Deus Ex 1 & 2

[Forest Dweller]

Shot any niggers?

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Shot any niggers?

ur so edgy

 

[Wyrmlord]

People avoid calling Deus Ex a FPS, because they know if they called it one, it would beat all the other FPSes in terms of what makes a good FPS - level design, weapons, enemy variety, pacing, and challenge level. Which is exactly what it focused and exactly what makes it a superior FPS.

So they must call it a hybrid game or a RPG, lest their Valve masterpieces and Calls of Duties end up being marginalized in the limelight of the best FPSes.

 

[Wyrmlord]

They also don't want to call it a FPS, because they are poser fags who don't want their fine tastes diminished by admitting to liking a FPS. Doing otherwise would only end up showing that FPSes, no matter how simple they are, are still more complex and varied than most of the adventure and roleplaying games they love.

And, in usual poser fag manner, they will boast that they finished the game without killing anybody, "because that is how the game is supposed to be played". And if you do something as tedious and pointless as playing a videogame without killing somebody, you have proved that it's a work of art which is not a FPS.

 

[Emotional Vampire]

Drop off the grog, Wyrmlord. Deus Ex is a shitty FPS.

 

[denizsi]

Deus Ex and stats: what do stats mean in Deus Ex? For me, they meant that instead of headshotting the enemy from a distance, at worst, I'd need to rush them and headshot them from close.

Is the problem being able to rush in and headshot once you're close enough, or that you can rush in without being killed, or that the enemies simply stand there waiting for you to come and do it? I tend to think it's the last, and a little of the second and none of the first.

Instead of lockpicking using character skill, I'd use a tool.

Tell me how "using a tool instead of character skill" works when, as far I remember, you can't pick a lock beyond the scope of your lockpicking skill at all and the skill affects how many lockpicks it takes you to pick the lock.

On Deus Ex's combat: it's mechanics are those of a shooter. It's implementation is worse than that found in good FPSs. Any disagreement there? Surprised if there is, so won't go into detail. This is not a killing blow as it would be for a pure FPS as it has other aspects to carry it.

Given that I don't think the stats had a large impact on the game, removing their effect on combat could have improved on the clunkiness in gunplay

I still don't understand what clunkiness this you're talking about is. Weapons simply worked for me and the low skill vs. high skill balance was pretty satisfactory.

a trained and experienced UNATCO agent that with the lowest gun skill can't hit anyone pfft.

Please don't bullshit. You still can take down anyone with any weapon even on the lowest skill. The difference in regards to skill is whether you can run and gun the shit out of their brains without wasting 3/4 of your ammo on misses and without getting gunned down as an agent specialized in combat or you need to be a "trench shooter" waiting to be naded the fuck out and instead be similarly dynamic in something else.

One major flaw with combat in DX is that there's such an abundance of ammo all the time when a weapon skill is also a about ammo management and that the game has the necessary mechanics to make it work in this regard. But the designers fucked that up with abundant ammo.

Such game parts should be either fully character-skill based or player-skill based. Later Troika stepped on the same mine.

I think the problem is whether some spoiled whiny faggot can have his first person twitch game as he's been used to for a long time with games like OFP, ARMA and whatnot and if he has the capacity to acknowledge/accept that just because a game has these bullet-shooting thingamajigs, it doesn't mean he can be the master of ballistics unconditionally.

 

[ghostdog]

People don't find it a good fps because combat relies on your character's skills and not solely on your reflexes. So, let's just call it best game ever and be done with it.

Period. Nuff' said.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Speaking of Deus Ex, did anybody ever push up their Demolition skill?

I swear, it makes demolitions extremely accurate as projectiles. If there are large robots walking down below, you can throw the Scrambler grenade or EMP grenade precisely at the right spot from the balcony, without them bouncing off too much.

It's pretty useful in taking down the huge and dangerous robots in Vandenburg base. Of course, if they end up fighting each other, they'll take an eternity to take each other down. However, they also end up killing all the other troops as well.

 

[Jasede]

I played Deus Ex only once and max'd Demolition fairly early on. Was a "kill no one but the guys you have to" game so I went low tech -> pistol -> swimming / demolitions / environmental. Probably had some hacking or electronics or lockpicking in there too. I forget. Not that it ever mattered. Oh, and max'd medicine.

 

[Forest Dweller]

People avoid calling Deus Ex a FPS, because they know if they called it one, it would beat all the other FPSes in terms of what makes a good FPS - level design, weapons, enemy variety, pacing, and challenge level. Which is exactly what it focused and exactly what makes it a superior FPS.

So they must call it a hybrid game or a RPG, lest their Valve masterpieces and Calls of Duties end up being marginalized in the limelight of the best FPSes.

No, people call it a hybrid because it is a hybrid game. Funny that.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

His whole article is based on the assumption he has that pnp rpgs are more about story and "role-playing" than combat and this is simply not true, specially when they started out. When D&D was first released it was about dungeon crawls and combat. His opinion, like many other peoples, is based on a false assumption.

A pen and paper dungeon hak with a decent DM has more story and 'roleplaying' than any vid game RPG.

He is right. By any sensible definition Deus Ex certainly was an RPG.

Pains me to say that because the game was level based.

 

[Emotional Vampire]

A pen and paper dungeon hak with a decent DM has more story and 'roleplaying' than any vid game RPG.

No.

He is right. By any sensible definition Deus Ex certainly was an RPG.

No.

Pains me to say that because the game was level based.

Uh... no.

 

[denizsi]

A pen and paper dungeon hak with a decent DM has more story and 'roleplaying' than any vid game RPG.

No.

Good to know you're speaking for millions of PnP players around the world and accurately reflecting their homogeneous opinion. Large minorities who play differently be damned, if they even exist to begin with!

 

[Dele]

well, i think dues ex was a pretty good game

 

[Emotional Vampire]

A pen and paper dungeon hak with a decent DM has more story and 'roleplaying' than any vid game RPG.

No.

Good to know you're speaking for millions of PnP players around the world and accurately reflecting their homogeneous opinion. Large minorities who play differently be damned, if they even exist to begin with!

It's hilarious how you say I'm generalizing and he wasn't.

RPG CODEX

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

It's hilarious how you say I'm generalizing and he wasn't.

RPG CODEX

I'm barely generalizing. Deus Ex is level based. Using Encyclopedia Britannica's definition is sensible, and any DM that doesn't provide better narrative than a video game should find a new hobby.

 

[Zed]

Can Deus Ex run on Windows 7?

 

[Emotional Vampire]

I'm barely generalizing. Deus Ex is level based.

Because it doesn't have levels. That makes it leve-based.

 

[denizsi]

A pen and paper dungeon hak with a decent DM has more story and 'roleplaying' than any vid game RPG.

No.

Good to know you're speaking for millions of PnP players around the world and accurately reflecting their homogeneous opinion. Large minorities who play differently be damned, if they even exist to begin with!

It's hilarious how you say I'm generalizing and he wasn't.

RPG CODEX

The point is, I myself wasn't generalizing

But you're right. And also wrong.

 

[DraQ]

Well that's the problem. They had to nerf down the shooting precision on purpose to leave the space for stats.

Not really, you can still be precise enough for any sort of non-combat-centric approach if you take your time when aiming. If you want a combat-centric approach you should put as much points into your desired weapon skill as early and possible and run around popping heads. If you put all your points into hacking and lockpicking, then try to run and gun and complain about (predictable) results, you're a pathetic failure who should be euthanised.

Increasing weapon skills mainly decreases time required to use them effectively which means that the "rush in, VS snipe" example works exactly the other way around than described - with poor skill you'll want to stay undetected as long as it takes you to stabilise the wobbly sight, then try to snipe the target, as running in (unsteady weapon creating spread as wide as your entire FOV) and trying to shoot enemies up close (unmanaged recoil resulting in some impressive barrel climb) is simply a way to get yourself killed, on par with attaching two armed LAMs to the sides of your head and pretending you have cool headphones.

Such game parts should be either fully character-skill based or player-skill based. Later Troika stepped on the same mine.

If "fully character-skill based" is some kind of holy grail of cRPGs, why at all make those games interactive? Ideal cRPG would consist of an interactive chargen, followed by looking at the game play itself for some >30h and character undertaking decisions matching his chosen psychological profile.

For me good cRPG mechanics is first, and foremost about making character skill a limiting factor for anything player may want to undertake - there is nothing inherently bad about, for example, melee combat requiring superb twitch skill on part of the player, as long as, for example, a pure mage will be prohibitively sucky at such combat (unlike in oblivious), even if player has analytic grade caffeine for blood and has first played twitch games on a tiny console growing on his placenta, and as long as the mechanics is sound.

And what is good FPS mechanics anyway? Doom's simplistic run and gun? Unreal's jumping around and duking it out with inhumanly agile enemies with both sides dodging each other's projectiles fired from weird and innovative weapons in breathtaking and atmospheric locales? Terra Nova's tactical power armour simulation with advanced targeting systems, complex damage monitoring, jumpjets and firepower sufficient to mow entire forests blowing them up in huge balls and fire and to melt buildings in seconds? DN3Ds lulzy way with often ridiculous weapons used to blow up vaguely reptilian aliens and to either freeze porcine cops so they can be shattered with a kick to the face or shrink them so that you can go stompy-stompy on them? Red Faction's slightly more tactical way with multiple varied slugthrowers, wall piercing railgun, explosives blowing holes and tunnels in the scenery and ridable vehicles? STALKER's semi-tactical system with reasonable ballistics and gun handling but somewhat lenient when it comes to wounds? Balls-out realistic approach of OFP? What?
Because I don't see why Deus Ex sitting cozily somewhere between tactical end of the scale (mainly mechanics), and arcade-ish one (presentation) would be worse.

AndJC not being a very skilled shooter if you don't want him to? First, a spy isn't synonymous with sharpshooter. Second, JCs skills are sufficient to let him deal with large groups of enemy backed up with combat mechs and ocasional PA troops or augmented agents with disturbing ease, through whatever method he chooses to use. Playing some sort of supersonic wallrunning invisible killing machine with laser eyes and gatling dick, not to mention ability to shoot PA troopers dead with lady pistol while saltoing between the roofs by going for their visors would certainly be much less fun.

Deus Ex was a hybrid game - a lot of significant RPG elements on a typical FPS frame.

 

[Cassidy]

System Shock 2 was far more linear, but I considered it more fun than Deus Ex because of one reason: better AI. I always considered Deus Ex to be closer to Thief than to Run and Gun shooters, because the very nature of the game favors sneaking around over running and gunning, just like in System Shock 2.

The problem is that I've played it enough to notice the flaws of the AI, which is far more forgiving than SS 2 AI regarding how they react once they spot JC in the game, and that not counting Thief 1 and 2 detection AI. I was a bit disappointed, for example, when I realized that carrying off unconscious bodies to hide them was useless as I noticed the NPCs didn't react to it in any manner.*

Still, it was a good game on its own, just not as good as System Shock 2, regarding gameplay, maybe because I tend to favor the sneaker over the shooter approach as a Thief fan. Regarding nonlinearity, then it beats SS2 easily, of course.

*One of the latest DX mods *cough* TNM *cough* improved enemy NPC AI reactions to an extent though, so I suppose it was not a problem with modified Unreal engine, but perhaps with hasted scripting.

 

[ghostdog]

Sneaking around wasn't that viable in SS2. I mean yeah, maybe you could sneak up and have the first shot, but sneak by undetected ? not so much. The areas were crafted in such a way that you'd have to bump on the enemies sooner or later. Run and gun was more like it. I don't think I left anyone alive in ss2. In DX you can avoid killing, or combat altogether, if you want to.

when I realized that carrying off unconscious bodies to hide them was useless as I noticed the NPCs didn't react to it in any manner.*

I think the shifter mod fixes some AI bugs and makes enemies more aware of the bodies lying around.

 

[Coyote]

He is right. By any sensible definition Deus Ex certainly was an RPG.

Pains me to say that because the game was level based.

Uh... no.

I'm barely generalizing. Deus Ex is level based.

Because it doesn't have levels. That makes it leve-based.

Hm... I don't actually think that this is what's going on here, but I'm reminded of this Order of the Stick comic. So to clarify: Kaan, when you say that Deus Ex is "level based", are you referring to how you develop JC's skills, or are you referring to the fact that each mission limits you to a specific set of maps and you can't explore any maps except those relevant to the current part of the story (i.e. the game's linearity)?

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

I'm barely generalizing. Deus Ex is level based.

Because it doesn't have levels. That makes it leve-based.

It has everything but a text popup that says Lvl 'XXX'. I think it might even have that. The game is played in sections just like a FPS or an action adventure game. The backtracking is scripted.

Hm... I don't actually think that this is what's going on here, but I'm reminded of this Order of the Stick comic. So to clarify: Kaan, when you say that Deus Ex is "level based", are you referring to how you develop JC's skills, or are you referring to the fact that each mission limits you to a specific set of maps and you can't explore any maps except those relevant to the current part of the story (i.e. the game's linearity)?

Yeah the latter.

Training
Liberty Island (1)
Liberty Island (2)
Battery Park
Hell's Kitchen (1)
Hell's Kitchen (2)
NSF Airfield (1)
NSF Airfield (2)
Hell's Kitchen (3)
Majestic 12
Hong Kong (1)
Hong Kong (2)
Hong Kong (3)
Hong Kong (4)
Hell's Kitchen (4)
Naval Shipyards (1)
Naval Shipyards (2)
Cemetery
Paris (1)
Paris (2)
Paris (3)
Chateau DuClare
Cathedral
Morgan Everett's Home
Vandenberg (1)
Vandenberg (2)
MJ12 Sub Base (1)
MJ12 Sub Base (2)
Area 51 (1)
Area 51 (2)

 

[Jaesun]

hay guise, Emotional Vampire hates Deus Ex!