I am enjoying again Oblivion

[Volourn]

"THat's the most "voulournish" argumentation ever made on this forum.
just replace "figures" by "period" it's like "You are a moron. Period"

R00fles!

 

[Excrément]

"THat's the most "voulournish" argumentation ever made on this forum.
just replace "figures" by "period" it's like "You are a moron. Period"

R00fles!

I forgot the "R00fles!" indeed...

 

[denizsi]

THat's the most "voulournish" argumentation ever made on this forum.
just replace "figures" by "period" it's like "You are a moron. Period"

So, instead of addressing the points I raised, you chose to reply to my wild guess about your misperception, likening it to Volourn? Is it because by any chance that you simply can't?

By the way, "Volournian" fits better and has been in use for some time in situations like this

 

[suibhne]

if you forget all the PR bullshit, the famous dev quote ("there are a lot of political intrigues, radiant AI is sometimes too clever..."), the ESF fan base, the dumbs journalists reviews that angers you.
and now, imagine daggerfall and morrowind never existed and Oblivion is the first game from bethesda since Arena. imagine also that bethesda isn't the vilain that buy the fallout licence but a "small budget company" who have in his team a lot of black isle developer.
would you still say this game suck? won't you be a little bit more enthusiastic? I won't be surprised if many of you think this game is TEH best game EVAR!!!

I just saw this gem of witty repartee - another in a line of braindead little trolls who claim that yes, Virginia, there really is a Codex hivemind; that the hivemind fetishizes edgy indieness over any of the design principles littered ostensibly lauded throughout these forums; and that there is, therefore, no substance to any of the multitudinous (and rigorously supported) critiques of Oblivion (or any other game) around here.

Excrement, you may not be able to comprehend the discussions of game design which pop up around here, or you may simply not notice them while looking for evidence toward your fashionably rebellious thesis of Codexian corruption. It doesn't really matter, because the end result - your unflagging ignorance - is identical in either case.

The problems with Oblivion have been argued irrationally around here, it's true, but they've also been argued rationally, with a higher degree of principled sophistication than any other RPG-related conversation I've found online. Codex posters have enumerated exhaustive litanies of the failures of Oblivion's quest development, character development, interface, narrative, economy, and mythology. We don't all agree - for example, I've often said that I genuinely admire Oblivion's world design (its outdoor environments) while others have criticized it for unending blandness - but the viewpoints presented around here have often been impressively supported. Truth is, when looking for an analog to ESF irrationality you need search no further than your own flailings-about contra Codex.

 

[golgotha]

Excrément's argument is pretty pointless. I defended a lot of Oblivion's dev decisions up until its release. I kept track of all the PR videos, previews and interviews. The reason I did this? I enjoyed Morrowind a lot due to its adventure aspect. Thats THE best aspect of the TES series, the fact you can go anywhere, anytime and explore. Oblivion single handidly removed any reason to explore the enviroment. Just power level and then, and only then, will you be able to find the nice items that used to be hidden in caverns in MW. I was quite disappointed in OB especially since the first quest line I played was the DB quests, and after that you release just how atrocious the rest of the game really is.

I would've preferred MW + updated graphics + the new combat system than the piece of shit I paid $50 for. My little brother, who put more hours into MW than me, quit a little after his fourth Oblivion gate. He even told me that he refused to accept that the game sucked as bad as it did and kept telling himself it'd only get better.. well, it didn't.

 

[Excrément]

. Codex posters have enumerated exhaustive litanies of the failures of Oblivion's quest development, character development, interface, narrative, economy, and mythology.

don't say the contrary. but did you notice these same failures (sometimes more sometimes less) existed also in Daggerfall?
with Oblivion this failures have become a drama because of all the irrationality of the codexers, the bethesda-hate. I don't mind with irrationality because it's fun and this forum is fun so it's why I am posting here. but now it is becoming redundant, boring especially with the fact that now in every single article, newsposts, even if it's not linked with Oblivion, there is some Oblivion-bashing. people can't review a game without comparing it with Oblivion, people can't make a joke without posting a Todd Howard photoshoped pictures, this obsession hide either an admiration or a frustration. (how the fuck it is possible and fun to do a 45 pages long thread quoting kids in another forum?)
I would like to undersand why here people officially hate Oblivion and feel so proud and brave to tell it whereas in the same time these people are asking for hint for the lockpicking minigame!!
it stinks the hypocrisy, "I hate the game I am playing every day..."

eventually only the general discussion forum is free of this international competition of Obilvion-bashing (who will win? Admirable Blowjob? Twinbitch?Romanian_Dick2005?Doctor D. Weller?) and the online gestapo it consequently created

P.S for the turkish dick : sorry, I didn't find any arguments...

 

[sabishii]

don't say the contrary. but did you notice these same failures (sometimes more sometimes less) existed also in Daggerfall?

If you read what people have written then YOU would notice that they consider that these failures DON'T exist as much in Daggerfall.

I would like to undersand why here people officially hate Oblivion and feel so proud and brave to tell it whereas in the same time these people are asking for hint for the lockpicking minigame!!
it stinks the hypocrisy, "I hate the game I am playing every day..."

Uh... No?

 

[Excrément]

don't say the contrary. but did you notice these same failures (sometimes more sometimes less) existed also in Daggerfall?

If you read what people have written then YOU would notice that they consider that these failures DON'T exist as much in Daggerfall.

I would like to undersand why here people officially hate Oblivion and feel so proud and brave to tell it whereas in the same time these people are asking for hint for the lockpicking minigame!!
it stinks the hypocrisy, "I hate the game I am playing every day..."

Uh... No?

character development : the level scaling system terribly suck in both case (don't forget in daggerfall, the sleep&wake up system with each time a new ennemy to beat with fantastic armour and weapons on him)
quest devlopement : only the time limit had change, the quest in daggerfall were more boring and repetitive, don't use the pretexts of the 3 or 4 quests with multiple endings to say the quests were better. daggerfall was about hack and slash, oblivion too but at least the hack and lash (which is about gameplay) is more fun in Oblivion. but for sure the main quest was excellent in daggerfall and is a shame in Oblivion.
narrative and mythology : daggerfall won by far.
interface : it's not a point for me, except the size problem the oblivion interface is more intuitive.
economy : both sucks.
exploration : oblivion won by far for the nature exploration (which is pointless in daggerfall) and it's a tight for the dungeons, at least in daggerfall you can get lost but the dungeons were too big also (IMO), oblivion dungeons are largely better than the mW ones but are still too small.

 

[sabishii]

exploration : oblivion won by far for the nature exploration (which is pointless in daggerfall) and it's a tight for the dungeons, at least in daggerfall you can get lost but the dungeons were too big also (IMO), oblivion dungeons are largely better than the mW ones but are still too small.

I'm not a dungeon fan, but even I can see how the item level-scaling totally defeats the purpose of hunting for treasure in dungeons.

 

[Micmu]

I'm not a dungeon fan, but even I can see how the item level-scaling totally defeats the purpose of hunting for treasure in dungeons.

Yes, now there is the retarded respawning...of loot!
So there is absolutely no purpose of visiting different dungeons when you can plunder the same one over and over again. Also, there are absolutely NO well guarded dungeons with powerful, unique legendary items or hand-placed ANYTHING except clutter.
This is where MW was way better than DF (exploration) yet with oblivious they dumbed that amongst other things while still being infinitely smaller than DF.
Killed exploration, combined with redicilous hand-holding and absent background story, lore, politics and dialogue was the absolute "killer" for me which made me uninstall it and sell it after only a week. I perceived it as a generic storyless action game with stats akin to countless diablo clones.

 

[denizsi]

don't say the contrary. but did you notice these same failures (sometimes more sometimes less) existed also in Daggerfall?

How did we suddenly end up with Daggerfall? I thought we were talking about how subjective people were about Oblivion. Running short on basis, are we?. Also, there is no goddamn "hivemind", who accepts Daggerfall as one of the absolute best or as canon. Some of us here dislike or hate the game as much as some of us like or adore it. Believe it or not, some of us even have problem with Fallout with at least some rational reasons. It's so ridiculous to bring up this "official hivemind" misconception and try use it as a basis for any kind of arguement.

Here is a suggestion for you:

Forget all "teh hivemind" bullshit, the infamous member quotes ("they lied!", "radiant AI is manytimes too retarded...", "I saw a mudcrab the other day"), the Codex anti-Oblivion base, the dumb ESF-refugees' hateful reviews that angers you.
And now, imagine that regular Codexers' favourite RPGs were really good RPGs, superior in many ways to Oblivion and that Oblivion isn't the first RPG they've played. Imagine also that the Codex isn't the nest of biased arrogant fucks that "piss at anything that hasn't been made before 1998" but a "small discussion community" who have among their members a lot of open-minded people with objective integrity.
would you still say the opinions expressed are biased? Won't you be a little bit more enthusiastic about reading them? I won't be surprised if you think the opinions expressed here are TEH best opinions EVAR!!!¹

Just imagine:

Imagine there's no hivemind
It's easy if you try²
...

¹: I tried to fix a few words and expressions from the original post so it may not make sense to Excrément this way; sorry for that!
²: thanks to all fuckers who tainted me with their lyrical posts.

 

[Micmu]

Oh, the "fine" art of.

 

[Excrément]

Hey John Lennon,

how can I forget the hivemind when my post is especially about the hivemind...

it's like "Hey I don't like George W. Bush" and denizi the therapist say "I have a solution for you, moron. Imagine there is no George W. Bush and all will be fine.Period. R00fles."

 

[Excrément]

Oh, the "fine" art of.

yeah I am now waiting for the :

then attribute that position to the opponent

but

the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.

 

[Zomg]

I pledge that any talk about I do about design is ultimately derived from rationalization about games I enjoyed inarticulately.

 

[denizsi]

how can I forget the hivemind when my post is especially about the hivemind...

How can we not invade Iraq when they have weapons of mass destruction... also let's not forget 9/11

 

[sheek]

I think Excrément is right although he generalizes too much. There is a group on this forum who irrationally hate Oblivion but who like Daggerfall. Twinfalls is the most obvious example but there are others. Those people I do wonder about. To me there are two honorable positions... either you like the Bethesda 'sand-box' type of game in which case both are about the same and Oblivion is actually more fun (better fighting, nicer environment). Or you dislike it and do not call the Bethesda style RPG in which case you don't give a fuck about either of them. I do not get angry when Quake 4 is almost exactly the same as Quake 1 or that GTA 2 was not designed as a hard-core RPG, I do not even waste my time thinking about those games.

 

[kris]

There is a group on this forum who irrationally hate Oblivion but who like Daggerfall. Twinfalls is the most obvious example but there are others.

You better name them, for one person doesn't constitute a group.

To me there are two honorable positions... either you like the Bethesda 'sand-box' type of game in which case both are about the same and Oblivion is actually more fun (better fighting, nicer environment). Or you dislike it and do not call the Bethesda style RPG in which case you don't give a fuck about either of them.

People don't have to love Oblivion if they love sand-box games. It is mroe down to the features of it. I love the inherent freedom of going where I like too in a sand-box game, but I didn't like Morrowind or Oblivion. Problems follow:

- There are no interesting or memorable characters in the games.
- Low quality of quests.
- Gameworld to static and hardly reacts on what you do, not even give you the illusion of that.
- If you want to have a "living world", then make it living. Oblivion failed spectaculary in that.
- Your character doesn't become unique, since you can max all skills and be head of all organisations.

IMO, they are pretty bad sand-box games, but on the other hand pretty good dungeon crawlers. I could probably come up with more points...

 

[denizsi]

either you like the Bethesda 'sand-box' type of game in which case both are about the same and Oblivion is actually more fun (better fighting, nicer environment)

So, are you trying to state an opinion there, or impose one?

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

I think Excrément is right although he generalizes too much. There is a group on this forum who irrationally hate Oblivion but who like Daggerfall. Twinfalls is the most obvious example but there are others. Those people I do wonder about. To me there are two honorable positions... either you like the Bethesda 'sand-box' type of game in which case both are about the same and Oblivion is actually more fun (better fighting, nicer environment). Or you dislike it and do not call the Bethesda style RPG in which case you don't give a fuck about either of them. I do not get angry when Quake 4 is almost exactly the same as Quake 1 or that GTA 2 was not designed as a hard-core RPG, I do not even waste my time thinking about those games.

Hmm, I have just the opposite view. It's very frequent for fanboys to hate a company like Bethesda or a series like TES. Or to give a recent example, the 1UP reviewer who hated D&D. You can't expect such a person to give a good review of, in the first case, Oblivion or, in the second case, Neverwinter Nights. VD and Twinfalls attack Oblivion by comparing it to Daggerfall and sometimes Morrowind, which are perfectly fitting games to compare it to. If they didn't the ESF-ers would just say "You guys just hate everything that isn't Fallout". Nobody, for example, would look to Roqua to review a TES game, because they're first-person and real-time. We all know he'd dislike it without his playing it even being necessary. I take him seriously for his thoughts on what qualifies as an RPG (although for me it's sort of a sliding scale rather than binary possibilities) but not for whether Oblivion is good.

 

[Twinfalls]

Wow, tropes and dumbfuckery abound in this one.

and now, imagine daggerfall and morrowind never existed and Oblivion is the first game from bethesda since Arena.

This is a spurious and does not illuminate anything, because:

1. Bethesda should be assessed according to what it has done with TES. A huge part of Oblivion's appeal and success has to do with the TES gameworld, lore, history, and TES game design - stuff that was created by the Daggerfall team, and used by the new incarnation of the company (but butchered, of course).

2. You are forgetting the hype. Radiant AI, the bookseller, the politics, all of MSFD's crap, etc etc. This is New Bethesda's practice (Fargoth's gold), and you can't just conveniently forget it when you are looking at the Codex response to Oblivion.

3. Even if your conceit was indulged - let's pretend Bethesda burst onto the scene with Oblivion, and its effects were the same. Would we all be talking differently? How would the Codex feel about a game that is annointed 'the best RPG ever, the pinnacle of the genre' by reason of its hype - and that game features no real choices, it features pop-up spoilers, it features a SuperMario GPS, it features a stupid, repetitive MQ, it features abysmal mechanics (economy, scaling, balance) etc etc?

[Daggerfall/Oblivion] character development : the level scaling system terribly suck in both case

No. Daggerfall's main quest dungeons were not scaled, they were fixed. Daggerfall's other NPCs scaled up in equipment, but only dropped high level armour in occasional bits and pieces. It took a long time to get a complete set of ebony for example. Contrast with Oblivion, where after a certain level bandits will wear full ebony, and killing one will instantly give you the full set.

Furthermore, Daggerfall had a reason for its scaling - it had a genuinely huge world. Oblivion does not - Bethesda even touted it as being 'hand-made'! Cake/eating it.

the quest in daggerfall were more boring and repetitive, don't use the pretexts of the 3 or 4 quests with multiple endings to say the quests were better.

Trope. Ted Peterson in an interview mentioned that he himself designed over a hundred distinct quests for that game. He put the total figure at closer to two hundred. It will seem more repetitive if you continually take tasks from the same types of source.

And so, from Tweedledee to Tweedledumbass:

I think Excrément is right although he generalizes too much. There is a group on this forum who irrationally hate Oblivion but who like Daggerfall. Twinfalls is the most obvious example but there are others. To me there are two honorable positions... either you like the Bethesda 'sand-box' type of game in which case both are about the same and Oblivion is actually more fun (better fighting, nicer environment). Or you dislike it and do not call the Bethesda style RPG in which case you don't give a fuck about either of them. I do not get angry when Quake 4 is almost exactly the same as Quake 1 or that GTA 2 was not designed as a hard-core RPG, I do not even waste my time thinking about those games.

Daggerfall is 'about the same' as Oblivion? Not only have you clearly not really played Daggerfall, you have also not bothered to read the many posts here on this topic by informed people - which you really should if you're going to mouth off about those people.

 

[OccupatedVoid]

RPG Codex: The NEW TNT.

We know drama.