The writing in this game is average

[Orderian]

That's wise.
Don't support games where Sawyer is involved.

Out of curiosity, why avoid Sawyer? It was the fact MCA was involved that drew me to PoE, but as it turns out, he was barely involved. This makes me worried about T:ToN...

 

[mastroego]

Out of curiosity, why avoid Sawyer? It was the fact MCA was involved that drew me to PoE, but as it turns out, he was barely involved.

Yeah, that's no coincidence you know. And Avellone has recently left Obsidian altogether.
It's the Saw. Effect.

 

[Volrath]

Yeah, that's no coincidence you know. And Avellone has recently left Obsidian altogether.
It's the Saw. Effect.

 

[Orderian]

Yeah, that's no coincidence you know. And Avellone has recently left Obsidian altogether.
It's the Saw. Effect.

So, is Sawyer a bad developer, is that the implication? I did some quick checking about Numenera, seems MCA is overseeing all the story, lets hope that his presence and expertise are listened to as the guy wrote over 800,000 words for PS:T.

 

[prodigydancer]

Ive been unable to play it, as I dont have a PC than can run it

Are you sure? At work I played PoE on a dual-core laptop with Intel gfx. Slightly choppy but no major slowdowns (with AA off).

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

So, is Sawyer a bad developer, is that the implication? I did some quick checking about Numenera, seems MCA is overseeing all the story, lets hope that his presence and expertise are listened to as the guy wrote over 800,000 words for PS:T.

To me, Sawyer seems very good at the logistical/management side, in that his projects tend to get done consistently and without major mismanagement drama. IWD and NWN2 were completed under pretty onerous circumstances.(New Vegas had alot of Bethesda BS thrown in the mix).

Where he falls short is that his game design seems to be competent but uninspired. So things will make sense on paper and systems will work as intended, but they won't really be particularly compelling.

IMO he overthinks design issues, so he would be very effective if he were managing a project under a briliiant space cadet type creative lead.

 

[mastroego]

So, is Sawyer a bad developer, is that the implication?

The argument has been debated to death over here.
I'm not sure it's wise to open it again.

Let's just say that there are MANY bad developers (obviously) but, to my knowledge, only one Sawyer-level developer.
Guess who's that.

 

[Fairfax]

Out of curiosity, why avoid Sawyer? It was the fact MCA was involved that drew me to PoE, but as it turns out, he was barely involved. This makes me worried about T:ToN...

This reminds me of how misleading the Kickstarter page was.

Obsidian Entertainment and our legendary game designers Chris Avellone, Tim Cain, and Josh Sawyer are excited to bring you a new role-playing game for the PC. Project Eternity (working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past: Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment.

Makes it look like they were going to lead and it was going to be the trio's dream project. MCA got 3/4 of his stuff cut and doesn't even want to take credit for what's in the final game. Tim did Stronghold stuff and a cookbook.
Does anyone think they would've earned the same amount of money if people knew this beforehand? Sure, they explained roles in updates and Q&A's but they still gave them apparently meaningful roles.

Honestly, I don't even blame Sawyer (I do in regards to cutting Durance/GM stuff, but that's a consequence of him being director), I blame Fergus for making him project director in the first place. Sawyer said he didn't even have to be part of the Kickstarter project, he just wanted them to make one. He was assigned a job and he did it, for better or worse.
The company's CEO should be the one getting the most flak, if you ask me.

 

[mastroego]

Fairfax, that's true enough.
But my original suggestion stands: don't support games where Sawyer is involved.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

Let's just say that there are MANY bad developers (obviously) but, to my knowledge, only one Sawyer-level developer.
Guess who's that.

Sawyer is uniquely capable of evoking hysterical overreaction on the codex if that's what you mean.

ETA: His games are not great, but they aren't horrific. Where they fail, they're just bland disappointments, not clusterfucks.

 

[mastroego]

They aren't horrific because there are other people involved too.
If it were for him they'd be stripped bare of anything that would make them recognizable as game entities.

 

[Orderian]

So, MCA left Obsidian over how bad PoE actually was? I really hope the people over at Exile give him WAY more control over the content of the next Torment.

 

[Fairfax]

Fairfax, that's true enough.
But my original suggestion stands: don't support games where Sawyer is involved.

That's a bit extreme. I'll definitely support games where he's not the project lead, or I'll buy them when they're extremely cheap at best.

So, MCA left Obsidian over how bad PoE actually was? I really hope the people over at Exile give him WAY more control over the content of the next Torment.

No one besides MCA, Fergus and whoever else was involved does. He did post this on facebook:

Honestly, I can't imagine one disagreement that could single-handedly make MCA leave. It was probably due to numerous things that were bothering him over time and it reached a breaking point more recently. None of the employees have said a word about it, he's not mentioned anymore and neither is his work (notice how they comissioned more art for PoE where Durance and the Grieving Mother are absent, just like every other artwork), not even the novella he said he's still going to deliver and is being edited.

What we do know is that he was having his role consistently reduced over the years. He became lead designer(and lead writer, I think?) for AP then director in 3/4 of FNV's DLCs.
After that he never got the same kind of role again. Not even in the company's cancelled projects, apparently. He then worked on Wasteland 2, FTL (for free) and PoE (we know how that turned out).

After 7 or 8 games without a meaningful role, as Creative Director, co-owner and co-founder of the company I'd be pretty pissed, but we don't know that he was.
As for Torment, do you mean Tides of Numenera or a potential sequel? Because even though he seems to be doing more stuff than he did in PoE, he's not calling the shots there either. Hopefully they'll stick to the original Torment's vision document and follow it like a bible. That would give us a remotely similar experience, at least.

 

[Crooked Bee]

What we do know is that he was having his role consistently reduced over the years.

Not necessarily. He was supposedly a lead on some secret project iirc. The fact that he left, however, might mean that project was canceled.

 

[Infinitron]

So, MCA left Obsidian over how bad PoE actually was? I really hope the people over at Exile give him WAY more control over the content of the next Torment.

Look at you people. Poisoning the minds of innocent newfags

 

[Fairfax]

Not necessarily. He was supposedly a lead on some secret project iirc. The fact that he left, however, might mean that project was canceled.

Well, we know he wasn't lead in Stormlands or the Seven Dwarves, so maybe he was in Prey 2 or Backspace, but they were short-lived. Obsidian's current secret project was not it, however, as it's being led by Brian Heins.
His only work at Obsidian in the last 5 years was his involvement in PoE, and that wasn't enough for him to even take credit for it.

 

[Orderian]

Look at you people. Poisoning the minds of innocent newfags

How did you know I was a fag? Can you smell it? Is it time for you to feast?

 

[Crooked Bee]

Well, we know he wasn't lead in Stormlands or the Seven Dwarves, so maybe he was in Prey 2 or Backspace, but they were short-lived. Obsidian's current secret project was not it, however, as it's being led by Brian Heins.
His only work at Obsidian in the last 5 years was his involvement in PoE, and that wasn't enough for him to even take credit for it.

Tbh I think you assume too much without knowing any behind the scenes info.

 

[Angthoron]

How did you know I was a fag? Can you smell it? Is it time for your to feast?

Oh dear, you joined without lurking for years, didn't you.

 

[Fairfax]

Tbh I think you assume too much without knowing any behind the scenes info.

In regards to Stormlands and Seven Dwarves, these are well known facts.

 

[Infinitron]

Anyway.

Nobody mentioned this when I posted it, but Avellone's recent collaboration in an extremely silly piece of Machinima makes it seem unlikely that he has a quarrel with Josh Sawyer and Tim Cain: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...er-no-sjw-allowed.57009/page-997#post-4062762

My current most plausible-seeming theory for his departure is this:

Avellone writes something for some new project. The other writers and creative types at Obsidian dislike it/reject it for some reason, and veto it by majority vote. Avellone gets upset, goes to Feargus. Feargus sides with the other writers. Avellone quits.

 

[Fairfax]

Yeah, it must've been something Fergus and the rest of the partners.
Honestly, he doesn't strike as the type that would leave solely because of one cancelled project. He's worked on several rejected/cancelled projects over the years: Van Buren, Baldur's Gate III, Aliens RPG, KotOR III, and so on. What's curious is that one Obsidian dev said here (found it the other day when reading the thread about his departure) that there's no embargo on Obsidian folks to talk about it, but he wanted MCA to explain it himself instead of saying something first.

 

[Orderian]

Oh dear, you joined without lurking for years, didn't you.

I joined as soon as I saw the site. I am happy that I did.

 

[ArchAngel]

I joined as soon as I saw the site. I am happy that I did.

I hope you are ready for all the shit slinging coming your way for at least 1 year.

 

[Angthoron]

Yeah, it must've been something Fergus and the rest of the partners.
Honestly, he doesn't strike as the type that would leave solely because of one cancelled project. He's worked on several rejected/cancelled projects over the years: Van Buren, Baldur's Gate III, Aliens RPG, KotOR III, and so on. What's curious is that one Obsidian dev said here (found it the other day when reading the thread about his departure) that there's no embargo on Obsidian folks to talk about it, but he wanted MCA to explain it himself instead of saying something first.

My own view of the "why" would be either he simply got tired of Obsidian and wanted something new, or there are actual strategic decisions he disagrees with, such as the Fig thing and who knows what else, but that is the only viable path for Obsidian.

I joined as soon as I saw the site. I am happy that I did.

Well, just wait until this happens: