Pillars of Eternity Thread [Pre-Expansion]

[Roguey]

I was going to say I'd probably post here again since I doubt I'll get the expansions, but I guess my thoughts on this tour de force are worth their own thread.

 

[Bester]

Another example to a much larger extreme is North Korea vs South Korea. It stifled growth and market.

Maybe there are other differences between N Korea and S Korea other than their economic models?
- North Korea's ground: mostly mountains and red clay. Unlike S Korea, nothing grows here without heavy fertilization. This point will become important later.
- Before 1975, N Korea was doing better than S Korea economically. Then the Japanese migrated their industry to S Korea because it was a very poor country. They bring in raw materials and get a product made with cheap labor. The technology to make products is simply offered in the process.
- N Korea is extremely energy dependent - has no gas, no oil, no coal. They were going to buy nuclear power plants from the Soviets, but after the dissolution of USSR, the Americans put pressure on Russia and the project got cancelled.
- N Korea decides to build their own power plants. USA offers to Kim Il-sung to cancel his nuclear program and in exchange the Americans will build nuclear power plants with their own money. And while they're building them, they're supposed to ship oil in order to compensate for the lack of nuclear energy.
- N Korea cancels its nuclear program. Americans haven't built anything, but they're shipping oil. Then G Bush becomes president and says N Korea lacks democracy, therefore the "humanitarian" shipments of oil end now.
- Sanctions start. Banks that let N Korean payments through get closed. The Japanese stop N Korean cargo in the sea and confiscate all shipments under pretense that they can be used to build nuclear weapon. All trade becomes impossible.
- Under sanctions for a quarter of a century. No possibility to sell products => no possibility to buy energy => the chemical industry cannot work => no fertilization => harvest yields fall down significantly => half a country is half-starving.
- Because of this, they have to use gas generators like the ones that were used in WW2 (they burn wood, peat, etc, just so the machine can drive). A lot of stuff they have to do manually, like collect crops in the fields. They turn off electricity at night. Sometimes they have no hot water.
- One country trades with the whole world, they had free access to Japanese technologies in the 80s, they have all the favorable conditions. Another country lives in an economic blockade. And then somewhere someone inevitably says "Another example to a much larger extreme is North Korea vs South Korea. It stifled growth and market."

Communism is a broken control mechanism that gains traction by touting fears that people will be devalued and unrewarded by society - only to be devalued and unrewarded by the government.
Communism has never been implemented where it didn't lead to the powerful stepping on the weak making their population ineffective and unable to compete with a free market.

Communism in itself isn't even opposed to free market. Read Marx's Capital, the whole book is about how the added value must be distributed in the free market.
There are communists that prefer state planned economy, but even that idea doesn't exclude the possibility of small businesses and healthy competition.
For instance, during the Stalin era, USSR had not only state, but also private companies - they were called artels. An example of communism that didn't monopolize means of production. And as for competition, when the country needed a new plane, they held competition between different aircraft construction bureaus and chose the best offered model, much like it is done today in capitalist countries.

 

[Fairfax]

One thing Bethestards got right:

 

[Immortal]

- North Korea's ground: mostly mountains and red clay. Unlike S Korea, nothing grows here without heavy fertilization. This point will become important later.

No it won't.

- Before 1975, N Korea was doing better than S Korea economically. Then the Japanese migrated their industry to S Korea because it was a very poor country. They bring in raw materials and get a product made with cheap labor. The technology to make products is simply offered in the process.

Cool Story Bro.

Due to a series of ill fortuned policy decisions concerning military expenditures and mining industries and the radical changes in international oil prices by the late 1970s, the North Korean economy began to slow down. These decisions eventually affected the whole economy, forcing the nation to acquire external debts. At the same time North Korea's policy of self-reliance and the antagonism of America and its allies made it difficult for them to expand foreign trade or secure credit.

Compounding this was a decision to borrow foreign capital and invest heavily in military industries. North Korea's desire to lessen its dependence on aid from China and the Soviet Union prompted the expansion of its military power, which had begun in the second half of the 1960s. The government believed such expenditures could be covered by foreign borrowing and increased sales of its mineral wealth in the international market. North Korea invested heavily in its mining industries and purchased a large quantity of mineral extraction infrastructure from abroad. However, soon after making such investments, international prices for many of North Korea's native minerals fell, leaving the country with large debts and an inability to pay them off and still provide a high level of social welfare to its people.

• Depreciating equity of natural resources
• Over emphasis on military expenditures.
• Constantly antagonizing or at odds with the largest free market post WWII

Sounds like Communism to me!
Where has this happened before.. Boy I just can't think of a single communist regime toppled by a similar issue. Not One.

- N Korea is extremely energy dependent - has no gas, no oil, no coal. They were going to buy nuclear power plants from the Soviets, but after the dissolution of USSR, the Americans put pressure on Russia and the project got cancelled.

Wrong

- N Korea decides to build their own power plants. USA offers to Kim Il-sung to cancel his nuclear program and in exchange the Americans will build nuclear power plants with their own money. And while they're building them, they're supposed to ship oil in order to compensate for the lack of nuclear energy.
- N Korea cancels its nuclear program. Americans haven't built anything, but they're shipping oil. Then G Bush becomes president and says N Korea lacks democracy, therefore the "humanitarian" shipments of oil end now.
- Sanctions start. Banks that let N Korean payments through get closed. The Japanese stop N Korean cargo in the sea and confiscate all shipments under pretense that they can be used to build nuclear weapon. All trade becomes impossible.
- Under sanctions for a quarter of a century. No possibility to sell products => no possibility to buy energy => the chemical industry cannot work => no fertilization => harvest yields fall down significantly => half a country is half-starving.
- Because of this, they have to use gas generators like the ones that were used in WW2 (they burn wood, peat, etc, just so the machine can drive). A lot of stuff they have to do manually, like collect crops in the fields. They turn off electricity at night. Sometimes they have no hot water.
- One country trades with the whole world, they had free access to Japanese technologies in the 80s, they have all the favorable conditions. Another country lives in an economic blockade. And then somewhere someone inevitably says "Another example to a much larger extreme is North Korea vs South Korea. It stifled growth and market."

Because they live under a Communist regime.. and their leader is pushing for military dominance. Their belief since Kim Il Sung took power was that if they could become a nuclear power they would be treated as an equal by other countries.

They literally sell Chinese Aid off so they can pump more money into their adorable nuclear program.

This is a country who's every civilian is considered serving military personal.
This is a country who literally lives in the year 1960 technology wise and clothing style.
They are an isolated country that is ruled absolute by their government.
Guilty of war crimes and mistreatment and have hated Democracy since the Commie hand outs they got in the 1940's


I admit I am no History buff, but my girlfriend is Korean and has been dumping this shit on me for years.
Tell Putin I say hello.

 

[Bester]

Constantly antagonizing

Over emphasis on military expenditures.

Let's see where you're drawing these conclusions from.
- In 1945, USSR and USA liberated Korea from the Japanese occupation.
- The Korean forces that fought against the Japanese occupants are concentrated in the north of the country.
- The Korean forces that fought alongside the Japanese against their own countrymen (traitors basically) are concentrated in the south of the country.
- The americans send in Syngman Rhee, a korean who grew up in america.
- Syngman starts a war he cannot win, but the US helps him.
- For 4 years the war goes on. During that war, more bombs were dropped on the North than on Germany during WW2.
- Finally the border is established at the 38th parallel.
- Despite that, South Korea considers all islands north of 38th parallel theirs.
- South Korea doesn't recognize North Korea. Seoul still appoints ministers and governments to the "territories temporarily occupied by communist scum".
- North Korea isn't part of a single military alliance and has a military budget of a mere $1 bln / year. Despite that, North Korea is apparently a great danger to the whole world.
- South Korean military budget is $25 bln / year, plus has a military alliance with the US (600 bln) and Japan (60 bln).
- Various countries that don't even recognize North Korea constantly organize military exercise with full blown landing operations at the borders of North Korea.
- But apparently North Korea has an "over emphasis on military expenditures", uh huh. And "constantly antagonizes others" by having other countries threaten its borders. Seems legit.

Spoiler

How is it that the Korean War escaped the protests which surrounded the war in
Vietnam? Everything we've come to love and cherish about Vietnam had its forerunner
in Korea: the support of a corrupt tyranny, the atrocities, the napalm, the mass slaughter
of civilians, the cities and villages laid to waste, the calculated management of the news,
the sabotaging of peace talks. But the American people were convinced that the war in
Korea was an unambiguous case of one country invading another without provocation.
A case of the bad guys attacking the good guys who were being saved by the even better
guys; none of the historical, political and moral uncertainty that was the dilemma of
Vietnam.
…
On 26 June, the United States presented a resolution before the UN Security
Council condemning North Korea for its "unprovoked aggression". The resolution was
approved, although there were arguments that "this was a fight between Koreans" and
should be treated as a civil war, and a suggestion from the Egyptian delegate that the
word "unprovoked" should be dropped in view of the longstanding hostilities between
the two Koreas.Yugoslavia insisted as well that "there seemed to be lack of precise information
that could enable the Council to pin responsibility", and proposed that North Korea be
invited to present its side of the story. This was not done. (Three months later, the
Soviet foreign minister put forward a motion that the UN hear representatives from both
sides. This, too, was voted down, by a margin of 46 to 6, because of North Korea's
"aggression", and it was decided to extend an invitation to South Korea alone.)

— Killing Hope, William Blum

 

[Immortal]

Are you.. Saying North Korea is a victim?

 

[Bester]

Are you.. Saying North Korea is a victim?

Are these NK civilians victims?

Spoiler

Google the phrase "to destroy every means of communication and every installation, factory, city and village", see whose it is.

 

[Invictus]

So guys I played a cypher and it was ok, didnt particulary enjoy beign a supporting chat but it was good, what class would you suggest for a first time player besides cypher both from a gameplay and companion interaction viewpoint?

 

[Fairfax]

So guys I played a cypher and it was ok, didnt particulary enjoy beign a supporting chat but it was good, what class would you suggest for a first time player besides cypher both from a gameplay and companion interaction viewpoint?

Chanter is pretty strong, although it's a different playstyle. I had a good time with my Fighter, but people are saying it's getting nerfed in 2.0 (I've yet to check it myself).
Fighter or Paladin is what I'd recommend considering the companions because:

Durance and Grieving Mother are must haves for their stories and quests. Edér is a must gameplay-wise because he's the only viable tank, and you may not like him very much, but it's hard to dislike him.
I'd also recommend Hiravias, as he's more interesting than Aloth, Pallegina, Sagani and Kana, and the Druid has some pretty strong spells.

That's 4, you still need another 2. So, Aloth is not special in any sense, but he has the best AoE spells. Pallegina is a boring character and a terrible companion to have in your party because her build sucks. Sagani is probably the companion with the least dialog/story, and combat-wise she wasn't anything to write home about. Kana has the shortest quest, which wasn't really interesting, and his voice annoys me, but he's one of the best built companions. He's a strong second/third line gun chanter, which is one of the strongest classes.

In short, get Edér, Durance, Grieving Mother and Hiravias, then pick anyone except Pallegina. The only problem here is that it means Edér will be your only tank, which will give you more damage output at the cost of more micromanagement and more frequent attacks on the ranged characters.
However, if you make a tank yourself (Fighter or Paladin), you and Edér will aggro almost all enemies in the vast majority of encounters, so you'll be able to focus on using the DDs standing behind them and your party will be much more durable.

 

[Immortal]

Are these NK civilians victims?

Are you retarded?
I just asked if North Korea (as a regime and their decisions) are victims and you post images of civilians being killed by their own government?

You are painting North Korea as a victim when they are ruled by a lineage of psychotic dictators backed by a Communist Regime.
Your argument is that they as a country are a victim and it has nothing to do with their system of government, except their government is the reason this can happen.
Their isolation and endless runs of propaganda without an outside source of validation is the reason this can happen.

The fact you even tried to show those images just further reinforces my point.
You are glossing over things like Blood Debts and the selling of North Korea's own people into slavery as prostitutes or into labor camps (in Russia and abroad).

The Government does it to their own population. Of course -they- are victims you retard. The people are always victims in a communist regime.
That was my whole point.

Meanwhile the news plays Obama dressed in a devil suit destroying the world while their fearless leader puts up a magical wizard shield to protect them.
Only in Communist / Fascist Dictatorships do we see the depths of depravity like this.

 

[Semper]

For 4 years the war goes on. During that war, more bombs were dropped on the North than on Germany during WW2.

north korea was hit by around 600k bomb tonnages. that's about half of the amount of explosive and fire bombs that dropped on germany.

 

[Sensuki]

What

The

 

[agris]

You went LARP fag. Never go full LARP fag.

Spoiler

 

[Ninjerk]

someone... someone give directions to bsn before i faint

 

[Dorateen]

So, the battle against Raedric was not too shabby. Playing on the higher difficulty level that means more enemies were present. People who use the normal or lower settings I wouldn't expect to have the same experience.

Went into this with the Main Character level 5, and the rest of the party level 4. Being completely outnumbered and swarmed, the frontline paladin and fighter went down, leaving our Priest of Eothas to hold the line with both tanking and healing duties. Exhausted all spells and per encounter abilities. The battle was ultimately won by our Wizard, who is a classic intellect-based character, not some gimmick muscle wizard.

Nice bit of reactivity from the remaining occupants of the hold, with regard to the change in leadership. This was one of the better encounters I've had so far.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Wtf is this Korean War talk

 

[Irenaeus II]

It's a tribal society. They live close to nature and by nature's code... so naturally they have the weaker gender do the hunting with spears and bows and the stronger one do the houseworks. Because that's how nature would solve it, right? It's a clumsy attempt to create a society where strong and independent women provide for the family and men stay at home and do the cooking. It's a feminists' "utopian paradise".

I just interpreted all she said as deluded lies or dementia.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Who said they were constantly in the woods? Segani? She's a lying dyke, don't trust her b.s. stories. Men get everything done in her tribe just like everywhere else in the world, trust me. What she thinks and what the reality is are two different things.

(this is how I recommend you roleplay it in your head to avoid breaking your suspension of disbelief)

This guy gets it.

 

[Shevek]

The division of labor isn't always so clear cut. See the Agta hunting women of the Phillipines.

Agta women participate in a full range of daily subsistence and maintenance activities. They hunt, using dogs, knives, and bow and arrows; they kill a significant portion of the wild pig and deer. During 185 days of observation (55 trips) at Nanadukan, Cagayan, for example, teams of female hunters killed 22.2 percent of the prey with a 30.4 percent success rate. Mixed teams of men and women accounted for another 35.0 percent of all meat, with a 41 percent success rate. Women, both youth and adult, also fish. Women are especially noted for their skills in spearfishing, working in rough, deep waters as well as in shallow streams. Both men and women gather food, although the former favor honey collection, seldom joining women in securing mollusks from rivers or the ocean. Women tend to dominate the procurement of plant foods, except fruits. In recent years, however, Agta have neglected forest plant foods, preferring instead domesticated cereal grains and roots.

Source

 

[Copper]

I wonder what possible difference there could be between these two tropical examples and where Sagani's from?

 

[Doktor Best]

The difference is that Sagani even is from another species which means that the biological determinators forming muscular development could be only minor or even in favor of females, thus negating the natural advantages of men going out to hunt.

I dislike this forced equality crap as much as the next guy, but this aint one of them. You guys are losing your shit over one example of a matriarchial society of a ninexistant fantasy race(just like drow huh?), jumping conclusions and being triggered like traumatized children who got locked away in the basement.



Lose the butthurt guys, youre almost sounding like mens rights activists.

 

[Jaesun]

So what class should I play?

 

[Darth Roxor]

The Uninstaller.

 

[Jaesun]

Such edge, much wow.

 

[Rivmusique]

Anything but Chanter.

Anyone that did play Chanter, can you let me know if they ever did add PC exclusive chants? I recall during the KS they said it might be cool for story relevant chants to be added based on dialogue/quest decisions.