Why do some RPGs dangle the "carrot" in this way?

[DragoFireheart]

So here I am, in some optional dungeon at practically the end of the game. The fights are far harder than the final boss and the dungeon is also a lot more fun. I get to the end, beat the last dude... and I get the uber weapon of death +10.

BUT

Everything after that dungeon is EASIER than the dungeon. Yet I get the best weapon after the toughest fights in the game? WHAT IS THIS CAN NOT COMPUTE CAN NOT COMPUTE CAN NO...

Why do some RPGs (JRPGs are especially guilty of this) have the best weapon/armor at the end of the hardest dungeon? There is nothing worth using them on that is actually a challenge at this point. Wouldn't it make sense to balance the final boss around those best weapons / armor but also make them optional?

 

[Konjad]

because they are to reward you for doing hard stuff.

 

[Gord]

I've beaten the Dungeon of Doom (tm) on the Island of Death (c) and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt.

 

[Renegen]

Re: Why do some RPGs dangle the "carrot" in this w

So here I am, in some optional dungeon at practically the end of the game. The fights are far harder than the final boss and the dungeon is also a lot more fun. I get to the end, beat the last dude... and I get the uber weapon of death +10.

BUT

Everything after that dungeon is EASIER than the dungeon. Yet I get the best weapon after the toughest fights in the game? WHAT IS THIS CAN NOT COMPUTE CAN NOT COMPUTE CAN NO...

Why do some RPGs (JRPGs are especially guilty of this) have the best weapon/armor at the end of the hardest dungeon? There is nothing worth using them on that is actually a challenge at this point. Wouldn't it make sense to balance the final boss around those best weapons / armor but also make them optional?

Think of it this way. You can use the second most powerful weapon found in the second most difficult dungeon to use it to beat the #1 most difficult dungeon.

Basically, you are complaining that the devs added a weapon at the end of the most difficult dungeon. And your solution is simply to take it away and keep the second most powerful weapon for you to use.

Yeah, that's stupid.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Re: Why do some RPGs dangle the "carrot" in this w

So here I am, in some optional dungeon at practically the end of the game. The fights are far harder than the final boss and the dungeon is also a lot more fun. I get to the end, beat the last dude... and I get the uber weapon of death +10.

BUT

Everything after that dungeon is EASIER than the dungeon. Yet I get the best weapon after the toughest fights in the game? WHAT IS THIS CAN NOT COMPUTE CAN NOT COMPUTE CAN NO...

Why do some RPGs (JRPGs are especially guilty of this) have the best weapon/armor at the end of the hardest dungeon? There is nothing worth using them on that is actually a challenge at this point. Wouldn't it make sense to balance the final boss around those best weapons / armor but also make them optional?

Think of it this way. You can use the second most powerful weapon found in the second most difficult dungeon to use it to beat the #1 most difficult dungeon.

Basically, you are complaining that the devs added a weapon at the end of the most difficult dungeon. And your solution is simply to take it away and keep the second most powerful weapon for you to use.

Yeah, that's stupid.

Retard. My complaint is that this harder dungeon completely trivializes the final boss and makes the fight into a joke.

 

[Surf Solar]

What shit games do you play where there is only one single "best" item for each category? Good RPG have good items with upsides and downsides, not this stuff.

 

[jancobblepot]

What shit games do you play where there is only one single "best" item for each category? Good RPG have good items with upsides and downsides, not this stuff.

 

[Daemongar]

I know some games that do that, but you should try being more specific in your examples. Developers know that players should get some reward for their efforts, but do not want to overpower the character. What could they possibly give you for beating the final boss that you would care about? A pixelated village, voluptuous animated females? Or something you can use that is kind of fun? The sword of +20 that lights people on fire may be overpowered for the regular game, but hey, you won, knock yourself out with it: you've earned it!

It's all about balance and rewards. Honestly, how else could they reward you for finishing? Give you back some of the purchase price (which would be a novel approach on Steam. Would certainly get players to buy the next installment.)

 

[DragoFireheart]

I know some games that do that, but you should try being more specific in your examples. Developers know that players should get some reward for their efforts, but do not want to overpower the character. What could they possibly give you for beating the final boss that you would care about?

A good ending to the story?

 

[sea]

This is an extremely common problem, and it's often exacerbated by the developers giving you those powerful items right before the endgame, or even during it.

I guess you can look at it two ways if you want to cast it in a more positive light... one, those items let you coast through the rest of the game as a reward for doing so well during the bonus dungeon. Sometimes completely trivialising the challenge of a game can be fun provided that it's juxtaposed with genuine challenge and doesn't last too long. Two, you can see it as the natural conclusion of character progression - once you've maxed out your stats and got the best items, you're effectively lord and master of the game world, and your journey is pretty much over. Both of these are problems if you get that equipment too early in the game, though, and if it's an open world or sandbox game, then the grind is more or less over - so do you just stop playing, or keep going, knowing there are no greater rewards?

In the end I don't think it's that big a problem for most games, and usually if you pick up the Uber Godblade of Death +25, it's pretty obvious that you're holding some sort of massively overpowered, game-breaking weapon in your hands. You know what you're getting; if you feel it makes the game pointless or removes all challenge, then don't use the item.

 

[Surf Solar]

Can you guys give any actual example of such games? Other then maybe Torment where you get that "Torment" spell (easy to miss and optional though) I don't know a cRPG which does that in such an excessive manner like you described. Or are we really climbing into weaboo territory here?

 

[DragoFireheart]

Can you guys give any actual example of such games? Other then maybe Torment where you get that "Torment" spell (easy to miss and optional though) I don't know a cRPG which does that in such an excessive manner like you described. Or are we really climbing into weaboo territory here?

Probably weeboo territory, though Baldur's Gate 2 is guilty of this.

 

[Daemongar]

I know some games that do that, but you should try being more specific in your examples. Developers know that players should get some reward for their efforts, but do not want to overpower the character. What could they possibly give you for beating the final boss that you would care about?

A good ending to the story?

You weren't asking about this. Are you saying that companies should take the 5 minutes it took a developer to come up with that overpowered weapon and invest that time into story writing? The effects would be negligible. Also, adding +1 additional unit of writing to a game doesn't guarantee a better ending.

 

[DragoFireheart]

You weren't asking about this.

No, but I was answering your question.

Are you saying that companies should take the 5 minutes it took a developer to come up with that overpowered weapon and invest that time into story writing? The effects would be negligible.

Of course the effects would be negligible. Do something like what Chrono Trigger did: have optional, powerful weapons that help make the final boss more manageable but still keep the final boss the most challenging fight. Then, spend MORE than 5 minutes into making a good ending.

 

[hanssolo]

I was super disappointed the first time I fought Lord Xeen after going through that illusion cave of absurd stat boosts, but I guess MM4 still had the fucking dragon cave.

Even Final Fantasy 7 had the Weapons to fuck up your overpowered chosen one ass, so I'm not even sure this is JRPG fodder, just a pitfall of challengeless RPG's?

 

[Mangoose]

The easiest thing to do would be to have item level scaling. If your item level is so high because of the OP item, then the boss is at a higher level.

 

[DragoFireheart]

The easiest thing to do would be to have item level scaling.

FUCK YOU!

 

[sgc_meltdown]

this thread was probably brought on by the bonus dungeons added on by the remakes of final fantasy games and chrono trigger and so on for the DS so we're in purported grpg no man's land here eh op

a very simple way to give you mileage for the new ultimate items is to either balance further optional bosses for it that make said dungeon look like a cakewalk, make them necessary for New Game+ with a new unlocked difficulty, or just do a thing where the final boss i-

oh wait you just want to know why the games are like this

possibilities

1) well for rpgs these days super stat items are not so much equipment of great utility but the ultimate luxury addon for their characters outfits thereby making their set 'complete' and as a reward they worked towards for their beloved characters

2) designers like fucking with their hardcore player base

though I truly believe instead of highest stat boost item with cool names fans would be by far happier with something that changes their characters appearance in-game to something unique, anachronistic or outright 4th wall breaking

and then a good designer would change up the final boss if all characters had this bonus outfit on.

GUYS HOW DO WE IMPROVE OUR FAVORITE JRPGS

 

[felipepepe]

I've beaten the Dungeon of Doom (tm) on the Island of Death (c) and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt.

 

[Daemongar]

Are you saying that companies should take the 5 minutes it took a developer to come up with that overpowered weapon and invest that time into story writing? The effects would be negligible.

Of course the effects would be negligible. Do something like what Chrono Trigger did: have optional, powerful weapons that help make the final boss more manageable but still keep the final boss the most challenging fight. Then, spend MORE than 5 minutes into making a good ending.

Ok, now I see. It more or less boils down to game balance being right, then when you get to the final boss/encounter game balance flying out the window. I guess in a game with optional quests/xps/items, it would be impossible to balance the final boss. For some he'll be too easy, for others impossible.

 

[Excidium]

Gothic does this exact thing. I have to admit massacring the old camp without taking a scratch after all the time I spent doing fetch quests for the fuckers was fun, though.

Same with Risen. When you reach the endgame in Risen or Gothic the only thing you need is patience to endure the shittiness of the final chapters, because with the top weapon and armor you are given, it's pretty hard to die.

 

[jancobblepot]

Are you saying that companies should take the 5 minutes it took a developer to come up with that overpowered weapon and invest that time into story writing? The effects would be negligible.

Of course the effects would be negligible. Do something like what Chrono Trigger did: have optional, powerful weapons that help make the final boss more manageable but still keep the final boss the most challenging fight. Then, spend MORE than 5 minutes into making a good ending.

Ok, now I see. It more or less boils down to game balance being right, then when you get to the final boss/encounter game balance flying out the window. I guess in a game with optional quests/xps/items, it would be impossible to balance the final boss. For some he'll be too easy, for others impossible.

Bad or lazy players should NOT be able to finish the final boss.

 

[el Supremo]

Hey, overkill is fun, too. If you gained it, that is. Doing something ridicously difficult and optional, and then one-shooting the final boss - how is is not fun. As long as optional stuff is much more difficult then playing the game "normally".

 

[Leonard DeVir]

Gothic does this exact thing. I have to admit massacring the old camp without taking a scratch after all the time I spent doing fetch quests for the fuckers was fun, though.

Same with Risen. When you reach the endgame in Risen or Gothic the only thing you need is patience to endure the shittiness of the final chapters, because with the top weapon and armor you are given, it's pretty hard to die.

I guess it was intentional that you are that powerful at this point, who wouldnt slaughter those fuckers

But I feel with the OP, whats the point of grest/the best gear if you cant use it anyway because the game is over. Simply reward me with a great ending, some kind of epilogue or gimme the gear as an optinal quest before, dammit.

- Mysterious dude: "You won, you slayed the giant king! There you go, a Hammer +20 against giants :D!"
- Hero: wat

 

[Fowyr]

Bard's Tale
Spectre Snare right before Mangar's room.

 

[procrastinator]

If you beat the optional boss in FF8 you get this. Is it any better?