Raghar
Arcane
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2009
- Messages
- 22,710
Poor anthony, he asked only about advice, and he received it.So it looks like Anthony Davis left this thread with his tail between his legs.
Poor anthony, he asked only about advice, and he received it.So it looks like Anthony Davis left this thread with his tail between his legs.
"Tuning is literally never finished"
Besides, you haven't played the beta. Opinion invalid.
So it looks like Anthony Davis left this thread with his tail between his legs.
No, it's Anthony who could take a lesson from Cleve.
So it looks like Anthony Davis left this thread with his tail between his legs.
Or maybe he received as many nuggets of information as he was seeking and decided to spend his time actually programming instead of spending his time on the forums. Cleve could probably take a lesson or two there.
being butthurt under a blanket in fetal position trying not bite his tongueOr maybe he received as many nuggetsSo it looks like Anthony Davis left this thread with his tail between his legs.of informationas he was seeking and decided to spend his time actually
instead of spending his time on the forums.
I think that's just an accurate description of this thread.
It feels like IE to me, except better (not counting the DnD stuff). It doesn't have the fakey swings to fill the time and it doesn't have the lost attacks and other bugs because you ran out of time on your turn. It *fixes* a lot of systemic issues IMHO.
Also, history lesson, the IE engine was originally developed for an RTS game - like Starcraft. True story. DnD was put into the Infini Engine after.
Well, I dunno about other people, but I dislike quest XP only for two reasons:
1- PoE is (as far as I can tell) a combat oriented game. Yet experience points aren't at all tied to combat, but to solving quests, which has a nebulous relationship with combat. In a combat-centric RPG, I believe the function of experience points should be rewarding the player for taking risks and mastering its aspects. In fact, I think I suggested once that you could have somehow measured how well the player did against a certain encounter (say, you could measure how much time he took, how much damage he dished, how many resources he spended, or something like that) and give a XP amount proportional to it. That way, you would put the combat system rightfully as the guiding principle behind XP. Combat difficult would be translated into appropriately more rewards, and the players would have more incentives to try new approaches to battling.
2- It also feels like you guys are trying to restrict how experience is given out. Experience in Baldur's Gate was an "open" system. That is, given the parameters, the player could earn as much or as little XP he wanted in an area. Now, it is very true this can create problems, especially to people who are a bit compulsive. But I don't feel the right way to solve these problems is simply to close the open systems. Now, I don't even care that much that XP was open. If it was based in combat but closed, I would be pretty happy. But closing off this system together with some of the other design decisions showed a clear trend toward a much more restricted game.
The real aspects of IE gameplay - hard counters (versus POE spells that do boring and pointless %), randomness (versus POE attempts at making fighters do a steady stream of DPS like an MMO game), death (versus health regeneration and autoresurrection meter in POE), distinct classes (as opposed to POE where everyone has spell like abilities, two skills and needs the same attributes), non combat spells (versus POE where all gameplay is about balanced combat), interesting itemization, slow paced combat (versus kewl running animeshuns) - have basically been put in the garbage bin because Josh Sawyer didn't like BG2, namecalls backers as "grognards" and claims they don't know what they find fun.
1. The classes in PoE feel just as distinct or more so than in the IE games. What made a ranger different than a fighter in the IE games? A few spells & added twf proficiency points vs more max proficiency and slightly faster leveling? In PoE, you have classes with extremely distinct playing mechanics. The Cipher has the soul whip mechanic, Chanter has the song/evocation mechanic, Monks have wounds, all classes have a distinct and varied ability/spell list, etc etc. I mean, other than a few kits like the inquisitor, most IE melee classes were the same except for proficiencies or some limited spell casting. The IE monk was garbage until ToB. The paladin needed the holy avenger or to be an inquisitor or it was garbage. The ranger was shit unless it was an archer. The spell casting classes all got one of the same 2 pools of spells and casting was basically the same for all of them. I mean, seriously, this is not a weakness for PoE. Not to mention that most IE classes/kits were garbage except for a few. I mean, why play a Jester or a signle class Cleric or Druid? Why play an unkitted fighter?
2. Hard counters themselves were not a strength of the IE games. I hated the god damn endless magic protection stripping in IE.
3. I don't think its the lack of non-combat spells is what hurts PoE as far as spells. I don't give a crap about "Knock." The big thing that PoE does lacks are spell sequencers, contingencies, etc. That being said, this is a low level campaign. Other than maybe minor spell sequencer, the player wouldnt have those spells in IE at these levels. The other thing the spells lack are cheapness. I will admit, it was fun to be cheap with spells in IE games (stinking cloud/web/cloudkill or cloudkill/skeletons or lower resist + chromtic orbsX2).
4. The items in PoE can be pretty interesting. I have found stat boosting gear, cloaks that not only give bonuses to stealth but also give stealth auras, plenty of items that give clicky spell/ability uses, etc. The spear you get at the end of Rhemen is pretty sweet too (you get to pick enchantments based on dialogue choices made throughout the dungeon, thats pretty good). Ya, some of it is random. Hell, didn't IWD 1/2 have random loot? Those were IE games, right?
5. Death was not strength of the ie games. I dont see how getting instagibbed or imprisoned and mashing reload is good gameplay.
6. Everyone does not need the same attributes in PoE and the IE games certainly was not the pinnacle of stat implementation. I would argue that there are more stat permutations that are desriable in this game than in the IE games. In IE, you make a dude, if hes melee, mash reroll until you can max str/dex/con and dump all the rest. Even then, you had to be midful of a few things. Dex? More than 18 is a waste. Str? Anything between 8 and 15 is a waste and your investment here doesnt matter as soon as you get a str belt. If you are a caster, the only reason to go for caster stats is the Wish spell. Wisdom,Charisma? Useless. Int? You could cast level 9 spells with idiot level Int. Seriously, why you would bring this up is baffling.
7. Do running animations really matter that much to you?
3E... ugh... d20 has its share of issues. If it were something akin to Saga Edition rules, then, yes, that kind of system can be ok and lead to very distinct builds. Though, honestly, 2E did martial/magic multiclasses far better than 3E.But I think that 3E did things quite well.
Liches, etcI don't remember this being a major part of any IE game aside from BG2 with SCS. Can you explain what it is you have against hard counters?
Theres some truth there. That being said, we havent seen what a high level caster is like in PoE yet. Casters were crap in BG1 at these levels.Well that's the problem when your overriding philosophy is "banalce!!!".
I believe this game has loot tables as well. In the Dyrford Ruins a certain chest it seems to drop from a set of items. Also, most enemies drop the same thing over and over (I think they are even putting in "What You See Is What You Get" loot in the next patch).IWD didn't have randomly generated loot, it had a randomized loot table of pre-generated items.
I don't mind failing when I deserve it but failing solely because of the almighty RNG is dumb. Ya, they can tune the difficulty up a bit. I think they just have to smarten up the npcs and have them use more abilities. This has nothing to do with the dual health pool.A game in which you can't fail is also a game that you can't win because it ends up playing itself like NWN2.
There are better rules than 3E out there. In any case, if we are saying that we are comparing PoE to the IE games...I agree, hence, please refer to 3rd edition rules.
Not really.The question is do they matter to you?
What? The side quest/trap/lockpicking/spell XP in BG 1 was miniscule compared to what you got from killing stuff. How much XP did you get from learning a spell? 20 or so?This.I could play BG1 and get XP by doing the various fedex quests. Or I can ignore them entirely and instead focus on clearing out areas. Or in the EE version by lockpicking, learning spells and disarming traps. Open systems, open gameplay.
The game has much more non-combat gameplay than the BG/IWD's.non combat spells (versus POE where all gameplay is about balanced combat)
Cheapness? You mean coolness here I think.3. I don't think its the lack of non-combat spells is what hurts PoE as far as spells. I don't give a crap about "Knock." The big thing that PoE does lacks are spell sequencers, contingencies, etc. That being said, this is a low level campaign. Other than maybe minor spell sequencer, the player wouldnt have those spells in IE at these levels. The other thing the spells lack are cheapness. I will admit, it was fun to be cheap with spells in IE games (stinking cloud/web/cloudkill or cloudkill/skeletons or lower resist + chromtic orbsX2).
I mean, other than a few kits like the inquisitor, most IE melee classes were the same except for proficiencies or some limited spell casting.
The IE monk was garbage until ToB. The paladin needed the holy avenger or to be an inquisitor or it was garbage. The ranger was shit unless it was an archer. The spell casting classes all got one of the same 2 pools of spells and casting was basically the same for all of them. I mean, seriously, this is not a weakness for PoE. Not to mention that most IE classes/kits were garbage except for a few. I mean, why play a Jester or a signle class Cleric or Druid? Why play an unkitted fighter?
Hard counters themselves were not a strength of the IE games. I hated the god damn endless magic protection stripping in IE.
That's why Shevek doesn't like hard counters.Hard counters themselves were not a strength of the IE games. I hated the god damn endless magic protection stripping in IE.
Hard counters/Magic protection minigame do present issues of their own no doubt but atleast they do a good job of making sure various encounters feel different as you can't just tank and spank/bruteforce every enemy you come across, you have to adjust.
What? The side quest/trap/lockpicking/spell XP in BG 1 was miniscule compared to what you got from killing stuff. How much XP did you get from learning a spell? 20 or so?This.I could play BG1 and get XP by doing the various fedex quests. Or I can ignore them entirely and instead focus on clearing out areas. Or in the EE version by lockpicking, learning spells and disarming traps. Open systems, open gameplay.
And you didn't get XP from bashing locks or avoiding traps, so describing them as 'open systems' is absurd.
The game has much more non-combat gameplay than the BG/IWD's.non combat spells (versus POE where all gameplay is about balanced combat)
Also for class differentiation an important thing to not miss in IE is multi- and dualclassing. If Ranger and Fighter are too boring and similar to each other, how about rolling a fighter/thief, fighter/mage, or ranger/cleric of some sort? Just because some options are relatively similar to each other, isn't so bad when overall there's such a wide array of choice.I mean, other than a few kits like the inquisitor, most IE melee classes were the same except for proficiencies or some limited spell casting.
Sure, the differences between classes like fighter/ranger/barbarian do seem to be more pronounced in PoE but keep in mind that even limited spellcasting (say Ranger's very useful at higher levels Armor of Faith) along with some other kit/class specific abilities do make them play differently enough and can be very useful depending on your party composition (not everyone goes through the game every time with a caster heavy party or rest spams, just like not everyone rolls a diplo-sniper everytime in Fallout).
The IE monk was garbage until ToB. The paladin needed the holy avenger or to be an inquisitor or it was garbage. The ranger was shit unless it was an archer. The spell casting classes all got one of the same 2 pools of spells and casting was basically the same for all of them. I mean, seriously, this is not a weakness for PoE. Not to mention that most IE classes/kits were garbage except for a few. I mean, why play a Jester or a signle class Cleric or Druid? Why play an unkitted fighter?
-IE monk sucked until level 14 (when it receives a major magic resistance boost and his fists become +2 weapon) and is a decent class from then on, way before TOB.
-Inquisitor is arguably the most powerful melee class in BG2 but Cavalier and Undead Hunter have pretty useful abilities of their own (and don't lose Turn Undead which is an underused ability that works even against liches at higher levels), they're certainly not garbage. Also, getting the Holy Avenger is and should feel like a defining moment for any paladin class/kit, it's intentional.
-The only Ranger kit that is shit is Beastmaster, Stalker can be pretty potent with their Backstab (can reach x4), Fighter HP and THAC0 progression, Haste spell (that doesn't fatigue you IIRC), low level Priest Buff spells etc. not to mention that they have no real drawback given the abundance of great leather armours in the game.
-Lastly, saying that the majority of IE classes/kits were garbage is just exaggerated nonsense. You're delusional if you don't think PoE will have optimum builds/classes/party compositions (even after 100 balance patches) etc. doesn't mean the rest of the options will be garbage as long as they result in a different gameplay experience and are good enough to tackle everything the game throws at you.