IWD2 source code lost, Beamdog is sad

[laclongquan]

laclongquan Wow, you really are one olympic level mentally contorted gymnist.

First of all you dont know that it was done on purpose. A modder in that thread stated: "It looks like the calculations (5-100 rand, * 5) are based off the other games 2e thieving scores range (0 - 255), rather than IWD2 3e skills range (0 - 33)". They suspect it was (as I did) because it's so retarded. But then everyone knows the game was rushed.

I also stated that I have a fuzzy memory that Sawyer nerfed stealth, and that if it was done on purpose, he's an asshole because his autism for rules was a prority over fun and the timescale/budget they had for the game.

Secondly, it isn't "hard" to hide in the presence of enemies, it's impossible. So try to be specific. A also don't care what dumbfuck playstyle you've created by quaffing an invisibility potion. Because invis potions and stealth are unrelated.

Thirdly you seem to be stating that this was all by fantastic tactical design. You're saying that this was all worth it so that we don't easily assassinate key enemies. That that mechanic is limited by invisibilty potions and tactical Sawyer design.

Well how tactical is a game that destroys scouting by stealth, and then as soon as a player fails their stealth check around a hostile enemy, re-enters stealth and hides, the enemies all beeline to the party wherever they are on the map?.

See? I can pick that as a playstyle/tactic as well. So do we call it a bug or a tactical masterclass of Sawyerism?.

:sigh:
I will remind you that IWD2 is the game that utilize TRACKING skill. Aka the NPCs can use tracking skill same as party members. And NPCs are much higher level than party member. Is it any farfetched to think they can track the target's bearings. And when the immediate target are impossible to track, they can track the secondary targets which is where target did come from.

I know you dont play upto Fell Wood map, which is where it's necessary to use, but other maps did use it before, but is it necessary to make me pointing that out?
EDIT: also dont talk about scouting as if you know how to do it. I do scouting all the times in IWD2. My main scout is DeepGnome Fighter4RogueX who master bow~ Her skills are enough to scout around all border regions but not deep into the main concentration, clearing up traps and trigger ambushes. For deep penetration, she would be using invisibility spells before hand, and quaff potions in emergency. She just need to find the body of main troops and lure them back to prepared battlefield by shooting at them. For that, IWD mechanism are more than enough. And for your information, her kill xp is 16-17%, meaning she kill her own fair share~

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

This game totally went downhill after Targos.

 

[Chippy]

laclongquan Really? You know that do you? Went through the character files and every. single. character. in the game has tracking up the whazoo? The mages, the undead, the thieves, the whole gambit?. Everyone and his retarded familiar is a master tracker?.

The issue I take with posters like yourself is that you just assume everything in games like this is as intended, expected behaviour, and perfect as is. You wont entertain the idea it's a fuckup. Sawyer himself said the game was rushed and unfinished in parts. But lets say it the tracking thing is "a thing" and was as intended: then it's even more retarded than stealth.

Ever heard anyone in the IE games ever say (apart from yourself apparently) "Wow; I love this feature where they all insitinctively know where we are on the map, even when they haven't seen us yet". And they somehow replicated that behaviour in SOD which wasn't based on IWD2's rules/engine - but did all the SOD enemies have tracking maxxed there as well? That wasn't just a bug? But a borrowed bit of tactical masterful Sawyerism they coded in?.

You seem to think it's all working as intended. While I'm saying that if both of these things are "expected behaviour" then it proves Sawyer is an asshole. The reason being that he was given a target to make this game as fun as and as quickly as possible to churn out money for the company. Instead he starts wasting time breaking the rules to make his version of "fun". Which we all know his brain is incapable of.

By bringing this up to the modders at least I got them to acknowledge that it's something they might be able to "fix" for people that want it. They all said it wasn't expected behaviour based on previous games. But gamers like yourself just just tow the Sawyerist line. Like a good little member of the party.

 

[Infinitron]

But iirc you can enable 3rd ed. sneak dice in the settings in IWD2, right? Or is this also limited to 1/round?

You're thinking of IWD1.

 

[laclongquan]

laclongquan
Ever heard anyone in the IE games ever say (apart from yourself apparently) "Wow; I love this feature where they all insitinctively know where we are on the map, even when they haven't seen us yet". And they somehow replicated that behaviour in SOD which wasn't based on IWD2's rules/engine - but did all the SOD enemies have tracking maxxed there as well? That wasn't just a bug?

I didnt play games made by Beamdog, specifically in this case SOD. So I bow to your superior knowledge of said developers. Oh wow, you play games made by Beamdog. Wow.

In another point, I didnt say we LIKE this feature. IT's a method to nerf gameplay. NOBODY ever like measures for nerfing. We just understand that it's necessary and we try to find way around it. Since this measure doesnt conflict with my strategy much, I dont dislike it, unlike some people relying exclusively on said tactic.

OTOH, everybody like abuses and exploits. Which is "solo assassination and run away for free". And they use a lot. So much so that nerfing measures are necessary.

 

[Kruyurk]

This game totally went downhill after Targos.

The solution to that is starting with a Peragus, so you know outright what you are getting into.

 

[Norfleet]

The base game has a belt of sex change as one of the first magic items you find.
It doesn't make any sense for a character existing in this world who claims to struggle with xir identity, when sex change magic is this readily available.
The existence of this character breaks the high magic setting's own logic that was established twenty fucking years ago.

Does the character shut up about it if you give them the belt so they can have what it is they wanted? Because I see nothing wrong with the idea of this character existing as a quest hook for just that purpose.

 

[JarlFrank]

The base game has a belt of sex change as one of the first magic items you find.
It doesn't make any sense for a character existing in this world who claims to struggle with xir identity, when sex change magic is this readily available.
The existence of this character breaks the high magic setting's own logic that was established twenty fucking years ago.

Does the character shut up about it if you give them the belt so they can have what it is they wanted? Because I see nothing wrong with the idea of this character existing as a quest hook for just that purpose.

No.

There is nothing to do with the character. No quest, nothing.
The only purpose of the character is to tell you it's a tranny. That's all.

 

[Chippy]

laclongquan
Ever heard anyone in the IE games ever say (apart from yourself apparently) "Wow; I love this feature where they all insitinctively know where we are on the map, even when they haven't seen us yet". And they somehow replicated that behaviour in SOD which wasn't based on IWD2's rules/engine - but did all the SOD enemies have tracking maxxed there as well? That wasn't just a bug?

I didnt play games made by Beamdog, specifically in this case SOD. So I bow to your superior knowledge of said developers. Oh wow, you play games made by Beamdog. Wow.

In another point, I didnt say we LIKE this feature. IT's a method to nerf gameplay. NOBODY ever like measures for nerfing. We just understand that it's necessary and we try to find way around it. Since this measure doesnt conflict with my strategy much, I dont dislike it, unlike some people relying exclusively on said tactic.

OTOH, everybody like abuses and exploits. Which is "solo assassination and run away for free". And they use a lot. So much so that nerfing measures are necessary.

This is catastrophically retarded. I'm just gonna make this last reply and then I'm done. Do you realise what you've just said? That players are to blame for Sawyer (apparently) taking a tried and true fun & working mechanic, and like some half-assed modder just breaking the rules and adding god-tier skill checks to enemies that shouldn't have them, justifies himself in altering the game for his version of 'balance'.

When all he has accomplished is create another 'exploit' that basically ruins the game. All you have to do is: stealth your character, find a buch of enemies, kill the mage with the thief, run and stealth. Then position your party at a choke point and when they all bundle at it; nuke them with spells.

Yeah, Sawyer really fixed what was broken in the previous 9 iterations of the game real good there. Like he said in the Youtube retrospective, he really gave veteran IE gamers a balanced challenge with that one.

You're just not mature enough to admit at least the "tracking" of enemies to your party was a bug, so you dress it up with silly remarks about me playing SOD. Total pandering Sawyerist.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

damn how hard is it for autists to just adapt the game rules as written

no I don't want to play Sawyers Ultimate D&D Experience

 

[Roguey]

damn how hard is it for autists to just adapt the game rules as written

no I don't want to play Sawyers Ultimate D&D Experience

The rules as written includes rule 0.

 

[logrus]

Out of all IE games IWD2 is in the most need of technical enhancements. Engine is really picky if it wants to work on particular machine, trying various mods, emulations, settings usually takes a lot of time and sometimes it works, sometimes nothing helps to achieve playable configuration. Also, I'm really butthurt IWD2 never got high-level expansion. If I remember correctly, I ended the game with my party around level 16 or something, definitely long before mages maxing out their spell level access.
I'm not really fan of Heart of Winter mode in IWD2 neither, as it really forces you to make absurd, cookie-cutter builds and some basic D&D mechanics like AC are almost irrelevant. It was quite absurd I had easier time in HoW Targos with level 1 sorcerer than with my heavily melee normal mode imported party (more like RP party than gamey one, but still it's bullshit). SCS II for BG2 was really cool difficulty game mode for BG2, HoW for IW2 is totally dumb in comparison.

 

[laclongquan]

To be fair, HoF mode illustrate how much 10+ levelup on spawns can affect your usual strategies and behaviors.
Turn Undead? 99% doesnt work unless you focus on that aspect alone and meet weakest group of ghosts/zombies/ghouls and they fail their rolls. I tried it before~
They almost always hit, meaning your meatshield require damage-absorb protection instead of ac buff. Technically the 72AC+ twinky build should still work but I dont do twinky build, I cant give my personal account on that.
Summoners are up in importance since the summons can be meatshields to absorb the almost-always hit.
etc and etc...
I dont know about your claim of using level1 characters in HoF, as I said, I dont do silly builds. My HoF runs are usually average party level of at least 14 with maybe Deep Gnome F4R8 (plus 3 level punishment for DG). As such, even a half goblin would be level 15, at least. A level1 sorcerer would do nothing to such~

 

[Sykar]

You can get your entire party to be near unhittable of you so wish it:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/552350-icewind-dale-ii/faqs/28063

 

[rusty_shackleford]

damn how hard is it for autists to just adapt the game rules as written

no I don't want to play Sawyers Ultimate D&D Experience

The rules as written includes rule 0.

1. "Rule 0" as it is now referred to is not and was never a part of AD&D, it was a part of D&D.
   1. AD&D instead shifts this authority for DMs to write the rules where the rules are otherwise silent.
2. GM Fiat requires consent of the players, something that is obviously impossible when an unknown quantity of players will play the game.

Know the game systems, and you will know how and when to take upon yourself the ultimate power. To become the final arbiter, rather than the interpreter of the rules, can be a difficult and demanding task, and it cannot be undertaken lightly, for your players expect to play this game, not one made up on the spot. By the same token, they are playing the game the way you, their DM, imagines and creates it.

[...]

, what is aimed at is a "universe" into which similar campaigns and parallel worlds can be placed. With certain uniformity of systems and "laws", players will be able to move from one campaign to another and know at least the elemental principles which govern the new milieu, for all milieux will have certain (but not necessarily the same) laws in common. Character races and classes will be nearly the same. Character ability scores will have the identical meaning - or nearly so. Magic spells will function in a certain manner regardless of which world the player is functioning in. Magic devices will certainly vary, but their principles will be similar. This uniformity will help not only players, it will enable DMs to carry on a meaningful dialogue and exchange of useful information. It might also eventually lead to grand tournaments wherein persons from any part of the U.S., or the world for that matter, can compete for accolades.

Complete DM fiat is incompatible with this.

 

[Parabalus]

But iirc you can enable 3rd ed. sneak dice in the settings in IWD2, right? Or is this also limited to 1/round?

Yes, also limited. Extreme trash.

 

[Roguey]

Rule 0" as it is now referred to is not and was never a part of AD&D, it was a part of D&D.

IWD2 uses third edition.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Rule 0" as it is now referred to is not and was never a part of AD&D, it was a part of D&D.

IWD2 uses third edition.

I know, another soyer mistake.

 

[Roguey]

I know, another soyer mistake.

He stands by that decision even though it put a great strain on the programmers.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I know, another soyer mistake.

He stands by that decision even though it put a great strain on the programmers.

Of course soyer thinks 3e """dungeons & dragons""" is a better system, he's the man responsible for pillars of shiternity.

 

[Roguey]

Of course soyer thinks 3e """dungeons & dragons""" is a better system, he's the man responsible for pillars of shiternity.

It did make attributes and armor class easier to comprehend.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It did make attributes [...] easier to comprehend

Nonsense.
It reduced ability scores to merely their bonuses, then you must ask: what is the point of ability scores anyways if all they are used for is their bonuses?
It only made them easier to understand in the sense of robbing them of all purpose.

There is nothing 3E does better than AD&D 2E: 3e skill system is a gimped, railroaded form of AD&D NWP with an illusion of choice compared to NWP's real choice.
So on and so forth. 3E was just a dumbing down and gamification of existing rules. Which was intended, as the intent was to make D&D more MTG-like to make it more friendly to newcomers and sell more books.

 

[Roguey]

It only made them easier to understand in the sense of robbing them of all purpose.

In the original game many thresholds served no purpose other than LARPing.

 

[thesheeep]

It did make attributes and armor class easier to comprehend.

It made attributes mostly irrelevant. They all just serve as a bunch of (de-)buffs to lots of things.
Any character with any random configuration of attributes will work just fine, as the total amount of bonuses evens out more or less - only the highest difficulty requires any effort put into stat distribution to squeeze out that little bit more optimization in relation to abilities.

Armor class isn't complicated in any version of D&D or PIllars, I fail to see what the point here is.

I mean, don't get me wrong.
Classic D&D attributes suck, too, but at least they do introduce some actual restrictions on what a character can be and do.
Meanwhile, in Pillars you can easily make a tank with constitution as a dump stat

 

[laclongquan]

You can get your entire party to be near unhittable of you so wish it:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/552350-icewind-dale-ii/faqs/28063

By taking out all the fun in the game.

I did use to follow guides in IWD2. Then I quittan in bored tears. later on I retook interest in the game and I learn to play that game my way, even if (or maybe especially if) it's unoptimized, un-powergamey.

Like, a lot of people said rogue is not a good class to use in IWD2 (mostly because they can no longer use assassination trick). But since I like Rogue, I develop the special trick DG f4rX focus on bow. Not only this build can recon, and use the usual rogue tricks, it can also shoot like machinegun and use up all the magic arrows gathering dust in my inventory~

IWD2 is a special game that require you play game your OWN way, because it's hard to retain interest otherwise.