IWD2 source code lost, Beamdog is sad

[DemonKing]

like any transgender person would say to some random they just met in the street.

I guess it is pretty accurate now that I think about it.

You obviously know a lot more trannies than me so I'll take your word on it.

 

[Chippy]

Sykar It's a long running (long suffering for all involved) point I keep raising that stealth was broken in IWD2 and I was the only gamer in existance to notice it. The threads are out there to prove it.

So I was just wondering if this EE was on the IWD2 engine, and they were aware that stealth is broken.

I raised this with a modding community (I think it was the Gibberling3) and they eventually acknowledged it, looked into it, and found the checks were too high. One of the modders made a quick fix. But I haven't got around to checking it. He said it needed further work.

But another modder said it was working fine on GemRB. So if they ever get around to finishing that, it seems to be the place to go. Maybe.

Not the only one. But it doesnt need fixing for reasons you dont care to know about.

Technically, yeah, the damn checks are too high. So a solo sneak player wont be able to solo the whole game.

OTOH, IWD2 is a very tough tactical game. Solo the whole game is a ridiculous notion. T.A.C.T.I.C.A.L. Can you spell it? It is by designed should be played with a many-members party, and difficulty get rebalanced around that concept.

Thus among the few loudmouth gamers left of this game, the support for fixing this should-be-barely-used feature is very low to begin with. If you cant convince us that it's a needed feature, we wouldnt be screaming about it need fixing in places frequented by IWD2 modders.

Does sneak fixing? Not that desperately. Does it work? Yes, very. A solo scout can sneak ahead to recon the terrain and enemies placement, then use bow/crossbow/throwing weapons to draw the far-off sentries back to our prepared battlefield, then we kill them before the rest straggling/swarming in. Assassination behind enemy lines is right the fuck out, with a few very rare exception.

This is usually where someone always kicks in with an excuse. How many iterations of the IE engine were there? I'll say Yes for stealth working as it was introduced in BG1 and No if it had a bug or issue. Let's see:

• BG1. Yes
• TOTSC. Yes
• IWD1. Yes.
• IWD1 Expansions. Yes for Heart of Winter, and unless I'm mistaken, TOTL introduced that lag, but it still "worked".
• PST. Yes. Little known fact: PST implemented line of sight, so even fighters could "stealth" by remaining behind even hostile enemies.
• BG2. Yes. Although it had a bug where it overflowed and reset (causing enemies to follow the character) but that was an easy fix.
• TOB. Yes
• IWD2. No.
• SOD. Yes/No. Stealth worked but they implemented that same bug from IWD2 where you entered stealth, ran away, and the enemies then made a beeline to your party. Usually the mages.

So after...10 iterations of the IE game, stealth worked in a clearly defined way in 9/10 of them. There were some hiccups along the way. But in IWD2 it was broken. Even if a player made a concession and played in the way you suggest, it was actually a liability in that as soon as your character entered stealth it flagged where your party was for all previously engaged hostile enemies.

You can prioritize it in your own way, for your own playstyle, with your own priorities. You may enjoy taking advantage of a broken system to play the game a certain way. But when you say that "Does it work? Yes, very" that's just you taking advantage of a bug to play the game in your own playstyle.

 

[Jigby]

BG2 has the blindness + stealth exploit. Hilarious (Also BG1? Can't remember; cannot be done in PST unfortunately)

The funny thing is that even though the move silently check is flipped, you can still do the stealth quest in the Orc fortress with just a rogue (sneaking past the 3 orc camps). Makes you wonder how much of the sneak debuff is a consequence of Sawyer's "balancing foremost" design, all the while still preserving the ability to complete the quest.

(https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Exploits#Blind_Thief_Trick)

 

[Chippy]

Jigby If Sawyer ever admits to this, it's further proof that his autism and OCD for balance means he isn't fit for purpose when it comes to designing games. I remember a post/tweet of his to another IWD2 developer that they had a shoestring budget and had to flesh out the story over a week or a weekend.

And yet (I've wondered this myself) he possible spends time tinkering with and trying to fix things that aren't broken.

 

[Sykar]

BG2 has the blindness + stealth exploit. Hilarious (Also BG1? Can't remember; cannot be done in PST unfortunately)

The funny thing is that even though the move silently check is flipped, you can still do the stealth quest in the Orc fortress with just a rogue (sneaking past the 3 orc camps). Makes you wonder how much of the sneak debuff is a consequence of Sawyer's "balancing foremost" design, all the while still preserving the ability to complete the quest.

(https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Exploits#Blind_Thief_Trick)

I can do it with the whole party. If you are careful it is no problem at all so long as you sneak without armor.

 

[laclongquan]

Chippy, even for same engine, the variables are different between each of them. In this specific case, variables related to sneak mechanism.

In IWD2 engine, the variables are set so that you cant just sneak in behind enemies lines, assassinate one important target, out-run all the chasing guards to a convenient dark spot, and turn to invisible. THat line of possibilities allow players of BG series to do a solo run, but was nerfed in this tactical-heavy difficult game.

Can you do that same thing? Only possible if your sneak character are fully developed in sneak skills and expend invisibility potions which are limited in number. spells take more time, sneak button take more time. Yet when a build is possible they usually where the level range of enemies make it a less cost-effective tactic. Thus achieve of the aim "disallow solo player waltz through the game".

Dawg, this is no bug. This is an intentional nerfing by game developers from day 1. If you cant take it any more, just cheat in a stack of invisibility potions and be done with it~

 

[Sykar]

Chippy, even for same engine, the variables are different between each of them. In this specific case, variables related to sneak mechanism.

In IWD2 engine, the variables are set so that you cant just sneak in behind enemies lines, assassinate one important target, out-run all the chasing guards to a convenient dark spot, and turn to invisible. THat line of possibilities allow players of BG series to do a solo run, but was nerfed in this tactical-heavy difficult game.

Can you do that same thing? Only possible if your sneak character are fully developed in sneak skills and expend invisibility potions which are limited in number. spells take more time, sneak button take more time. Yet when a build is possible they usually where the level range of enemies make it a less cost-effective tactic. Thus achieve of the aim "disallow solo player waltz through the game".

Dawg, this is no bug. This is an intentional nerfing by game developers from day 1. If you cant take it any more, just cheat in a stack of invisibility potions and be done with it~

Potion of invisibility or scroll can still make you do that. In fact Improved Invis is so broken enemies cannot attack you since the AI basically ignores you.

 

[Jigby]

In fact Improved Invis is so broken enemies cannot attack you since the AI basically ignores you.

This is a thing only in the unpatched version though. That + apocalyptic boneguards...

 

[laclongquan]

Dont avoid the issue.

invisibility potions is fastest in term of time usage. scrolls (and spells) are slower which is why they wont be approriate to use in those kind of runs. Potions is this quick: get out of their view, quaff, presto! but spells/scrolls is this: get out of view, making casting anim, enemies approach and interrupt~

And invi potions is fucking limited. You have about twenty potions for one or two CHAPTERS before you can buy more. Aka twenty times to do that tactics~ Nowhere near enough, and when it's not enough your tactic is screwed and you are going to run like a useless rat.

 

[Chippy]

Chippy, even for same engine, the variables are different between each of them. In this specific case, variables related to sneak mechanism.

In IWD2 engine, the variables are set so that you cant just sneak in behind enemies lines, assassinate one important target, out-run all the chasing guards to a convenient dark spot, and turn to invisible. THat line of possibilities allow players of BG series to do a solo run, but was nerfed in this tactical-heavy difficult game.

Can you do that same thing? Only possible if your sneak character are fully developed in sneak skills and expend invisibility potions which are limited in number. spells take more time, sneak button take more time. Yet when a build is possible they usually where the level range of enemies make it a less cost-effective tactic. Thus achieve of the aim "disallow solo player waltz through the game".

Dawg, this is no bug. This is an intentional nerfing by game developers from day 1. If you cant take it any more, just cheat in a stack of invisibility potions and be done with it~

Interesting post, but I and the modders tested stealth by maxxing it in various ways and the behaviour was still the same. As long as you're within the line of sight radius of any hostile enemy you will fail stealth at the end of the next turn.

So if Sawyer was responsible for implementing that on purpose, he needs to have his balls crushed in a vice.

Edit: I also don't see the "tactics" of the strategy you mentioned when hostile enemies will beeline to your party as soon as you quaf an invisibility potion. Please don't say you think that's one of Sawyer's tactics?. One he realised that bug was in place, they should have cut their losses and at least gave the players the freedom of stealth the previous games allowed.

For fun.


Hehe. Fun in a Sawyer game.

 

[Norfleet]

BG2 has the blindness + stealth exploit. Hilarious (Also BG1? Can't remember; cannot be done in PST unfortunately)

 

[laclongquan]

Have you tried Deep Gnome with its bonus to stealth check, approach from behind, and for fuck's sake, turn difficulty down to easiest level? Did you know that at HoF difficulty, from the lowest goblin would have 15 level higher than yours?

What part of "very high checks" did you have problem with? Did I just fucking say the devs intentionally nerf that "solo killer assassinate targets deep behind protection lines and run away with ease"?

 

[Chippy]

Have you tried Deep Gnome with its bonus to stealth check, approach from behind, and for fuck's sake, turn difficulty down to easiest level? Did you know that at HoF difficulty, from the lowest goblin would have 15 level higher than yours?

What part of "very high checks" did you have problem with? Did I just fucking say the devs intentionally nerf that "solo killer assassinate targets deep behind protection lines and run away with ease"?

Aha. I see we're at the 'wave your arms about autistically and insult the other poster' part of the Codexian exchange. Yes all of that was done. It was documented with racial checks and multiple modders married it up against their own findings.

Here's the thread: https://www.gibberlings3.net/forums/topic/32026-stealth-in-iwd2-broken/

What would you change about it?.

 

[laclongquan]

Did I not say this is a nerfing action designed by game dev? Even posters in that thread agree with that suspicion. Damn thing is hardcoded, which is why nobody ever be able to "fix" this shit.

IT's extremely hard to hide in the presence of enemies. What that mean is you cant do the assassinate, go into shadow and HIDE like in BG series or PST. That is a nerfing design, obviously. Since it's hardcoded.

What you can do is hide BEFORE you get into their presence. Assassinate, run to a corner, QUAFF an invisibility potion to get back into stealth state. you cant do the casting invi spell because anim is too slow you might get caught before, thus no free invi. For recon, I myself usually cast invi spell on my Deep Gnome scout and have her check out terrains to put down defense.

Obviously, this course of action get nerf by limiting the amount of invi potions you can acquire, by buying or stealing from others. This is, again, obvious a intentional design to prevent you suckers acquire free invi potions.

This is obvious to anyone with eyes to see that game devs dont want gamers overuse the "solo killer assassinate targets deep behind protection lines and run away with ease" tactic. Obvious, you solo thieves are too cheap through 4-5 other games they no longer tolerate.

What do you NOT understand about it?
---
What you actually mean is that you want sneak to be similar to OTHER games, like BG or PST, so you can freely abuse its mechanic, same as before. You dont want to accept the default design by game devs, so you want modders to change it. Without saying that you want to change the design, just "bugfix". So you insist on a calling a default design as "bug".

 

[Sacibengala]

I reinstalled my GOG version of this game, after like, 8 years, and now it's widescreen? GOG is installing mods out of the box now?

 

[Sykar]

Weird, my GoG version is not widescreen, though it has been on my HDD for a while now.

 

[Bara]

I reinstalled my GOG version of this game, after like, 8 years, and now it's widescreen? GOG is installing mods out of the box now?

Just installed it again no widescreen for me. Maybe some old files from when you had it last installed stuck around if you used it then?

 

[Chippy]

laclongquan Wow, you really are one olympic level mentally contorted gymnist.

First of all you dont know that it was done on purpose. A modder in that thread stated: "It looks like the calculations (5-100 rand, * 5) are based off the other games 2e thieving scores range (0 - 255), rather than IWD2 3e skills range (0 - 33)". They suspect it was (as I did) because it's so retarded. But then everyone knows the game was rushed.

I also stated that I have a fuzzy memory that Sawyer nerfed stealth, and that if it was done on purpose, he's an asshole because his autism for rules was a prority over fun and the timescale/budget they had for the game.

Secondly, it isn't "hard" to hide in the presence of enemies, it's impossible. So try to be specific. A also don't care what dumbfuck playstyle you've created by quaffing an invisibility potion. Because invis potions and stealth are unrelated.

Thirdly you seem to be stating that this was all by fantastic tactical design. You're saying that this was all worth it so that we don't easily assassinate key enemies. That that mechanic is limited by invisibilty potions and tactical Sawyer design.

Well how tactical is a game that destroys scouting by stealth, and then as soon as a player fails their stealth check around a hostile enemy, re-enters stealth and hides, the enemies all beeline to the party wherever they are on the map?.

See? I can pick that as a playstyle/tactic as well. So do we call it a bug or a tactical masterclass of Sawyerism?.

 

[Parabalus]

I also stated that I have a fuzzy memory that Sawyer nerfed stealth, and that if it was done on purpose, he's an asshole because his autism for rules was a prority over fun and the timescale/budget they had for the game.

He did nerf sneak attack heavily in IWD2 - both numbers wise, and a hard limit of 1/round. Made it extreme garbage.

 

[Chippy]

I also stated that I have a fuzzy memory that Sawyer nerfed stealth, and that if it was done on purpose, he's an asshole because his autism for rules was a prority over fun and the timescale/budget they had for the game.

He did nerf sneak attack heavily in IWD2 - both numbers wise, and a hard limit of 1/round. Made it extreme garbage.

A most notable, rightly, and honourable statement that is much appreciated. In this sea of autism and lawyerly rules...devoid of fun and times spent gaming in proven and time-honoured tradition.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

But iirc you can enable 3rd ed. sneak dice in the settings in IWD2, right? Or is this also limited to 1/round?

 

[Jigby]

There's only the 3E sneak dice, no backstab. IIRC you are limited to 1 sneak attack on a creature every 3 rounds. So to have a sneak attack every round you'd have to alternate between 3 creatures. Really dumb

On the upside, you don't need hide to do sneak attacks, flanking is good enough. Can't remember if concealment also works, prolly not.
But IWD2 is not ToEE, with the hordes of enemies and rtwp combat it's difficult to create a flanking position. In ToEE you just summon a lvl1 bird or something to create flanking, not so easy here.

 

[Sacibengala]

I reinstalled my GOG version of this game, after like, 8 years, and now it's widescreen? GOG is installing mods out of the box now?

Just installed it again no widescreen for me. Maybe some old files from when you had it last installed stuck around if you used it then?

This is possible. Very strange indeed.

 

[Sigourn]

There was a belt of gender reversal in Baldur's Gate IIRC.

As a fucking joke item.

The real joke is that Beamdog introduced a tranny character into Siege of Dragonspear who complains about having struggled with its gender for a long time.

Like bro... just... go to a wizard, pay 100 bucks, get a sex change. And it's not even like those real world surgeries, the spell will turn you into a real actual woman.
How can you struggle with your gender when this kind of magic exists.
It's completely fucking stupid and shows the writers didn't even spend 5 minutes with the original game before pushing their agenda into the expansion.

This is what I mean when I say real life politics take you out of a game.
I can expect that kind of stuff in certain settings, but certainly not in medieval fantasy.

 

[JarlFrank]

There was a belt of gender reversal in Baldur's Gate IIRC.

As a fucking joke item.

The real joke is that Beamdog introduced a tranny character into Siege of Dragonspear who complains about having struggled with its gender for a long time.

Like bro... just... go to a wizard, pay 100 bucks, get a sex change. And it's not even like those real world surgeries, the spell will turn you into a real actual woman.
How can you struggle with your gender when this kind of magic exists.
It's completely fucking stupid and shows the writers didn't even spend 5 minutes with the original game before pushing their agenda into the expansion.

This is what I mean when I say real life politics take you out of a game.
I can expect that kind of stuff in certain settings, but certainly not in medieval fantasy.

It's not even just a problem of a tranny in a medieval fantasy setting being jarring.
The base game has a belt of sex change as one of the first magic items you find.
It doesn't make any sense for a character existing in this world who claims to struggle with xir identity, when sex change magic is this readily available.
The existence of this character breaks the high magic setting's own logic that was established twenty fucking years ago.