The writing in this game is average

[Irenaeus]

You are simply wrong, Mastermind. I just played this part five minutes ago. Nothing implies your character saw Thaos.

That should have been a perception check, not decided by plot. At best

Are you Sawyer to decide when to have a perception check? Not everything that happens around you requires/allows perception tests. Are you going to ask for perception/resolve checks in the prologue to interrupt the ritual Thaos is conducting too?

Sure. Being able to interrupt the ritual and get killed would be cool. In this case it's a crucial moment in the game though, if there was one moment the game genuinely needed a perception check, it was that one.

The PC (a wild orlan ranger called Inissan in my case) was too absorbed hearing the Duc's pronunciation of his decision on the matters of Animancy to notice some guy in crowd.

What crowd?

The crowd attending the hearings. Particularly members of The Dozens, who are the textbook definition of unwashed plebs.

 

[Bleed the Man]

Too many coincidences of convenience, weak soul + politically influential individual.

It's not really influential (he's at the hearing because his activities might be banned from the country) and having a weak soul isn't in any way related to your success and possition in the world. And the most likely event is that Thaos is the one responsible that this guy is at the hearing and not another dude. He wouldn't risk having an animancer that he could not control at the hearing when his plan is to that said animancer kills the duc.

You know his plans then go to the Duc, possibly (can't remember if you have the choice not to) exposing his existence and plans to the public. How does that NOT affect his plan? It's a huge interference. And it would make him a bigger retard because he'd needlessly expose himself. If you force his hand so he has no time to think and loses his cool his reckless exposure becomes more understandable.

It's irrelevant to his plans because, if you hadn't stopped him at the end of the game, your little exposure would had mean absolutely nothing.

I can agree that the way the cutscene where Thaos kills the duc is not handled well, as it makes Thaos too exposed (i would have to watch it again, though), but him going personally to the hearing and doing the soul change thing is perfectly logical.

 

[Mastermind]

The crowd attending the hearings. Particularly members of The Dozens, who are the textbook definition of unwashed plebs.

It was a small group and you had an excellent view of the whole thing. Dozens' personal hygiene is not relevant.

 

[Irenaeus]

The crowd attending the hearings. Particularly members of The Dozens, who are the textbook definition of unwashed plebs.

It was a small group and you had an excellent view of the whole thing. Dozens' personal hygiene is not relevant.

It was a large group and you were focused on the pronunciation of the Duc over all matters Animancy.

 

[Mastermind]

It's not really influential (he's at the hearing because his activities might be banned from the country)

He's influential (and competent) if the Animancers had him plead their case. You had to go through quite a bit of trouble to get into the hearings yourself.

and having a weak soul isn't in any way related to your success and possition in the world.

It doesn't seem to be related to anything except whether Thanos can possess people or not as the plot allows.

And the most likely event is that Thaos is the one responsible that this guy is at the hearing and not another dude. He wouldn't risk having an animancer that he could not control at the hearing when his plan is to that said animancer kills the duc.

That wasn't the plan and if he wanted someone to kill the Duc he'd just have an assassin there instead of unnecessarily exposing himself. He'd have also done it earlier rather than wait and risk having someone disrupt his plans. The reason why he shows up late is because he wasn't planning on it until you fuck up his plans.

It's irrelevant to his plans because, if you hadn't stopped him at the end of the game, your little exposure would had mean absolutely nothing.

Everybody hunting for him vs you and a few other guys is nothing? The reason why you have to hunt him at the end of the game is because he disrupted his exposure with the assassination and there's no one else to do it. Without it the Duc could send an army (no short of pissed off people) after him and provide you with all the resources necessary to stomp the fucker into the ground.

I can agree that the way the cutscene where Thaos kills the duc is not handled well, as it makes Thaos to exposed (i would have to watch it again, though), but him going personally to the hearing and doing the soul change thing is perfectly logical.

No it's not, it makes no sense for a puppet master to expose himself like that except if it was an impromptu plan after being exposed.

 

[Mastermind]

The crowd attending the hearings. Particularly members of The Dozens, who are the textbook definition of unwashed plebs.

It was a small group and you had an excellent view of the whole thing. Dozens' personal hygiene is not relevant.

It was a large group and you were focused on the pronunciation of the Duc over all matters Animancy.

Maybe you were but I wasn't.

 

[Irenaeus]

The crowd attending the hearings. Particularly members of The Dozens, who are the textbook definition of unwashed plebs.

It was a small group and you had an excellent view of the whole thing. Dozens' personal hygiene is not relevant.

It was a large group and you were focused on the pronunciation of the Duc over all matters Animancy.

Maybe you were but I wasn't.

I was. The Duc was about to pronounce his decision concerning the Animancy debate, probably following my advice to increase government regulation and supervision over Animancy research, when he was suddenly assassinated by the animancer speaker with a powerful spell attack.

 

[Darth Roxor]

most likely

aka assumptions, handwaves and guesswork concerning plot holes that are never plugged by the game itself

 

[Bleed the Man]

And the most likely event is that Thaos is the one responsible that this guy is at the hearing and not another dude. He wouldn't risk having an animancer that he could not control at the hearing when his plan is to that said animancer kills the duc.

That wasn't the plan and if he wanted someone to kill the Duc he'd just have an assassin there instead of unnecessarily exposing himself. He'd have also done it earlier rather than wait and risk having someone disrupt his plans. The reason why he shows up late is because he wasn't planning on it until you fuck up his plans.

It's irrelevant to his plans because, if you hadn't stopped him at the end of the game, your little exposure would had mean absolutely nothing.

Everybody hunting for him vs you and a few other guys is nothing? The reason why you have to hunt him at the end of the game is because he disrupted his exposure with the assassination and there's no one else to do it. Without it the Duc could send an army (no short of pissed off people) after him and provide you with all the resources necessary to stomp the fucker into the ground.

I can agree that the way the cutscene where Thaos kills the duc is not handled well, as it makes Thaos to exposed (i would have to watch it again, though), but him going personally to the hearing and doing the soul change thing is perfectly logical.

No it's not, it makes no sense for a puppet master to expose himself like that except if it was an impromptu plan after being exposed.

It seems we have a heavy disagreement in the understanding of one particular event of the plot.

You claim Thaos shows up in order to save his ass and that you don't expose the leaden key so animancy gets blamed. I claim that killing the duc was his plan all along and your presence there was inconsequential.

I have certain reasons to believe is this way (in all honestly, it never even crossed my mind that Thaos actions weren't premeditated, as it seemed rather obvious to me). All he does in the city is trying to discredit animancy at the eyes of the people. This cause that the dozens become very vocal about the issue, but the decision to ban animancy is entirely in the duc's hand, who has made a hearing for all the groups in power to make a stand and give their arguments. Thaos ultimate plan requires that animancy gets discredited, as it is the way that would allow people to uncover the secret behind the gods. I really don't see Thaos, after turning on the Heritage Hill machine and make one animancer look bad with his experiments, to leave the veredict to a very reasonable man and call it a day. You go out of your way to ensure that what happens in that hearing is the worst possible event for animancy.

That's why it's so important that it is an animancer that kills the duc (you can't expect to send an assassin and cause the same effect, even if you try to shoehorn false evidency that it was an animancer)

 

[Irenaeus]

most likely

aka assumptions, handwaves and guesswork concerning plot holes that are never plugged by the game itself

Who are you quoting?

 

[Bleed the Man]

most likely

aka assumptions, handwaves and guesswork concerning plot holes that are never plugged by the game itself

Dude, what plot holes?

In this case we were discussing plot conveniences (Thaos being able to enter the body of the animancer), not plot holes.

Who are you quoting?

Me

 

[Darth Roxor]

Plot conveniences and plot holes are just about the same thing. 'He can take over this guy but not that guy because you see most likely i would believe it is only logical to assume that the common guess would be it's SOULS!'

 

[Irenaeus]

And the most likely event is that Thaos is the one responsible that this guy is at the hearing and not another dude. He wouldn't risk having an animancer that he could not control at the hearing when his plan is to that said animancer kills the duc.

That wasn't the plan and if he wanted someone to kill the Duc he'd just have an assassin there instead of unnecessarily exposing himself. He'd have also done it earlier rather than wait and risk having someone disrupt his plans. The reason why he shows up late is because he wasn't planning on it until you fuck up his plans.

It's irrelevant to his plans because, if you hadn't stopped him at the end of the game, your little exposure would had mean absolutely nothing.

Everybody hunting for him vs you and a few other guys is nothing? The reason why you have to hunt him at the end of the game is because he disrupted his exposure with the assassination and there's no one else to do it. Without it the Duc could send an army (no short of pissed off people) after him and provide you with all the resources necessary to stomp the fucker into the ground.

I can agree that the way the cutscene where Thaos kills the duc is not handled well, as it makes Thaos to exposed (i would have to watch it again, though), but him going personally to the hearing and doing the soul change thing is perfectly logical.

No it's not, it makes no sense for a puppet master to expose himself like that except if it was an impromptu plan after being exposed.

It seems we have a heavy disagreement in the understanding of one particular event of the plot.

You claim Thaos shows up in order to save his ass and that you don't expose the leaden key so animancy gets blamed. I claim that killing the duc was his plan all along and your presence there was inconsequential.

I have certain reasons to believe is this way (in all honestly, it never even crossed my mind that Thaos actions weren't premeditated, as it seemed rather obvious to me). All he does in the city is trying to discredit animancy at the eyes of the people. This cause that the dozens become very vocal about the issue, but the decision to ban animancy is entirely in the duc's hand, who has made a hearing for all the groups in power to make a stand and give their arguments. Thaos ultimate plan requires that animancy gets discredited, as it is the way that would allow people to uncover the secret behind the gods. I really don't see Thaos, after turning on the Heritage Hill machine and make one animancer look bad with his experiments, to leave the veredict to a very reasonable man and call it a day. You go out of your way to ensure that what happens in that hearing is the worst possible event for animancy.

That's why it's so important that it is an animancer that kills the duc (you can't expect to send an assassin and cause the same effect, even if you try to shoehorn false evidency that it was an animancer)

That's a really good post and it seals the Act 2 ending "controversy" brought up by people with difficulty understanding simple teenage fantasy fiction plots.

 

[Irenaeus]

So, the only plot hole, if you can call it that, after playing 70 hours of this game:

Spoiler

Why didn't Thaos kill Lady Webb when she abandoned him? Maybe continuing the game will bring up answers.

 

[Bleed the Man]

Plot conveniences and plot holes are just about the same thing. 'He can take over this guy but not that guy because you see most likely i would believe it is only logical to assume that the common guess would be it's SOULS!'

Ok, let's go through the events

Thaos can "soul jump" people. It's explicitly stated that this jump can only happen with weaker souls, or hosts with no souls at all. Thaos is able to soul jump one key person to continue with his plans.

There's no plot hole in any way, his power has already been presented and explained it's conditions. Him using this power at the hearing is convenient, not illogical

 

[Irenaeus]

Also, you can see from the beginning that the Animancer speaker at the hearing is a faggot and a weakling, regardless of anything ass else. He was also super distracted hearing the Duc's pronouncement which would determine the fate of his field of work and even the fate of his life (probably shaking, sweating and shitting on his pants) when he was possessed by Thaos. This translates into an easy case of soul possession.

 

[Bleed the Man]

So, the only plot hole, if you can call it that, after playing 70 hours of this game:

Spoiler

Why didn't Thaos kill Lady Webb when she abandoned him? Maybe continuing the game will bring up answers.

Thaos didn't consider her a menace. If she would have started to work against him, then he would have killed her long ago. Unless I'm misremembering, she is the actual victim of you being involved and trying to expose the leaden key, and not the duc, as she is the only figure that knows about this and could potentially damage his intents.

 

[Irenaeus]

So, the only plot hole, if you can call it that, after playing 70 hours of this game:

Spoiler

Why didn't Thaos kill Lady Webb when she abandoned him? Maybe continuing the game will bring up answers.

Thaos didn't consider her a menace. If she would have started to work against him, then he would have killed her long ago. Unless I'm misremembering, she is the actual victim of you being involved and trying to expose the leaden key, and not the duc, as she is the only figure that knows about this and could potentially damage his intents.

She's the victim of what? The Duc was murdered, I think he qualifies as victim. Btw, she was working against the Leaden Key even before you arrive (trying to follow their steps qualifies as working against). When you tell her about the machine that generates Hollowborns from Clîaban Rilag, she openly works against the Leaden Key (although Thaos was probably unaware of this). I think your first statement, that Thaos didn't consider that this powerful woman (one that learned a lot about the Leaden Key in her time there and ran away from him) is a menace to his plans is hard to believe, unless he is a retard. Anyway, I'll continue playing and see if something comes up to explain this.

 

[Mastermind]

It seems we have a heavy disagreement in the understanding of one particular event of the plot.

You claim Thaos shows up in order to save his ass and that you don't expose the leaden key so animancy gets blamed. I claim that killing the duc was his plan all along and your presence there was inconsequential.

We have more than that. While all the evidence AFAIK is circumstantial, your interpretation has no explanation for several points (other than Thaos being retarded which is a bad explanation) whereas your one objection has a reasonable explanation that is backed up by what actually happens in the game.

I have certain reasons to believe is this way (in all honestly, it never even crossed my mind that Thaos actions weren't premeditated, as it seemed rather obvious to me). All he does in the city is trying to discredit animancy at the eyes of the people. This cause that the dozens become very vocal about the issue, but the decision to ban animancy is entirely in the duc's hand, who has made a hearing for all the groups in power to make a stand and give their arguments. Thaos ultimate plan requires that animancy gets discredited, as it is the way that would allow people to uncover the secret behind the gods. I really don't see Thaos, after turning on the Heritage Hill machine and make one animancer look bad with his experiments, to leave the veredict to a very reasonable man and call it a day. You go out of your way to ensure that what happens in that hearing is the worst possible event for animancy.

That's why it's so important that it is an animancer that kills the duc (you can't expect to send an assassin and cause the same effect, even if you try to shoehorn false evidency that it was an animancer)

There are multiple problems with this reasoning:

First, it's precisely because the Duc is a reasonable man that he'll rule against animancy. Without you the hearing goes very, very badly for them (in no part because of Thaos's work in discrediting it). If the Duc was unresaonable it might make sense to set up an animancer assassination.

Second, he waited a while instead of assassinating the Duc right away. There's no reason to conveniently wait to do it when you're there. The more he waits the more likely it is that something will go wrong with his plan.

Third, he is not personally at the asylum when you meet him there, implying he can keep control over bodies from a long distance. If he was planning to assassinate the Duc he should already be in the animancer's body. Instead he shows up personally and risks exposure because he was never planning on it and thus did not get the chance to hijack the body before the hearing.

The most obvious interpretation of events is that killing Lady Webb/The Duc was a spur of the moment decision when he finds out you know about him which is why the assassination is so risky and sloppy. He was forced into acting. Or he's retarded, but that's an inferior interpretation considering who the man is.

 

[Mastermind]

So, the only plot hole, if you can call it that, after playing 70 hours of this game:

Spoiler

Why didn't Thaos kill Lady Webb when she abandoned him? Maybe continuing the game will bring up answers.

Thaos didn't consider her a menace. If she would have started to work against him, then he would have killed her long ago. Unless I'm misremembering, she is the actual victim of you being involved and trying to expose the leaden key, and not the duc, as she is the only figure that knows about this and could potentially damage his intents.

She's the victim of what? The Duc was murdered, I think he qualifies as victim. Btw, she was working against the Leaden Key even before you arrive (trying to follow their steps qualifies as working against). When you tell her about the machine that generates Hollowborns from Clîaban Rilag, she openly works against the Leaden Key (although Thaos was probably unaware of this). I think your first statement, that Thaos didn't consider that this powerful woman (one that learned a lot about the Leaden Key in her time there and ran away from him) is a menace to his plans is hard to believe, unless he is a retard. Anyway, I'll continue playing and see if something comes up to explain this.

It's possible he loved her so he gave her a bit more leeway than he otherwise would.

 

[Irenaeus]

So, the only plot hole, if you can call it that, after playing 70 hours of this game:

Spoiler

Why didn't Thaos kill Lady Webb when she abandoned him? Maybe continuing the game will bring up answers.

Thaos didn't consider her a menace. If she would have started to work against him, then he would have killed her long ago. Unless I'm misremembering, she is the actual victim of you being involved and trying to expose the leaden key, and not the duc, as she is the only figure that knows about this and could potentially damage his intents.

She's the victim of what? The Duc was murdered, I think he qualifies as victim. Btw, she was working against the Leaden Key even before you arrive (trying to follow their steps qualifies as working against). When you tell her about the machine that generates Hollowborns from Clîaban Rilag, she openly works against the Leaden Key (although Thaos was probably unaware of this). I think your first statement, that Thaos didn't consider that this powerful woman (one that learned a lot about the Leaden Key in her time there and ran away from him) is a menace to his plans is hard to believe, unless he is a retard. Anyway, I'll continue playing and see if something comes up to explain this.

It's possible he loved her so he gave her a bit more leeway than he otherwise would.

Cucked.

 

[Bleed the Man]

There are multiple problems with this reasoning:

First, it's precisely because the Duc is a reasonable man that he'll rule against animancy. Without you the hearing goes very, very badly for them (in no part because of Thaos's work in discrediting it). If the Duc was unresaonable it might make sense to set up an animancer assassination.

Second, he waited a while instead of assassinating the Duc right away. There's no reason to conveniently wait to do it when you're there. The more he waits the more likely it is that something will go wrong with his plan.

Third, he is not personally at the asylum when you meet him there, implying he can keep control over bodies from a long distance. If he was planning to assassinate the Duc he should already be in the animancer's body. Instead he shows up personally and risks exposure because he was never planning on it and thus did not get the chance to hijack the body before the hearing.

The most obvious interpretation of events is that killing Lady Webb/The Duc was a spur of the moment decision when he finds out you know about him which is why the assassination is so risky and sloppy. He was forced into acting. Or he's retarded, but that's an inferior interpretation considering who the man is.

I'm sorry, but your claim just falls apart from the moment that for Thaos plan to work is imperative that animancy gets blamed. It's all that matters, all he's done is with that purpose in mind. You don't leave the decision that will make your plan succeed or fail in the hands of other than yourself.

I mean, blaiming animancy is the cause that hundreds of children are born without soul. You don't go to such extremes and leave this kind of decisions to fate.

 

[Irenaeus]

Just want to point out that the writing on the ending of Act 2 is great. Onwards to Twin Elms.

 

[Mastermind]

I'm sorry, but your claim just falls apart from the moment that for Thaos plan to work is imperative that animancy gets blamed. It's all that matters, all he's done is with that purpose in mind. You don't leave the decision that will make your plan succeed or fail in the hands of other than yourself.

I mean, blaiming animancy is the cause that hundreds of children are born without soul. You don't go to such extremes and leave this kind of decisions to fate.

Why not actually deal with my points instead of repeating your position after I refuted it as if it answers the arguments:

"Third, he is not personally at the asylum when you meet him there, implying he can keep control over bodies from a long distance. If he was planning to assassinate the Duc he should already be in the animancer's body. Instead he shows up personally and risks exposure because he was never planning on it and thus did not get the chance to hijack the body before the hearing."

This stands even if I grant that Thaos had to do it himself.

To make matters worse he's just chilling in the Asylum until you chase him out. No urgency whatsoever even though the Duc could make a pronouncement any moment. It's obvious that nigga had no plan to kill the Duc until you forced his hand.

 

[Irenaeus]

Guess that's your last stand on trying to blame the game's writing on anything. "What was Thaos doing inside that boy when you visit the Asylum?" My answer: Plotting something to discredit the Animancers even more.

Questions: How do you know he's not personally at the asylum?
How do you know he doesn't have informants inside the hearings to call him when the Duc is nearing a decision?

Your move.