Is KoToR worth playing?

[Rod Rodderson]

He was literally the least powerful Sith lord in awhile, his only real talents in force manipulation being flowing sith lightning.

Sidious is generally considered to be the most powerful Sith Lord, or at least one of the most powerful. He was weaker than Plagueis when he killed his master, sure, but he grew more powerful over time. (Also, I'm pretty sure he boozed Plagueis up and then electrocuted him to death.)

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

I like reading about military units in Wookiepedia. Say what you want about Star Wars, but their equipment looks damn fine.

 

[anus_pounder]

He was literally the least powerful Sith lord in awhile, his only real talents in force manipulation being flowing sith lightning.

Sidious is generally considered to be the most powerful Sith Lord, or at least one of the most powerful. He was weaker than Plagueis when he killed his master, sure, but he grew more powerful over time. (Also, I'm pretty sure he boozed Plagueis up and then electrocuted him to death.)

On that note, who is the most powerful Jedi then? Luke?

 

[Psquit]

The most interesting thing was the experiments with the force, trying to make soldiers capable of using the force (dat doom clone) or grevous trying to make jedi kids into killer robots or some shit like that (some comic).

Do you guys know some good star wars comics? or all of them are shit?.

 

[anus_pounder]

The most interesting thing was the experiments with the force, trying to make soldiers capable of using the force (dat doom clone) or grevous trying to make jedi kids into killer robots or some shit like that (some comic).

Do you guys know some good star wars comics? or all of them are shit?.

I've heard Star Wars : Legacy is decent. Keyword here is heard. I'm loath to try out the EU beyond games so I'm just as blind as you are.

 

[Psquit]

The most interesting thing was the experiments with the force, trying to make soldiers capable of using the force (dat doom clone) or grevous trying to make jedi kids into killer robots or some shit like that (some comic).

Do you guys know some good star wars comics? or all of them are shit?.

I've heard Star Wars : Legacy is decent. Keyword here is heard. I'm loath to try out the EU beyond games so I'm just as blind as you are.

I'm trying to find something to fill the gap betwen ep3 and ep4. No luck so far...

 

[deuxhero]

Do you guys know some good star wars comics? or all of them are shit?.

MCA wrote a few, never read them.

 

[Jick Magger]

Only genuinely good EU stuff I've read is The Thrawn trilogy, and even that's kinda been ruined over the years by them basically playing up Thrawn to be some infallibly brilliant, borderline omnipotent chess master tactician in other material. Christ, in the original trilogy he was a brilliant tactician, but he made plenty of mistakes and had his fair share of losses.

 

[Rod Rodderson]

On that note, who is the most powerful Jedi then? Luke?

Pretty much, yeah. Before him, Yoda's probably the greatest.

 

[anus_pounder]

On that note, who is the most powerful Jedi then? Luke?

Pretty much, yeah. Before him, Yoda's probably the greatest.

Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up. I'll admit I don't really like the idea of Palp and Luke being the strongest Sith and Jedi. I dunno, it just feels like it trivializes all the conflicts prior to these two to some sort of 'prelude'. Same goes for any conflicts after. Bleh, I dunno.

 

[Rod Rodderson]

Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up. I'll admit I don't really like the idea of Palp and Luke being the strongest Sith and Jedi. I dunno, it just feels like it trivializes all the conflicts prior to these two to some sort of 'prelude'. Same goes for any conflicts after. Bleh, I dunno.

It sort of makes sense. Palpatine is the culmination of the Order of the Sith Lords, designed to make the Sith the strongest they can be, and Luke is the son of the "Chosen One" (fuck, that sounds stupid). In a sense, everything between Bane and Sidious was a sort of prelude, and Anakin was just the product of shitty writing. Also, I imagine a lot of writers are rather large fans of the original trilogy, and it just feels wrong for those characters not to be the Greatest of All Time (admittedly, I agree with that to a point, being a tiny fanboy and all). Hence why Vader ended up being one of the most powerful Sith Lords, rather than some cripple in a robot suit. Hell, most prequel trilogy characters have some star-studded accolades. Even fucking Yaddle.

Though I'm not sure I agree. How powerful characters are in relation to one another isn't so important to good storytelling. For example, Vitiate (the Sith Emperor in TOR) is supposed to be super duper powerful, but he's an awful non-character. Besides, someone's going to be the most powerful. Might as well make it the least offensive choice.

And, real-world, it all sort of is secondary. The OT is the start of Star Wars. A lot of EU things revolve around it. The Old Republic timeline, for all its flaws, was an attempt to get away from it entirely. How successful it was is another matter.

 

[anus_pounder]

Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up. I'll admit I don't really like the idea of Palp and Luke being the strongest Sith and Jedi. I dunno, it just feels like it trivializes all the conflicts prior to these two to some sort of 'prelude'. Same goes for any conflicts after. Bleh, I dunno.

It sort of makes sense. Palpatine is the culmination of the Order of the Sith Lords, designed to make the Sith the strongest they can be, and Luke is the son of the "Chosen One" (fuck, that sounds stupid). In a sense, everything between Bane and Sidious was a sort of prelude, and Anakin was just the product of shitty writing. Also, I imagine a lot of writers are rather large fans of the original trilogy, and it just feels wrong for those characters not to be the Greatest of All Time (admittedly, I agree with that to a point, being a tiny fanboy and all). Hence why Vader ended up being one of the most powerful Sith Lords, rather than some cripple in a robot suit. Hell, most prequel trilogy characters have some star-studded accolades. Even fucking Yaddle.

Though I'm not sure I agree. How powerful characters are in relation to one another isn't so important to good storytelling. For example, Vitiate (the Sith Emperor in TOR) is supposed to be super duper powerful, but he's an awful non-character. Besides, someone's going to be the most powerful. Might as well make it the least offensive choice.

And, real-world, it all sort of is secondary. The OT is the start of Star Wars. A lot of EU things revolve around it. The Old Republic timeline, for all its flaws, was an attempt to get away from it entirely. How successful it was is another matter.

Good points. Meh, not gonna deny that its my personal bias speaking. And speaking of Prequel trilogy characters, is Darth Maul dead or not, whats this shit about cybernetics, a brother and night sisters? Do people fucking stay dead in SW?

EDIT: And yea, Old Palpy is strong yeah, but I just couldn't take his killing 3 Jedi Masters in Ep3 seriously. I don't deny that this is within his abilities, but the way they did it in the movie felt so...I dunno, hamfisted?

 

[Rod Rodderson]

Good points. Meh, not gonna deny that its my personal bias speaking. And speaking of Prequel trilogy characters, is Darth Maul dead or not, whats this shit about cybernetics, a brother and night sisters? Do people fucking stay dead in SW?

Thanks.

Darth Maul... he has a colorful history. He survived after TPM, and was found by Savage Opress (his black and green brother) in some junkyard with spider legs made of junk. He was taken to Mother Talzin, the leader of the Nightsisters, who used her magic (the Force by a different name, really) to give him fancier normal robo-legs. Then he and Opress palled around and did stuff, killed some dudes, fought Obi-Wan a couple times, lost some limbs, teamed up with some Mandalorian traditionalists, killed some more dudes, and took control of Mandalore. Then Sidious decided that Maul was a threat, schlepped his arse over to Mandalore, killed Opress and cowed Maul. Then TCW ended, so buggered if I know what happened next (might be covered in the future).

It sounds a bit silly, really, and I imagine a lot of people hated it (including our own Andhaira), but it was fun enough to watch (especially that last duel, with Sidious laughing like a maniac throughout), even if some of it was incredibly stupid.

Also, there's some other EU stuff with Maul coming back on I think one or two more occasions, though I think one was as a ghost and he fought Darth Vader or something. I don't remember the details offhand.

Compared to comic books, Star Wars is positively tame. Most characters do stay dead, Force Ghosts notwithstanding. I mean, Palpy came back in a series of clone bodies, but that's explained as a some Force technique he came up with (and a testament to his power), IIRC. It's mostly okay, though. You know, until the bring back Darth Vader for the sequels or something. You know they very well might.

EDIT: And yea, Old Palpy is strong yeah, but I just couldn't take his killing 3 Jedi Masters in Ep3 seriously. I don't deny that this is within his abilities, but the way they did it in the movie felt so...I dunno, hamfisted?

That scene was awful, definitely. In-universe, he's just freakishly powerful and his mastery of Force Speed allowed him to kill them before they could do anything. And, in-universe, those three Jedi were all pretty well decorated, so not complete mooks (hell, I can name them). In the movie, it just made everyone look incompetent, the Jedi for standing there like idiots, and Palpatine for telegraphing his attacks so obviously. The duel with Mace Windu was pretty anemic too, really. (Though I don't deny that Ian McDiarmid was fun to watch in it. He seemed to be having a ball.) The novel did a better job of it, but canon and all that.

 

[anus_pounder]

snip

Noted. That does sound a lot more believable than the bullshit I saw in the movie, even though I'm still not entirely satisfied that he was able to kill 3 accomplished jedi masters THAT quick.

On the note of comics, I'm gonna take a leap of faith and read Star Wars : Knights of the Old Republic. From the sound of it, the Protagonist seems to be a pretty crappy Jedi or at least no where near the power of usual SW protagonists. That in itself is enough for me. Will say more later.

EDIT: On the Windu vs Palp duel, I heard they had to not make it as fast paced or 'cool' as sayy...Anakin vs Obi Wan because the close ups required Ian, who isn't exactly a spring chicken. But he looked like he was having fun, so

 

[Jick Magger]

EDIT: And yea, Old Palpy is strong yeah, but I just couldn't take his killing 3 Jedi Masters in Ep3 seriously. I don't deny that this is within his abilities, but the way they did it in the movie felt so...I dunno, hamfisted?

That scene was awful, definitely. In-universe, he's just freakishly powerful and his mastery of Force Speed allowed him to kill them before they could do anything. And, in-universe, those three Jedi were all pretty well decorated, so not complete mooks (hell, I can name them). In the movie, it just made everyone look incompetent, the Jedi for standing there like idiots, and Palpatine for telegraphing his attacks so obviously. The duel with Mace Windu was pretty anemic too, really. (Though I don't deny that Ian McDiarmid was fun to watch in it. He seemed to be having a ball.) The novel did a better job of it, but canon and all that.

That's mainly because George Lucas insisted that Ian McDiarmid do his own stunts for that scene (as opposed to getting a stuntman to do it and digitally imposing McDiarmid's face over him, as any competent director would). Being a man in his sixties, they only had so much to work with.

That and I feel as though him using a lightsaber at all kinda cheapens his character as a whole, same thing with Yoda. Part of what made him so intimidating in RoTJ is how his power is more inferred by his mannerisms and appearance. He has open contempt for lightsabers, observing Luke's with quiet amusement and mockingly calling it a 'Jedi weapon'. It's obvious that he only lets Vader keep his because he's nothing more than his personal attack dog. Even the lightning is only implied to be one of the many things he's capable of, only choosing it because he wants to inflict as much pain and agony as he can upon Luke before killing him.

Even Timothy Zahn understood this. The only Dark Jedi they face throughout the entirety of The Thrawn trilogy (save Luke's crazy clone) almost never uses a lightsaber, preferring to wreck shit with the force and sith lightning.

 

[Rod Rodderson]

That and I feel as though him using a lightsaber at all kinda cheapens his character as a whole, same thing with Yoda.

Oh, I don't disagree. Him being above such things was good, but alas, the PT came to ruin that (ignoring EU at the time).

Taking the whole EU into consideration, you just tend to go along with it. I guess I'm of two minds on that. Movies alone: It's stupid, and devalues the characters and pretty much everything Yoda says in the OT. EU: Fuck it, why not, let's go all the way. These are not equally dignified viewpoints, but they serve very different purposes.

(As a side-note, I was disappointed when Kreia and Nihilus pulled out lightsabers in KotOR 2. I thought they were better off as just Force characters.)

 

[abnaxus]

Weren't the old Sith Lords like Freedonn Nadd way more powerful than anyone after the Rule of Two?

 

[anus_pounder]

Weren't the old Sith Lords like Freedonn Nadd way more powerful than anyone after the Rule of Two?

I recall Kriea saying something along the lines of that, at least in terms of lightsaber skills.

 

[Rod Rodderson]

Weren't the old Sith Lords like Freedonn Nadd way more powerful than anyone after the Rule of Two?

Kreia mentioned that the ancient Force-users were more powerful, I think when you passed Tulak Hord's tomb, yes. But Kreia's not an infallible source, even if she wasn't lying or in that instance (or just exaggerating for effect, for whatever reason). And, really, she'd have no way of knowing that for sure. Just inference and records, which aren't necessarily accurate, and, as legends tend to, might exaggerate facts.

But that's just fanwank, the main problem is that it contradicts pretty much everything else in the EU in that regard, and the ancient Sith just don't have the feats to back any tenable stance as to their superiority. And there's no real reason to believe they would be more powerful. It's not like the Force is watered down over generations. If anything, they'd be less skilled without the accumulated knowledge of their forebears. Or they'd seem more skilled when users of the Dark Side were more novel. But, again, fanwank.

 

[anus_pounder]

Weren't the old Sith Lords like Freedonn Nadd way more powerful than anyone after the Rule of Two?

Kreia mentioned that the ancient Force-users were more powerful, I think when you passed Tulak Hord's tomb, yes. But Kreia's not an infallible source, even if she wasn't lying or in that instance (or just exaggerating for effect, for whatever reason). And, really, she'd have no way of knowing that for sure. Just inference and records, which aren't necessarily accurate, and, as legends tend to, might exaggerate facts.

But that's just fanwank, the main problem is that it contradicts pretty much everything else in the EU in that regard, and the ancient Sith just don't have the feats to back any tenable stance as to their superiority. And there's no real reason to believe they would be more powerful. It's not like the Force is watered down over generations. If anything, they'd be less skilled without the accumulated knowledge of their forebears. Or they'd seem more skilled when users of the Dark Side were more novel. But, again, fanwank.

Thats a good point. Could be they were more powerful in relation to the Sith and Jedi of the time - KotOR2 timeframe. Considering the Exile herself was only 'moderately strong' in the force and able to beat the Sith Triumvirate - albeit through her unique connection to the force and, in Sion's case, 'force' of persuasion. Of course, I'm basing this on KotOR2. I have no idea how much of the game was retcond by future material.

 

[Rod Rodderson]

Thats a good point. Could be they were more powerful in relation to the Sith and Jedi of the time - KotOR2 timeframe.

Maybe. Though Revan was, at least in-universe, considered to be rather powerful by his peers. There is a fair amount of other material in that time, though. Not so much for the older Sith. I'd chalk it up to legendry (fuck you, spell check, that is a word) and circumstance, myself, but I can't say for sure.

Of course, I'm basing this on KotOR2. I have no idea how much of the game was retcond by future material.

For your own sake, never look up anything relating to TOR. KotOR 2, let's just say, did not escape unscathed.

 

[abnaxus]

Regarding "accumulated knowledge", there's the counterpoint that in the neverending conflicts between Jedi and Sith ever since the birth of the Republic, a humongous amount of knowledge was lost.

I recall in one of the Star Wars comics that Luke Skywalker woke up some ancient Jedi Master (who appears in the KOTOR comics) and gets owned by her in seconds (though I don't recall whether SKywalker was already in his full power).

Regarding the ancient Sith Lords, I've only seen Naga Sadow appear in a Tales of the Jedi comic, for the rest it's mostly their spirits corrupting other Jedi (like Exar Kun).

In fact, judging from Jedi Academy Marka Ragnos' spirit is still around at the time of Luke Skywalker.

 

[anus_pounder]

Didn't it take the combined powers of Luke, his apprentices and some other jedi spirit to beat Exar Kun's spirit?

 

[Rod Rodderson]

Regarding "accumulated knowledge", there's the counterpoint that in the neverending conflicts between Jedi and Sith ever since the birth of the Republic, a humongous amount of knowledge was lost.

Yeah, I'm vaguely aware of that. But I can't speak as to the nature of what was lost. It was just a possible explanation. But, yeah, I don't have a great deal to say about that. There's just little to go on. All I can say is that I don't much like the idea, and it doesn't make much sense to me.

I recall in one of the Star Wars comics that Luke Skywalker woke up some ancient Jedi Master (who appears in the KOTOR comics) and gets owned by her in seconds (though I don't recall whether SKywalker was already in his full power).

Celeste Morne? That was pre-Empire. Luke was barely a Jedi at that point. Besides, the KotOR era was a fair while after the time of the old Sith lords, and is fairly well-documented.

Didn't it take the combined powers of Luke, his apprentices and some other jedi spirit to beat Exar Kun's spirit?

Luke's spirit was separated from his body. So his spirit, plus the others, yeah. It really boils down to the writers, in the end.

 

[tuluse]

That and I feel as though him using a lightsaber at all kinda cheapens his character as a whole, same thing with Yoda.