Pillars of Eternity Thread [Pre-Expansion]

[Cadmus]

that wallpaper sure looks shit

 

[Florian Gheorghe]

I was on level 9 with my party when beta 2.0 came out last week. I managed to finish my 2nd play today on normal difficulty. The first one I played on easy because that's the difficulty I choose for every game. I have to say that the final fight gave me troubles and had to restart the fight several times. On my first play I didn't finish Planescape Torment but now I did and I have to say the inspiration is there ( the souls and the final girl that loved you ). I am pretty sure we will not see a better one in years to come ( maybe just Torment). Can't wait to see what's new in the expansion so I can start a new party and hope that Aloth (voice from Virgil-Arcanum?) continues with the Leaden Key and we are going to see more from the Adra Dragon.

 

[Cadmus]

 

[norolim]

OK. I haven't visited the Codex for a month or so, 'cause I was rather busy and what little time I had I devoted to finishing this game. And finally I did, with what is probably a record breaking
completion time of 168h 49m 38s (for 3/4 of the game I read absolutely everything: all the dialogues, books, weapon descriptions, etc.). Now, everything has already been said about Pillars, so I'll just offer a quick outline of my impressions:

Gameplay

• an interesting, yet way overthought character development system; on the one hand it proved to be really flexible and allowed you to experiment with various builds, yet on the other, because of the overeagerness in the balancing™ department, it wasn't very rewarding - where there is no punishment for failure, there can be no reward for success;
• combat mechanics were mediocre at best and deeply flawed at worst; could have been saved by good encounter design;
• which, unfortunately, was for the most part rubbish; as a result, while playing on Hard, the only difficult fights I recall were some Shades and Shadows at the beginning, that overwhelmed my 3-man party with numbers and could teleport to my mage and the Adra dragon (I steamrolled over the other dragon and the final adversary);
• I liked both the interface and controls , the AI, however, was occasionally utter crap.

Story

This is a funny one; I think it was the best element of the game and yet the most disappointing for me, because it could and should have been much more:

• I felt that they were too ambitious with it - trying to show us too much detail, tell too many little stories, hence the constant expositions; the absolutely worst thing about it, however, was having to read about (or sometimes listen to) the same things over and over again; they should've concentrated more on:
• the PC's personal story - it was presented in an interesting way: we first found out what the main character has to do, and then, as the story progressed, we discovered why: we learnt about his past actions, people he knew, his arch enemy and the relation between them and finally the PC's motives; and those motives became clear only at the very end, when you had all the information and could make up your mind; it is a peculiar feeling to hit the road in order to find out why you are hitting the road; whether intentional or not, it is an interesting narrative device... shame the execution wasn't very good. All those bits and pieces, the emotional ties, the political and cultural implications and most of all the personal story of the main character got drowned in the sea of exposition; a real shame;
• the overall story was also brought down by the omnipresent leftist ideology and propaganda, the best example of which was Sagani and her ridiculously nonsensical tribal society.

Presentation

• graphics were very good; I liked the style and for the most part the area design; there were, however, a few lacklustre maps;
• the music was overall adequate: there were a few dull pieces but also one or two that I'll add to my best game music of all time playlist; sound effects were OK.

To sum up, it might not seem like it, because I concentrated on the negative, but I think Pillars of Eternity is an above average to good game. I probably would have been disappointed with it, if it was a direct sequel to, let's say, Baldur's Gate 2 and was released in 2002. But we live in different times now and compared to the majority of products corporations are trying to sell us as RPGs these days, it's a great game. And it's true for all the recently kickstarted traditional RPGs*: without them, we'd be playing (nothing or) Dragon Age Inquisitions and bitching about the decline. So yes, I welcome this new wave with hope - I hope it's a humble but promising beginning of a new era, the Era of Incline.

*I understand from what little I played and hear from others that Original Sin is way above this level, but I'm still waiting for the EE, so...

 

[Joni Odin von Hassenstein]

• the overall story was also brought down by the omnipresent leftist ideology and propaganda, the best example of which was Sagani and her ridiculously nonsensical tribal society.

Although I liked the story all in all, I think you efinitely have a point there!
This was most apparent to me when looking at the Gods: except the

Spoiler

evil one (I haven't played the edning yet, but I'm close, and it seems Woedica is considered evil)

and Berath they are all progressive Gods in one way or another. You can't find a conservative God except the one I mentioned in the spoiler-tag; and Berath is 50/50.
No one focusses on preserving, all focus on renewal and change we can believe in.
Even the "Capitalist God" (Abydon) does not focus on preservation of anything.
Also Eothas, while not necessarily being explicitly progressive, is not a conserver.

 

[norolim]

Also Eothas, while not necessarily being explicitly progressive, is not a conserver.

He led a fucking people's revolution. You can't get much more leftist than that :D.

 

[Joni Odin von Hassenstein]

He led a fucking people's revolution. You can't get much more leftist than that :D.

Well, it was an explicitly religious Mohammedan-style revolution, so theres that... ^^

 

[Commissar Draco]

Aedyr Empire are like Evul British from ''Patriot'' Movie on steroids + slave holders and natives butchers while the first Duke is puritan Messiah figure like Washington, Lincoln and Oboomer combined so of course the Patron godess of Aedyr empire was portrayed as Evul too. Would be surprised if they didn't go full SJW in the game made by Sawyer after all. Eothas was OK though He gave me vibes of God Emperor of sorts. (Temple of Eothas and and Edain story arcs actually best ones not done MCA too from muh immersion point of view.)

 

[norolim]

Well, it was an explicitly religious Mohammedan-style revolution, so theres that... ^^

From the point of view of the followers, yes. But for Eothas, it's a putsch, an attempt to depose the establishment - and he uses the power of the people in his attempt to do that.

 

[Fry]

leftist ideology and propaganda... the best example of which was Sagani and her ridiculously nonsensical tribal society.

Wha? I haven't played through with Sagani, but now I'm fascinated to hear what you think is leftist about her imagined tribe.

 

[Morality Games]

He led a fucking people's revolution. You can't get much more leftist than that :D.

Apparently he was also anti-clerical.

 

[norolim]

Wha? I haven't played through with Sagani, but now I'm fascinated to hear what you think is leftist about her imagined tribe.

It's a tribal society. They live close to nature and by nature's code... so naturally they have the weaker gender do the hunting with spears and bows and the stronger one do the houseworks. Because that's how nature would solve it, right? It's a clumsy attempt to create a society where strong and independent women provide for the family and men stay at home and do the cooking. It's a feminists' "utopian paradise".

 

[Gord]

A fictional tribal society of a fictional race in a fictional world. Why do some people (both leftist and right-wing) always need to see an agenda in everything...

 

[ZagorTeNej]

It's a tribal society. They live close to nature and by nature's code... so naturally they have the weaker gender do the hunting with spears and bows and the stronger one do the houseworks. Because that's how nature would solve it, right? It's a clumsy attempt to create a society where strong and independent women provide for the family and men stay at home and do the cooking. It's a feminists' "utopian paradise".

It also has to be an all-sharing communism society (though I don't remember if that's stated anywhere), otherwise the family would starve to death when the wife is pregnant and there's no one to do the hunting (Sagani has 3-4 kids IIRC).

 

[Bester]

It's a clumsy attempt to create a society where strong and independent women provide for the family and men stay at home and do the cooking. It's a feminists' "utopian paradise".

You're a very confused individual. Feminists don't want to work while men stay at home, it's not their utopian paradise. They actually don't want to work at all. Their utopia is when they have more rights, not more responsibilities.

It also has to be an all-sharing communism society (though I don't remember if that's stated anywhere), otherwise

No, that wouldn't be stated, because Sawyer believes communism is impossible without industrialization (LOL).

You have to realize the main person behind PoE is an unstable ugly fat woman inside a hipster man's body. None of its "political" components are going to make any sense.

 

[norolim]

A fictional tribal society of a fictional race in a fictional world. Why do some people (both leftist and right-wing) always need to see an agenda in everything...

Fictional creations should by all means be logical and believable.

It also has to be an all-sharing communism society (though I don't remember if that's stated anywhere), otherwise the family would starve to death when the wife is pregnant and there's no one to do the hunting (Sagani has 3-4 kids IIRC).

Yeah, that's one of the things that wouldn't work in a society like that: how on earth did they not die out, when women are constantly in the woods, hunting.

You're a very confused individual. Feminists don't want to work while men stay at home, it's not their utopian paradise. They actually don't want to work at all. Their utopia is when they have more rights, not more responsibilities.

There's nothing confusing about it, It's called propaganda. Do you hear feminists saying, they want more rights? No, they say they want equal right. Do you see them claiming they want to do nothing? No, they say they don't want to be sentenced to a life in the kitchen.

But anyway, I'm not interested in a 50-page discussion about feminism. It was just a small part of my criticism of the game, so I don't feel like devoting more time to it. That's all on the subject from me.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

A fictional tribal society of a fictional race in a fictional world. Why do some people (both leftist and right-wing) always need to see an agenda in everything...

Fictional race that are basically short real life humans. If it was an alien race of course everything goes as you're creating something unique that has no basis in the real world and can go wild.

Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean being devoid of logic is acceptable.

 

[Bester]

how on earth did they not die out, when women are constantly in the woods, hunting.

Who said they were constantly in the woods? Segani? She's a lying dyke, don't trust her b.s. stories. Men get everything done in her tribe just like everywhere else in the world, trust me. What she thinks and what the reality is are two different things.

(this is how I recommend you roleplay it in your head to avoid breaking your suspension of disbelief)

 

[Gord]

Why is it devoid of logic? Obviously the "kith" of Eora don't have any meaningful differences in bodily or mental strength/faculty between men and women (remember, it's a fictional world), therefore the argument "but women are weaker than men and wouldn't be as efficient hunters" is not valid here. Just like feminazis, you guys need to learn to differentiate between reality and fiction.

Now, considering that the women still have that whole pregnancy thing to put up with is a more sensible argument against making them the main hunters of the tribe, but in a close knit tribal society made up of several big families it would still be viable. Again, I don't see such a big issue with portraying societies that are different from ours (other than some of you guys being triggered by perceived "feminist/leftist propaganda").

 

[norolim]

Why is it devoid of logic? Obviously the "kith" of Eora don't have any meaningful differences in bodily or mental strength/faculty between men and women (remember, it's a fictional world), therefore the argument "but women are weaker than men and wouldn't be as efficient hunters" is not valid here. Just like feminazis, you guys need to learn to differentiate between reality and fiction.

Again, fictional creations must be believable. You can create a world, where the sun is green. You just have to convince the audience that in this world it should indeed be green. It's not stated anywhere, that female dwarves are stronger or as strong as male, and I don't know of too many humanoid species where that is the case. It has no fundations in the created world, and it's not my role to rationalise and look for logical connections in Eora. It's the author's responsibility to provide them.

I don't see such a big issue with portraying societies that are different from ours.

Me neither, they just have to be logical and believable.

Ok, I'm done with the subject now. For real.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Why is it devoid of logic? Obviously the "kith" of Eora don't have any meaningful differences in bodily or mental strength/faculty between men and women (remember, it's a fictional world), therefore the argument "but women are weaker than men and wouldn't be as efficient hunters" is not valid here. Just like feminazis, you guys need to learn to differentiate between reality and fiction.

That's a good point. In general, in fantasy RPGs stats are usually the same at char gen regardless of the sex. Even in terms of reactivity, sex is often a cosmetical choice (though there are exceptions like Fallout and VTM Bloodlines).

Now, considering that the women still have that whole pregnancy thing to put up with is a more sensible argument against making them the main hunters of the trube, but in a close knit tribal society made up of several big families it would still be viable.

Which is the argument I put forth. It could be somewhat viable (in an all-sharing utopian commie society where everyone gets same rations no matter how much they contribute) but still feels pretty impractical, what if several of the tribe's best hunters are pregnant at roughly the same time? Not to mention that unless they're much greater in number, putting women in danger (which hunting as a profession has to be to some degree, especially in a fantasy world populated with wild animals and monster everywhere) in a tribal society when they're so vital to reproduction (society's survival basically) is again somewhat illogical.

That it's a clear political pandering is beside the point, the main flaw is that it feels like a poorly thought out part of the setting.

 

[Roguey]

ITT ignoramuses

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2005/jun/15/childrensservices.familyandrelationships

What's fascinating about the Aka is that male and female roles are virtually interchangeable. While the women hunt, the men mind the children; while the men cook, the women decide where to set up the next camp. And vice versa: and it's in this vice versa, says Hewlett, that the really important message lies. "There is a sexual division of labour in the Aka community - women, for example, are the primary caregivers," he says. "But, and this is crucial, there's a level of flexibility that's virtually unknown in our society. Aka fathers will slip into roles usually occupied by mothers without a second thought and without, more importantly, any loss of status - there's no stigma involved in the different jobs."

One especially riveting facet of Aka life is that women are not only just as likely as their men to hunt, but are even sometimes more proficient as hunters. Hitherto, it has usually been assumed that, because of women's role as gestators and carers of the young, hunting was historically a universally male preserve: but in one study Hewlett found a woman who hunted through the eighth month of her pregnancy and was back at work with her nets and her spears just a month after giving birth. Other mothers went hunting with their newborns strapped to their sides, despite the fact that their prey, the duiker (a type of antelope), can be a dangerous beast.

 

[Copper]

What irked me about all of the setting stuff regarding the fantasy races is how non-fantastic it all is.

For all its flaws, Mass Effect of all games did a better job of making aliens a bit more alien, even if with broad, popcorn flavoured strokes. And that's what's interesting about fantasy races as a narrative device - they're not human, PoE's orlans/elves live significantly shorter or longer lives, for one, so you can play with standard human motivations and push them into strange directions. But I never saw any of that, like say how Salarians are fast-talking, because they don't live long.

In my opinion, Shadowrun did a far better job of building a complex, multi-cult world with fantasy races that felt distinct and integrated into the setting and narrative, even if it did stick to very trad roles - dwarf techs, elven mages, etc.

 

[veevoir]

What irked me about all of the setting stuff regarding the fantasy races is how non-fantastic it all is.

In my opinion, Shadowrun did a far better job of building a complex, multi-cult world with fantasy races that felt distinct and integrated into the setting and narrative, even if it did stick to very trad roles - dwarf techs, elven mages, etc.

Shadowrun has 30+ years of PnP under the belt, the lore is just there, polished by time. PoE created everything out of nothing. But the point still stands - they failed at making other races distinctive, it is just a small flavor choice/stat choice.

If even Mass Effect did that better then.. well..

 

[ZagorTeNej]

ITT ignoramuses

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2005/jun/15/childrensservices.familyandrelationships

Missing the point. We're not talking about a society with flexible, interchangeable roles (where everyone adapts as the situation requires) or exceptions to the rule but the one with well established roles where men are builders and caretakers while women are hunters. You didn't even play the game and read Sagani's dialogue.

What irked me about all of the setting stuff regarding the fantasy races is how non-fantastic it all is.

For all its flaws, Mass Effect of all games did a better job of making aliens a bit more alien, even if with broad, popcorn flavoured strokes. And that's what's interesting about fantasy races as a narrative device - they're not human, PoE's orlans/elves live significantly shorter or longer lives, for one, so you can play with standard human motivations and push them into strange directions. But I never saw any of that, like say how Salarians are fast-talking, because they don't live long.

In my opinion, Shadowrun did a far better job of building a complex, multi-cult world with fantasy races that felt distinct and integrated into the setting and narrative, even if it did stick to very trad roles - dwarf techs, elven mages, etc.

Forever attractive blue colored bisexual women that bang everyone outside their own race and overgrown lizards with 4 testicles don't strike me as particulary imaginative but yeah it's still better, mostly thanks to the Space Opera setting which offers more room for creativity than "not D&D" with elves and dwarves.