's good world building. Setting up borders doesn't mean you remove the myth and the mystery, you simply make the reader/viewer/player aware of what's considered SUPER in the setting.

Anyway, Thaos is probably what a codexer with magical powers of jumping accounts would be like. Trollfull and very very bored, creating elaborate storylines from the army of dummy accounts and possessed mains.

Are you saying Thaos is a djinn?

Well, he does offer many possibilities to DISCUSS.

 

[Irenaeus]

If he did that, people would notice that Animancers were being possessed.

1: How? Nobody notices it in the actual plot, not in the center of animancy research, not in the Psychic CIA Central, not in Duke's palace.

Wtf are you talking about? The Watcher notices it and probably ciphers would notice it too.

You guys here should make up your mind. It seems that when it's convenient to your arguments, Witcher notices it, when it isn't, he doesn't. Wasn't the cardinal line of argument for non-involvement in the trial a "Oh he doesn't see it"?

I think the Watcher watches the possession but it happens too fast for him to intervene. I think the Watches doesn't watch when Thaos enters the room and kneels (or something) to possess.

Ciphers are not that stupid, neither was the Duc.

Another line not supported by the game itself. You mean there were no ciphers at that Triumph of Animancy display that got hijacked by Thaos, where half the town came to watch? Unless of course Ciphers did Defiance Bay 9/11.

Maybe the ciphers did notice something weird about the possession at the Triumph of Animancy display that got hijacked by Thaos, which was super quick btw. The Duc wasn't an idiot and he wasn't turned against Animancy just by this event. He just grew suspicious.

 

[Angthoron]

If he did that, people would notice that Animancers were being possessed.

1: How? Nobody notices it in the actual plot, not in the center of animancy research, not in the Psychic CIA Central, not in Duke's palace.

Wtf are you talking about? The Watcher notices it and probably ciphers would notice it too.

You guys here should make up your mind. It seems that when it's convenient to your arguments, Witcher notices it, when it isn't, he doesn't. Wasn't the cardinal line of argument for non-involvement in the trial a "Oh he doesn't see it"?

I think the Watcher watches the possession but it happens too fast for him to intervene. I think the Watches doesn't watch when Thaos enters the room and kneels (or something) to possess.

Yeah okay, that works. To be fair, I'd have thrown out the "not-seen" part of the cutscene, always hated cutscenes that show you more than your character should know about the plot. Prolly a lot of butthurt would be avoided if suddenly there's a shimmering light hitting ass and leg of the animancer and then the duke's attacked.

 

[MrMarbles]

I've only skimmed the last 30 pages to avoid edginess overdose, so don't know if this has been mentioned, but I thought the writing at the end of the pantheon quest was excellent. The deity descriptions in general were pretty spot on, and did not feel nearly as generic as some here have claimed.

Combined with some ridiculously good-looking end slides

Spoiler

especially the carcass of the Adra dragon and the view of the tower in Twin Elms

it was enough to enjoy the last few hours of the game despite the anti-climactic bossfight.

 

[Lord Andre]

Too slow, retard. Duc is dead.

Right... because Thaos can instant cast an instant kill spell. 11/10 story GOTY