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ZagorTeNej

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Dec 10, 2012
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Can someone spare us and just ban roguey? I understand freedom of speech and all that good shit here in the Codex, but using metacritic reviews for any argument is simply beyond retarded and a would warrant a ban.
And if PoE end us beign a clearly better game than Wasteland 2 I will ban myself

Wouldn't make that bet, the only area where I'm pretty sure Wasteland 2 will have PoE beat is character creation. Writing, exploration, combat mechanics (unless you're in the "it's turn-based therefore it's better by default" crowd I guess), itemization, graphics/visuals, heck maybe even C&C could all very well go Obsidian way, that's not to say that I think PoE will be amazing or anything but rather that Wasteland 2 didn't set the bar that high.
 

Lord Andre

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Yeah, I'm pretty sure POE will be better than wasteland 2 and D:OS and whatever else. The first are glorified prototypes (even if good) and the latter is/will be an actual fucking rpg (even if combat is castrated by Sawyer).
 

Athelas

Arcane
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Jun 24, 2013
Messages
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And if PoE end us beign a clearly better game than Wasteland 2 I will ban myself
PoE actually does the Fallout-y/Wasteland-y thing better than WL2 (writing, C&C, skill use). Too bad the same can't be said about the combat.

We have access to the source code, so it shouldn't be too difficult to put out some mods to make the combat better.
I look forward to playing PoE with 'Sensuki's Free Action: Engament Removal' mod.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
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If you're really claiming that PoE combat is worse than Fallout/Wasteland you're likely out of your mind. :)
 

Athelas

Arcane
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Messages
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I should've been more clear. I meant the combat is not as good as it could have been.

Although it's quite ironic that those two games are turn-based yet have no attacks of opportunity, whereas PoE does despite being a real-time game. :D
 

Shevek

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
Umm, you could do the same thing over and over in IE and beat them all easily. Haste, kill, sleep. Haste, kill, sleep. Something hard? Stinking cloud, web, cloudkill, then haste, kill, sleep. Bring inquisitor just in case of invis or the need for dispel. Make sure wiz has breach. Tactics?

Edit: I guess on rare occaisions you prebuff, attack and pray (dragons) or you cheese shit with traps/skull traps too. Almost forgot those.

This is absolute bullshit, the tactics you describe work only for about 60-65% of the encounters and even then only if your party is specifically customized for that tactic. And they wouldn't work unless you are the appropiate level for the encounter. Off the top of my head, quests that may surprise you by trapping you in them and forcing you to find more creative tactics because you might be a lower level than advisable: Illithids in sewers, Planar Sphere, The Unseeing Eye, The Circus (it's at the beginning before you have haste). In a game which has one of the best, if not the best combat encounters, you are telling me you can brute force anything with haste + sleeps and prebuffing. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. No.

This is exactly like people talking about JA2 but they only played on easy or for a few hours. Or maybe you are just lying intentionally to serve your purpose...In any case your statement above is bullshit.

Also breach breach breach mage battles are a very late game issue, but people talk about it like it happened every other encounter.

Pre-buffing - buffs have limited time especially the important ones and also not all are group casted. If you spent time adding all the shit on your guys, half would expire after the first round.

If you want to defend POE at all costs, fine, but stop it with the bullshit and highly inaccurate statements.

Man, Ive played BG1/2/T/EE, IWD1/2/1EE, PST, etc several times. Unless you mod the game so enemies prebuff and have better ai (SCS, BP, encounter mods, etc), those tactics are all you need. There is a reason those mods exist. Those tactics are literally all you need in the vanilla game.

Also, as far this:

more creative tactics because you might be a lower level than advisable

Um, leave and come back? Lol

And to this:
Also breach breach breach mage battles are a very late game issue, but people talk about it like it happened every other encounter.
Well, how often it did or didnt happen didn't change that it sucked.
 
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Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
It can also depend on your difficulty setting, and also if you don't cheese the shit out of the IE games it's way more fun, more fun than not cheesing the shit out of Pillars of Eternity.
 
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SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
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Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Breach Breach Breach (or better, dispel, ruby ray etc, immunity: abjuration bullshit) mage battles happened all the time even in BG1 with SCS. Which btw sucks all the fun out of triple multis because your caster level is shit. Caster level is a truly despicable 'hard counter' on top of a puzzle.
 

Shevek

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First time I played BG1, I think it was at "Core Rules" with random hp on level up if I remember right (long ass time ago). I have tried different difficulties since then. I like insane difficulty or hard difficulty with the mod that gives you 75% hp on level up (NWN style, I think the tweaks mod called it).

I dunno, I guess you can try to not cheese the game but there are many many ways to cheese things in the IE games. Many of the spells are specifically designed to help you cheese things.
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
BG1 without mods like SCS is pretty much only good on Core Rules, lower difficulty settings are silly because they reduce your XP gain. When I play BG1 I don't use Wands of Sleep/Paralyze, Algernon's Cloak (except in a couple of instances, like charming Tazok at the bandit camp), rest spamming, web/fireball etc

The game plays a bit differently if you use BGT or BG:EE though, I just use default BG1, but that may not be feasible if you don't own a CRT monitor.
 

Lord Andre

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Messages
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Shevek Scenario time:

Difficulty: Core rules
So, it's the first time I play the game but I know a bit about RPGs and D&D so my char/party composition is fairly competent. I've done circus + d'arnisse hold and shadow dragon hills. I find valaghar and enter the planar sphere. I push through because it's an interesting quest, when suddenly I'm trapped on the lower planes and I can't escape until I come back with the heart of a major demon.
In this situation you mean to tell me that the tactics you described will steamroll or even work decently ?
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
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Messages
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Actually I looked at gameplay videos, and:
Story seems decent.
Amount of text is fine.
Combat is crap.
RPG system is disaster.
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
Actually I looked at gameplay videos, and:
Story seems decent.
Amount of text is fine.
Combat is crap.
RPG system is disaster.
Having not kept up with this whole project well myself, what have you seen that gives you such a strong reaction?
 

Shevek

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Shevek Scenario time:

Difficulty: Core rules
So, it's the first time I play the game but I know a bit about RPGs and D&D so my char/party composition is fairly competent. I've done circus + d'arnisse hold and shadow dragon hills. I find valaghar and enter the planar sphere. I push through because it's an interesting quest, when suddenly I'm trapped on the lower planes and I can't escape until I come back with the heart of a major demon.
In this situation you mean to tell me that the tactics you described will steamroll or even work decently ?
Im not going to play this little game. I am sure you can try to cook up x or y scenario where you might need to use something resembling tactics but that is the exception not the rule for IE. All I can say, is I never had issues in there and I steamrolled it. If you get stuck, reload an old save. As an old school gamer, you should know to have several saves as you go.
 

Lord Andre

Arcane
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Messages
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Location
Gypsystan
Shevek Scenario time:

Difficulty: Core rules
So, it's the first time I play the game but I know a bit about RPGs and D&D so my char/party composition is fairly competent. I've done circus + d'arnisse hold and shadow dragon hills. I find valaghar and enter the planar sphere. I push through because it's an interesting quest, when suddenly I'm trapped on the lower planes and I can't escape until I come back with the heart of a major demon.
In this situation you mean to tell me that the tactics you described will steamroll or even work decently ?
Im not going to play this little game. I am sure you can try to cook up x or y scenario where you might need to use something resembling tactics but that is the exception not the rule for IE. All I can say, is I never had issues in there and I steamrolled it. If you get stuck, reload an old save. As an old school gamer, you should know to have several saves as you go.

Jesus! As opposed to what ? Give me an example of an rpg that you (shevek) cannot steamroll and that requires the use of tactics more often than not. I don'understand what scale are we using. You're a grown ass man, of course you can finish a video game.
 

Shevek

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
Theres plenty I cant beat as easily as the IE games. Wizardry 8, M&MX, many others. I have tried Age of Decadence (demo), that definately does not look easy to steamroll. That is irrelevant to the point brought up by roshan (and subsequent points) that started this BS. Do you follow conversations or are you too focused on mindlessly ranting about a game to do that? Please consider going back a few pages and reading this from the beginning instead of jumping in mid conversation.
 
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Shevek

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
Haha, why follow a conversation when you can just rant and rave, eh?
 

Raghar

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Joined
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Messages
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Actually I looked at gameplay videos, and:
Story seems decent.
Amount of text is fine.
Combat is crap.
RPG system is disaster.
Having not kept up with this whole project well myself, what have you seen that gives you such a strong reaction?
One of reason for RPG system is to simulate difficult things in a few simple calculations. It's not about muscle tonus, amount of nutrient, previous stress, and several other factors, it's only test of your STR score, possibly lowered by the current level of endurance. It's not about calculation of CEP and air resistance tables, it's about rolling hit by comparing agility, or dexterity, skill, weapon handling, and distance. Simple elegant efficient and crisp calculations, which worked well in PnP, and could work well in computer simulation when needed and when used smartly.

Well this system looks like they first made computer game, then they said, but we need to have also a RPG system when it's a RPG game. And they slapped a RPG system on it as an afterthought.

If you know why percentage based systems are so rare in RPGs (they have two large disadvantages), you can see easily the problem they did when they are using ability score bonuses as they do. A simple increase in percentage isn't entirely cunning way how to do it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0amg-znoZrg#t=570 In real live combat, the difference in 1/10 more in STR, for example in Judo, means opponent is flying over the floor. Or for example in Risen, the difference in STR between main character and goblins basically meant goblin flew half meter into the air when he was squarely hit. Which was the reason why they tried to dodge hard any nonglancing hit. And it was the reason why they attacked in groups. Which was the reason why goblins were such PITA in Risen.
Even Drakensang had bit more crisp system, instead of a flat percentage, weapons had: 1. normal damage range. 2. minimum strength value 3. how much stronger must the person be above min strength value to get one bonus point of damage. This allowed to simulate difference between weapons that had easy handling, but an increase in STR didn't increased damage much, and weapons that required high STR to be used efficiently and really high STR allowed to do massively more damage. Aka a system wasn't a lipstick on the pig. It has been fully integrated system where attributes had clear and nonlinear way how to interact with combat resolution.
(Also considering the stats are semi permanent and basically defined for whole play, these stats have fairly minor impact on the PoE. With exception of dialogue checks.)

Which also brings me the problem called combat. When I remember on Risen, or Dark Souls, combat and compare it to PoE there is a massive gap. Combat in Risen and Dark Souls was either highly tactical, or the main character clearly overpowered enemy and his only concern was how to avoid being swarmed. The combat in PoE is jab jab jab. It kinda reminds me of combat in Kult heretic kingdoms, but they added shadowplane, thus it become a dance of dodging too high level beasts on shadowplane by appearing behind overleveled robbers on normal plane, running a bit then moving on shadowplane and casting ice spray before beasts can run to your position two hit kill you, then run a bit to create some distance between these robbers on normal plane while beasts are dealing with ice shards, and switch to normal plane few milimeters away from being hit by these beasts. It required timing, brainpower, and using correct spells. (And wondering about aversion from minmaxing, and wondering if the main character shouldn't do these sidequests before going into that area.) PoE doesn't have shadowplane, and the fight is rather simplistic on a normal map. IE games were manageable by disabling AI, and forcing engine to pause each round to allow planning actions. Combat in this game feels bit bland. One of reasons is ability to shoot into combat without worrying about line of sight. Another problem is it's too easy to run away from area of effect.

Well the difference between Risen, Dark Souls, and Kult, and PoE is controlling multiple characters which requires some kind of planning interface or AI. PoE lacks that interface, and it also lacks details of ToEE.
 

Athelas

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Messages
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When I remember on Risen, or Dark Souls, combat and compare it to PoE there is a massive gap.
That might have something to do with the fact that they're completely different genres. You should be comparing PoE to the IE games.

Also, you seem to be confusing attribute systems in chargen with gameplay systems. The latter determines how gameplay actually plays out, the former usually not that much. Compare combat in Fallout/Wasteland, RPG's with chargen/assignable attributes, with say Valkyria Chronicles, which lacks those things but has much better combat.
 
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I posted that because Josh and Tim are huge Bethesda fags and consider Todd's crap to be great RPGs.

That may be partially because of the general sense of etiquette that prevails in the professional game development community.
 

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