Incline Dominions 4 announced

[Dim]

you research the spells and unlike 4x theres no reason to research EVERYTHING

 

[pakoito]

you research the spells and unlike 4x theres no reason to research EVERYTHING

I think he's trolling ore on the lines of researh becoming a tree with interdependencies, and getting a milestone +1% happiness, instead of putting all your eggs in one specialty and unlocking a lot of awesome at the same time.

The school of One True Design strikes again. May I suggest FFH2 for him?

 

[thesheeep]

MadMaxHellfire is not wrong about the game's interface.

I love the game, but is anyone seriously claiming that this games interface and commands are not downright abysmal? IMO, if RTFM is required, the game is not clearly enough documented in-game. There is no game mechanic that could not be explained in-game. But if you do need to read manuals and tutorials, it should be about mechanics and strategies, not about "where the heck do I even need to click/ what does what / how do I find idle commanders?"
DOS strategy games in the 90s had more intuitive design. And it is not like doing it better would be that hard. A stupid in-game list with all shortcuts (no manual is up-to-date on this, some even wrong) would improve things already, this is how bad it is. ZOMG, imagine helpful tooltips! The devs are just sitting on the same outdated engine and UI since I don't know how long and do not feel the need to improve anything. Tbh, they do make a rather lazy impression.

Imagine this thing ported to an actual engine with actual capabilities and great UI (while keeping all mechanics intact, of course).
If that would not be heavan, I don't know what would.

 

[Dayyālu]

DOS strategy games in the 90s had more intuitive design. And it is not like doing it better would be that hard. A stupid in-game list with all shortcuts (no manual is up-to-date on this, some even wrong) would improve things already, this is how bad it is. ZOMG, imagine helpful tooltips! The devs are just sitting on the same outdated engine and UI since I don't know how long and do not feel the need to improve anything. Tbh, they do make a rather lazy impression. Imagine this thing ported to an actual engine with actual capabilities and great UI (while keeping all mechanics intact, of course).

First, this is not their primary focus in life. Dominions is for them a hobby, and for such a thing they do quite a good job. Compare "Recycling Man" Vogel. Yet, on that I agree, as a up-to-date shortcut list would solve many problems (and avoid poor me mining shortcuts from the "Do you know?" Thread on Desura).

Second, I disagree on the clunkiness. They have improved the interface with every iteration, and saying that '90 DOS games had a better interface is a "poetic exaggeration" at best. M.O.O. sure, but many others like M.A.X. where kinda harsh to get in. They're not Paradox, they lack the resources and the means. For what they have, it is adequate.

Gosh, now I had the worst thought. A Paradox Dominions game: "New nation for 2.99" "Pretender Pack: 5.99" "UW Nations Pack 7.99"!

Nightmarish.

 

[Joined on the 4th of July]

There's an up-to-date ingame shortcut list. Press '?' Sure it is quite well hidden, which boggles the mind, I didn't know about it until someone told me in the other thread here.

I think the UI works quite well, even if it does so by relying very heavily on shortcuts. And sure it is very old style, you couldn't translate it to touchscreen unlike many of the more modern strategy game UIs.

edit: help from ? is also context sensitive, so you get another shortcut list when in army setup screen and so on.

 

[DakaSha]

Almost every tedious task is accounted for in the game. It could be done better and the help menus could be more obvious, but once you know how to play (and quit bitching) the game becomes much more enjoyable. There are buttons for setting troops to retreat (r), saving command lists (Ctrl + #), automating tasks, pretty much everything you need.

 

[KoolNoodles]

Playing a blood economy, arguably the most tedious play in Dom, is no worse with knowledge of shortcuts, than any big name strategy game. One must accept a certain amount of micro and tediousness to play strategy games. I don't click end turn in Civ, because I have an enter key. Just learn the dang hotkeys.

 

[DakaSha]

Blood economy really is a pain either way, but yes the pain can be greatly reduced with knowledge of how the game works

 

[Dim]

feel the pain of your underlings

 

[thesheeep]

feel the pain of your underlings

Forced meta gaming

 

[DakaSha]

Where can i get an exhaustive list of the effects of the different magic paths? For instance Death increased fear by 1, earth increases protection, etc. They all have affects like this but i cant find an actual full list

 

[SerratedBiz]

Is this it? I don't even play the game but this is what happens you google it.

 

[TripJack]

those are bless effects

Where can i get an exhaustive list of the effects of the different magic paths? For instance Death increased fear by 1, earth increases protection, etc. They all have affects like this but i cant find an actual full list

the manual, page 97

 

[Kane]

The Interface is awful. It has gotten better, yes, but it still fails to scale appropriately into endgame, when your castles are full and the move orders are plenty. Engine wise, all I miss are colored borders like in Paradox games.

 

[Grimwulf]

Here be the butthurt post. A lot of techincal in-depth rambling, so it's boring. You have been warned.

So. Has anybody played EA Xibalba after the latest patch? I'm playing it currently. Not that I wanted to (thanks, raw). I'm sick tired of this nation, and nerfing it in the middle of ongoing pbem didn't help either. But since I'm not a giving up man, I've been playing it a lot in SP lately, trying to figure it out. My ongoing pbem is pretty much fucked already, but I still can't get this fucking nation. It's so unpleasant. So one-sided. So goddamn awkward to play.

First and main question - how the FUCK am I supposed to form blood patrols? All recruitable units cannot patrol whatsoever - none of them. Except for the scorpions. We have three types of scorpions:
1. Big expensive ones, with recruitment limit. Obviously not fit for that task.
2. Middle ones for 5gp/unit, which I don't know why even exist.
3. Tiny ones, only for 1gp and 1 res per unit. Maintenance cost - 1gp per year. Yay?

NAY. As obvious as they seem at first, they are fucking WORTHLESS at blood patrols. First: they have Magic Being trait, meaning they need a commander with magical leadership. Which in it's turn means you can't hire neutral commanders for blood patrols - you have to spend castle turns. And you have to spend them a lot. For one standard blood hunter (Ah Nakom with B1 + Blood Searcher 1 trait + Sanguine Dowsing Rod = B3) you need at least 160 tiny scorpions, and even then be ready to see unrest penetrating red zone on a constant basis. More hunters in one province = more scorpions and trainers. If you have an Onaqui present (increases unrest) - your scorpions are no good. I believe the reason for scorps to be that much worthless is their low speed. At first I thought that's just my bad luck - almost ruined my early game in ongoing pbem, coz I relied on scorps too much. Well, no. They are good for nothing, and this method really doesn't work.

Obviously no player would use neutral units like Militia for EA Xibalba blood patrols (ok, I'll stop repeating "EA" from this point). Your upkeep will eventually suffocate you. Using freespawn bats from Onaquis might be an option, especially if you don't use bless-strategy, but you'll need maxed out dominion and quiet a few Onaquis. AND someone to lead demons. Mound King or whatever. An awkward solution, to put it mildly.

But what else? Call of the Winds - yes, good one. Expensive as fuck, though. It's not easy to roll an A1 caster playing as Xib, and air income can be quiet a problem until you rush someone with air gems. But even when you get them (which might not even happen!), it's an expensive solution, not fit for large-scale hunting. You'll have to concentrate hunters in just a few provinces, which is not always bad, but still. I refuse to believe that birds were supposed to used as blood patrols.

And here we come to the solution which I think was intented to be used for Xibalba. Cross Breeding. But GOOD GODS - this is fucking insane when a nation who's only late-game strength is blood has NO CHOICE but to use mutants for blood patrols. I've started several sp sessions trying to implement them. Eventually it works, but it is such a bitch to establish blood flow in early game.

Heh, yeah. Early game. Xibalba has two main features:
1. An absolutely dominating nation in early game, pretty much impossible to beat. Xibalba is capable of wiping out small nations in just a few turns. Hundreds upon hundreds of dirt-cheap flying strealthy units with map move 3, perfect at destroying any kind of PD, and absolutely expendable in any numbers.
2. No late game. Why?

BECAUSE RESEARCH - THAT'S WHY! Ok, so answer me this - fucking WHEN are you going to research? WHO is supposed to research? When you play Xib, your game goes like this:

1. First turns: expansion parties. You can only hire Ajaws for it, because other do not have the leadership to lead your bat hordes. Ajaws do not have research. Hiring new expansion parties will take you a LOT of turns, because:
- they are not gud at surviving, but rather glass cannons - you need fresh meat too keep growing;
- flying mm3 makes you very flexible, and expanding period is longer than of average nation. After all, you have to use those few strong sides that Xibalba has.

2. When your expansion is coming to an end, you need to start gem searching and amassing Sacred Scorpions. And you'd better start doing it early, because map move 1 is no joke. Hire Chilans, search for earth, and spend most of them on the scorps.

Sacred Scorps is your only actual non-chaff weapon for actual early game fighting. Unless you find smth like Jade Maidens or Pegasus Raiders, which is cool. I'm speaking major-bless strategies, of course (if you don't have a major bless as Xib, you are already fucked). Sun Guides? USELESS. Map Move 2 makes them too slow for striking teams, and they remain too weak for heavy armies. They rarely survive a single hit, being just an improved slower version of your existing glass cannons. The sooner you forget about them - the more money you'll have for something actually useful. The only use they have is bodyguard duty for elite cap-only casters (Ah K'in Kan Ek'), which also have mm2.

That being said, Sacred Scorps is your only bet. Cool, but slow to move around and even slower to amass (only 1 scorp per summoning). Better start summoning early.

3. Is it time to hire research yet? FUCK NO. Now it's time to actually start blood hunting. Sacred Scorps will get old very soon, if you play your early wars good. And you'd better do a lot of rush-attacks, coz later in the game you will lose this ability. When your nation gets big, you will need strong and mobile units for military logistics, apart from freespawn bats. I'm speaking Ozelotls, of course. Fast, strong, deadly. Bloody expensive. And you won't believe how slow is Xibalba blood economy, until you actually try it. You have no choice, but hire a lot of Scorp Trainers for patrols and Ah Nakoms for hunting. Alternatively you can hire potential researchers for blood hunting, coz you'll have to stop the hunting from time to time (scorps can barely keep unrest below 50), and your mages can do a bit of research while at it.

4. I can has research now? pls? FUCK NO, you can't. It is high time to start poppin Ah K'ins. And not for research purposes, trust me on that. Why then? Well, look closely at your recruitable spellcasters and answer me one simple question: who is going to summon your main mid-game power cannon, Ozelotls? Hm? Oh, that's unfortunate. Turns out, XIBALBA HAS NO GUARANTEED F1B1. You have to roll the fucker. Have you got enough palisades with labs and temples by now? If so - gud, congrats. Just spam them on large scale, and you should get lucky eventually. That's another reason to make early rushes, by the way. You just won't have the gold to build all those forts and labs yourself.

Most of Ah K'ins will not be F1B1 - some of unwanted ones can be used for research. Just some of them. A few of them, to be honest. Because you will need most of Ah K'ins for gem search, forging and combat casting. You'll need a lot of Sceptres of Authority for your Batabs. Batabs is Xibalba spies who can be hired outside castles (caves and forests only), have flying and map move 3 and 40 leadership. You can't waste castle hiring turns on Ajaws, so Batabs will soon become your main commanders for batmen raiders. Sceptres will make their leadership decent and will allow to cast Combustion. One of the few spells that Xibalba can use during early game. Most of the spells will be absolutely useless for your mages because of low precision.

Many other Ah K'ins will lead armies and join battles as well. They can at least cast some high-precision spells (Combustion, Rage), have decent leadership, H1 to bless sacreds and so on. Only a few Ah K'ins will remain in the capital to do research.

You may notice that Chilans don't have to summon scorpions til the end of the world, and they are worhthless in combat as well (D1E1 with Precision 5 - give me a break). Can they research? They could. They could. BUT WHO THE FUCK will lead freespawn bats (which are considered demons) into battle? WHO? Ah K'ins with FIVE points of demon leadership? Onaquis - you only have so much of them. Camazotz - old, slow to recruit, expensive, and mostly useless (have guaranteed D2, and no other difference from better-at-everything Ah Itz).

And that's the thing. Before the patch Chilans costed only 75 gold, and could be hired in caves withouth castle or temple. Now they require a temple (who will build a temple without a castle during pbem? Not me) and cost a fucking 100gp. They were the only research solution for Xibalba. Now there is none.

5. Ok, so NOW comes the research on your priorities list. And for that you need Ah Itz. Because they do fucking everything, mainly they put your death gems to good use. And you especially need those with A1 random path, for air searching, Eye of Aiming forging and spamming Corpse Constructs. By the way, Xibalban commanders don't suffer any penalties from Lost an Eye and Lost Both Eyes. So you'd better give artificial eyes to major combat casters.

But blood hunting and research are not the only problems of Xibalba. The gameplay is just so unpleasant - I can't begin to describe. Xibalba is worse than elves. If you want to win wars, you have to attack suddenly. You can't just tell your victim "Hey, I've got legions of batmen on your borders. You can't see them, coz they r sneaking. Next turn I'm gonna capture most/all of your provinces and destroy your income. After that you can cry, suffer, and be annoying, but you'll never fully recover. Oh, you can easily defend against those attacks, coz they only work when you don't expect them. And I'm telling you this because I'm stupid. Should have attacked without a warning. DAMN"

Being a declare-war-in-your-face guy, I don't like this kind of play. But what can I do - random nation rule.

Next complication is absolutely no tactical variety, whatsoever. Your only usable recruitables is mobile flying chaff, fragile and expendable. Tactics? TURN 1: ATTACK - there cannot possibly be any other tactics.

Sacred Scorpions and Jaguars (not Ozelotls) are sacred, but undisciplined. Jags are size 3, scorps are size 5. YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY IMAGINE just how HARD it is to bless them all when you use them in more or less decent quantity, If you don't have a Prophet or Pretender - congrats, your major bless strategy is useless during this particular combat! Or bring a shitton of your mages. They can't do useful shit anyway, so why not waste their turns on blessing?

Freespawn bats are cool because of sheer numbers you can amass (just be sure to grab an Onaqui or two early enough). Ozelotls are cool, because they are Ozelotls. But they are all just like your chaff: TURN 1 - ATTACK!!111 They just live a bit longer and kill a bit more enemies before they die.

National combat buffs are crappy, but might be used on rare ocasions. You won't have that much thugs to buff, so I don't really understand the meaning behind national buff. Why Xibalba of all nations?

National combat debuffs are crappy too, because they demand high enough precision. Sometimes - just sometimes - they come in handy against thugs or SC. But there are much more effective spells for that purpose. And once again - why give national precision-demanding debuffs to blind-ass Xibalba? Of all nations?

Sigh. Fuck this.

To conclude my rambling, I don't ask you to teach me play Xibalba or give some sound advice that will save my ongoing pbem. Coz I'm beyond learning, and my pbem can't be saved. All I'm asking is this:

1. What is supposed to be used for blood patrols when playing EA Xibalba?
2. Does EA Xibalba even research?

As I see it, Xibalba has probably the weakest blood economy among all EA blood nations, and Xibalban research is basically none. It's an early-rush-centric nation designed for wanna-be-smart-asses in strategical (but totally not tactical) moves. The whole party depends on how fast will your neighbors fall. And even if you did your rushes gud, it does not guarantee you an easy late game. In fact, you will always remain in the rock bottom of research.

That be all. Thank you.

Spoiler

 

[KoolNoodles]

I will say Xibalba is considered one of the stronger nations(obviously with them being new the jury is somewhat out), and I've played them at least adequately. You seem to be doing pretty good yeah? You are probably the premier player in terms of land etc. in that game. They are definitely an awkward nation to play, but any blood nation(and they definitely are) can and should transition away from national recruits to blood summons/spells in the late game, which makes them not only a good rush nation but a good late-game power. Onaqui is arguably the best recruitable thug in the game. He's a stealthy flying demon beast with bad ass magic. That's nuts.

As to your points, what are your scales? Xibalba kinda needs Order. A lot of their blood searchers increase unrest. If you went T3L3, then you will have a lot of trouble controlling that without massive patrols(my experience in a couple MP games with Xibalba). But....still they can patrol just fine. The blind penalty just offsets their flying ability. Even better, with flying MM3 dudes you can zoom around to problem provinces if you are light on patrol groups. I'd still take Order though.

On researchers, you've basically got Ah Itz or Chilan. Ah Itz where you've got a lab only, makes a kind of expensive research mage but it will do. If you've got Lab+Temple just crank out Chilans because they're sacred. With a magic scale they are not bad. You don't want the Nakom because it increases unrest(otherwise it's a better version of say, the Mictlan Priest, which is their staple researcher).

Ideally you'd be making only Chilans and have Magic 1 or 2 scale.

 

[DakaSha]

Just summon a patrol, christ. Horde from hell is all you need.

edit: also Dominions isnt balanced. News at 11 (Though I dont know anythign about EA Xibalba, and can't really say if they are convoluted as you say.. wouldnt surprise me though )

 

[Kane]

I'm sick tired of this nation

drafting working as intended \wrt research and the changes to it in dom4, i have the gut feeling a lot of the nations are off right now. your question 2 applies to helheim just as well. malakal has been trying to placate me that all is well and i am just dumb, but i somehow doubt it (that all is well, not that i am dumb)

 

[JohnTheRevelator]

your question 2 applies to helheim just as well. malakal has been trying to placate me that all is well and i am just dumb, but i somehow doubt it (that all is well, not that i am dumb)

Ok I'm not an expert by any means (especially on Helheim) but concerning pbem in question from my perspective you made some mistakes on strategical level. You've sent too many mages into combat and too early at that. You focused on raiding too much and when mid game came you had no new tricks up your sleeve. Instead of casting air shield and hanging in the back doing fuck all your mages should have been researching so you can thug them up with buffs and items so they are actually useful on battlefield. I'm not convinced your bless helped you much too (you didn't use many sacreds in first place), Water/Astral probably would work better. Though I'm also not sure if going so heavily into bless was good idea considering your sacred units are cap limited. I guess commander/thugs do make use of it so it's not all bad.

To sum up my advice would be don't go so heavily into bless, try using huskarls/indy commanders for expansion. They ruin your stealthiness but it doesn't matter unless you are raiding, preparing an ambush. Since you didn't spend as many points on bless you can go into scales more, your stuff is expensive so income + is always nice but you may also want to get some magic scales to offset price of your mages.

 

[Grimwulf]

I will say Xibalba is considered one of the stronger nations(obviously with them being new the jury is somewhat out), and I've played them at least adequately. You seem to be doing pretty good yeah? You are probably the premier player
in terms of land etc. in that game.

I guess I can play adequately too, and it's highly unlikely I'll get wiped out completely in this pbem due to sheer size. But I'm sure as hell my research is worst, and I am no candidate for victory. Which makes it even worse - suffering the bloody thing to the end.

They are definitely an awkward nation to play, but any blood nation(and they definitely are) can and should transition away from national recruits to blood summons/spells in the late game, which makes them not only a good rush nation but a good late-game power.

Yes. As long as you have someone to research blood magic.

As to your points, what are your scales? Xibalba kinda needs Order. A lot of their blood searchers increase unrest.

Of course I took Order 3, and of course I know that some nations can do minor blood hunt (single B1) without any patrols, and just PD. It just doesn't work with Xibalba. All my hunters have Blood Searcher trait, and why would I not give them a Dowsing Rod? Which makes them B3 at least. 2 Trainers with full stack of tiny scorps (160 in total) can barely keep unrest in white zone for three turns of consecutive hunting. Then your hunter has to stop for a turn to let the unrest drop.

But....still they can patrol just fine. The blind penalty just offsets their flying ability. Even better, with flying MM3 dudes you can zoom around to problem provinces if you are light on patrol groups.

What are you talking about? Flying doesn't just give +1 to patrol to the unit. And having -1 penalty makes the total effectiveness of patrolling = 0.

Spoiler

It's either that, or I'll be damned. That would be a fucker to find out.

The only time I patrolled with batmen is when I captured hostile province and oredered a small stack to patrol it for a turn, coz there were too little to send them in another battle. Order scale was neutral due to 0 dominion. During this turn 20+ batmen couldn't change unrest for shit. Never tried it again since then.

On researchers, you've basically got Ah Itz or Chilan. Ah Itz where you've got a lab only, makes a kind of expensive research mage but it will do. If you've got Lab+Temple just crank out Chilans because they're sacred. With a magic scale they are not bad. You don't want the Nakom because it increases unrest(otherwise it's a better version of say, the Mictlan Priest, which is their staple researcher).

Nakoms are much cheaper, though. They can hunt, sacrifice and forge minor blood things. Chilans were awesome indeed, but now they need a high magic scale (the exact reason I hate the patch that changed rules in ongoing sessions, when you can't change the scales anymore)/

Ideally you'd be making only Chilans and have Magic 1 or 2 scale.

Chilans are worthless in combat. E1D1 is probably the worst magic combo you could wish for. Especially with Precision 5. (I know about SE via gem + Earth Meld - expensive)

But thanks, you more or less confirmed that I'm not the only one playing Xib that way. O3, going FULL CHILAN, spamming Onaquis, etc. Still don't think it's gonna make late game any easier.

And never tried blind fucks for blood patrols. Guess I've gotta test it.

Just summon a patrol, christ. Horde from hell is all you need.

It's B5 and it's not the best choice, even when you reach it. Cross Breeding from Onaquis will give you 20+ mutants per cast for patrols and several gud units for use in battles. Like Grotesques or Basilisks. And of course it's much cheaper than Hordes from Hell. You don't want to hunt just to summon patrols.

I'm sick tired of this nation

your question 2 applies to helheim just as wel

Hel doesn't have the strongest research for sure But your recruitables can forge Dwarven Hammers, Owl Quills and Skull Mentors without any help from Pretender. Once you get that forging factory up and running, you won't need as much researchers as other nations do. Just equip everybody with Skull + Quill, and you'll be fine.

 

[DakaSha]

Horde from hell is a MUCH better patroller. 55 Slaves is not a lot for 25 flying patrollers. (edit: ill add under the condition that you need them.. if you had good recruitable patrollers then obviously its shit)

It being blood 5 is a downside but if youre doing blood then i would think you are focusing heavily on it, and should get it early/mid game.

Having said that Cross Breeding can work in a pinch, but may as well just get some indie to do the job

 

[Grimwulf]

Indies cost gold to maintain. Mutants either cost 0 (most of them) or 1-2 gp per year (some of them).

HfH is solid when you don't have much other choice. Hinnom might use it, I guess. Still, the cost is making my inner jew cry.

 

[Malakal]

You are obviously doing something wrong because I fought EA Xibalba in another pbem as Berytos and he was a very tough nut to crack with over 500 ozelotls and demon bats at around turn 40 and loads of mages and research done.

Granted I find their magic to be rather difficult to use, what with no easily accessible mass buffs that could help bats survive in combat.

 

[DakaSha]

Its an investment really. Keeping unrest low (easy to do with flying morons) is going to mean more slaves in the long run and blood is all about end game dominance anyways.

 

[Grimwulf]

You are obviously doing something wrong because I fought EA Xibalba in another pbem as Berytos and he was a very tough nut to crack with over 500 ozelotls and demon bats at around turn 40

This is easy. In most cases they are not needed though - raiding is going just fine with chaff-only. So you keep them in stealth in case your enemy brings a doomstack to the table.

and loads of mages and research done.

This was easy before the patch. Now EA Xib research sucks giant balls.