Warhammer

[Vaarna_Aarne]

40k is pretty dumbed down, but I find fantasy is alright. Also both settings are very unique and interesting, I don't think any other tabletop game can compare to them (although to be fair I've never really looked into the lore of other games). The biggest flaws in the warhammer games are that 40k is simple, both are imbalanced, GW overcharges for the models (not a problem if you get them elsewhere) and the army books are so infrequently updated (there're books that haven't been updated since 6th ed.)

Actually, there was one thing that pissed me off of both settings. First of all, both have an absolutely horrifying ongoing status quo with nothing happening. NOTHING has happened in 40k ever since Eye of Terror campaign (which didn't really cause anything to change, Eldrad is still the same character in the 'dexes despite having a bad case of dead). Fantasy hasn't had anything happen since Storm of Chaos, which also ended in status quo (I mean, they should have actually killed Archaeon there, since it was a copout for considering how awesome it would have been for Orcs and Vampires to save the Old World from Chaos).

With Fantasy, I have a pet-peeve with the retarded timeline. I like to pretend that Bretonnia was formed 200 years ago at most, and the Steam Tanks are less than a hundred years old and gunpowder is the New Shit for humans. But no, every fucking thing is old as fuck, and supposedly epic wars become festivals of boredom with nothing happening for DECADES. Sometimes a war is more epic when it doesn't take forever, you know.

Both of them have a similar problem with the characters in the army books: No one ever does anything, and everyone is ALREADY a veteran and has had their big moments. And almost no one has any sort of relationship with anyone else, where are all the feuds and bros? I mean, aside from the homosexual tension between Yarrick and Ghazdkull (which is never going move forward ever again, since Armageddon was ages ago).

One thing that immediately grabbed me in WARMACHINE was that "hey, a lot of these characters are young people and this is their first big war" and that the meta-storyline is moving. Another thing was that the characters interacted with each other and had feuds and brodoms, with Sebastian Nemo being the one who trained and equipped Coleman Stryker; Orsus Zoktavir being the one who killed Sorcsha Kratikoff's father and home village, with her leaving Orsus unsupported in an attack so he'd be killed; Victoria Haley's hometown was raided by Pirate Queen Skarre who delivered her sister Deneghra to be raised and brainwashed by the Iron Lich Asphyxius, with their previous battle leaving Victoria's right arm severed and Deneghra killed (Asphyxius raised her as a Wraith) by Victoria overriding the cortex runes of Deneghra's Warjack and commanding it to tear her in half.

I mean, it's not that goddamn hard to actually have your cast of characters have ongoing stories and relations with each other. I don't want to use some dude who did something a hundred years (or several) ago and hasn't had anything going on for him ever since. Especially when they're all grim, big and burly bald men.


Also, I did the "steampunk fantasy world has the First World War" thing WARMACHINE has going for it.

 

[Trash]

You actually read the novels or something?

 

[Hoaxmetal]

Sometimes a war is more epic when it doesn't take forever, you know.

But that's the main idea behind warhammer - there is only war

 

[oscar]

Cool settings, pretty bad games. Fantasy used to be decent but they've really dumbed it down this edition.

 

[attackfighter]

This is also why I play SC2. Maybe there are better games, but are there ones where I can start a match in less than a minute at any time of the day? And do my friends play those games? Well all of this is pretty obvious, popular games get even more popular because they are popular.

Yeah, I hate SC2 and yet since its release I've played it more than brood war. It's just too hard finding players in BW, despite how fun it is...

 

[attackfighter]

Actually, there was one thing that pissed me off of both settings. First of all, both have an absolutely horrifying ongoing status quo with nothing happening. NOTHING has happened in 40k ever since Eye of Terror campaign (which didn't really cause anything to change, Eldrad is still the same character in the 'dexes despite having a bad case of dead). Fantasy hasn't had anything happen since Storm of Chaos, which also ended in status quo (I mean, they should have actually killed Archaeon there, since it was a copout for considering how awesome it would have been for Orcs and Vampires to save the Old World from Chaos).

With Fantasy, I have a pet-peeve with the retarded timeline. I like to pretend that Bretonnia was formed 200 years ago at most, and the Steam Tanks are less than a hundred years old and gunpowder is the New Shit for humans. But no, every fucking thing is old as fuck, and supposedly epic wars become festivals of boredom with nothing happening for DECADES. Sometimes a war is more epic when it doesn't take forever, you know.

Both of them have a similar problem with the characters in the army books: No one ever does anything, and everyone is ALREADY a veteran and has had their big moments. And almost no one has any sort of relationship with anyone else, where are all the feuds and bros? I mean, aside from the homosexual tension between Yarrick and Ghazdkull (which is never going move forward ever again, since Armageddon was ages ago).

One thing that immediately grabbed me in WARMACHINE was that "hey, a lot of these characters are young people and this is their first big war" and that the meta-storyline is moving. Another thing was that the characters interacted with each other and had feuds and brodoms, with Sebastian Nemo being the one who trained and equipped Coleman Stryker; Orsus Zoktavir being the one who killed Sorcsha Kratikoff's father and home village, with her leaving Orsus unsupported in an attack so he'd be killed; Victoria Haley's hometown was raided by Pirate Queen Skarre who delivered her sister Deneghra to be raised and brainwashed by the Iron Lich Asphyxius, with their previous battle leaving Victoria's right arm severed and Deneghra killed (Asphyxius raised her as a Wraith) by Victoria overriding the cortex runes of Deneghra's Warjack and commanding it to tear her in half.

I mean, it's not that goddamn hard to actually have your cast of characters have ongoing stories and relations with each other. I don't want to use some dude who did something a hundred years (or several) ago and hasn't had anything going on for him ever since. Especially when they're all grim, big and burly bald men.


Also, I did the "steampunk fantasy world has the First World War" thing WARMACHINE has going for it.

Well I wouldn't say that stuff pisses me off, but it's definately not appealing. I personally just ignore all the bad parts, like gunpowder weaponry being an old invention that's never been improved upon. To me it's just a loose setting for the players to roleplay their armies in. Not like D&D roleplay where you'd characterize them and stuff, but just something to lend context to why you're fighting mutated rats. The WH setting, in all it's grimness and cliche, has proven to be very good at that job - I don't think I've ever seen cooler takes on undead, space marines, dragons, etc.. It's probably best to just look at the superficial aspects of WH, and ignore the more detailed backstories.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

You actually read the novels or something?

Nope. With Warhammer, I was talking about the last big storyline campaigns GW had: Eye of Terror for 40k, which actually felt really badass back then because of how much it felt shit was happening, and the Storm of Chaos campaign for Fantasy which even had a ton of cool new characters introduced and doing shit (and then never used again).

Well I wouldn't say that stuff pisses me off, but it's definately not appealing. I personally just ignore all the bad parts, like gunpowder weaponry being an old invention that's never been improved upon. To me it's just a loose setting for the players to roleplay their armies in. Not like D&D roleplay where you'd characterize them and stuff, but just something to lend context to why you're fighting mutated rats. The WH setting, in all it's grimness and cliche, has proven to be very good at that job - I don't think I've ever seen cooler takes on undead, space marines, dragons, etc.. It's probably best to just look at the superficial aspects of WH, and ignore the more detailed backstories.

Yea, but it makes me sad nothing ever happens in the setting and the characters aren't doing anything.

Actually, I will challenge your thought on coolest undead, since the Nightmare Empire of Cryx in WARMACHINE is awesome. For one thing, these are sentient undead with steam-powered liches and immortal pirate ghosts and revenants being on top, with the hordes of mindless undead steam and flesh constructs serving as mass-produced shocktroops. And they've all been created by and serve the father of all dragons, Toruk. Oh yea, and despite being the Big Bad in the metaplot, THEY GONE OUT OF THEIR WAY TO BE SNEAKY AND SETTING THINGS UP. The human kingdoms don't think the Dragonfather is even around, much less planning on subjugating all life in order to kill all his offspring. Very different from the Hordes of Chaos being an obvious threat.

EDIT: Also, dragons are radioactive demigods in the setting, with Toruk being the proverbial Godzilla in the Iron Kingdoms.

 

[Mangoose]

No, I love Warmachine and all, but Necrons are cooler than the Cryx.

Or maybe I just don't like the Cryx. Eh.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Necrons are ruined by GW trying to tie EVERYTHING into them and the Old Ones in 40k.

 

[20 Eyes]

Fantasy is a great setting, I dig it.

40k is awesome until you think about it too much. Then it becomes awesome-retarded.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Fantasy gets retarded if you read the timeline. There is no fucking way I can see Magnus the Pious using cannons and rifles, or them being used even during the Vampire Wars. FUCK.

EDIT: Another thing that sucks about both WHs is that GW's update model and principle utterly sucks ass. Case in point, the fucking Dark Eldar codex. TEN FUCKING YEARS. TWO ENTIRE EDITIONS. And the new editions suck ass and change the viability of most army lists!

Meanwhile, here's an example how the shift to second edition happened for WARMACHINE. At the start of 2010, the second edition core book was published. By summer, every single army had a new army book that fully incorporated first edition expansions, revised a lot of old content, redid the entire points cost range and introduced new stuff and progressed fluff. Each of the army books is also slightly more expensive than a GW codex, BUT it is twice as thick, has more rules and content, AND is in full color with artwork for EVERY SINGLE MODEL, as well as a fairly detailed paint guide for the army and a full gallery of all existing models (some models weren't in production yet when each army book was released, like the stormgunner for Cygnar).

EDIT2: Oh yea, their update model also doesn't include releasing replacement army books, but rather expansion books that add stuff to everyone.

Also, it seems the pulled the same goddamn amazing update schedule, and released the entire army book line (and the core book) for Hordes' second edition (sister game of WARMACHINE which is compatible and set in the same world), with only the book on mercenary units for Hordes still not yet released.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Another thing that sucks about both WHs is that GW's update model and principle utterly sucks ass. Case in point, the fucking Dark Eldar codex. TEN FUCKING YEARS. TWO ENTIRE EDITIONS.

Tell me about it. I waited for 13 years for an army book for my Fantasy army, and it wasn't released by the time I quit. Hell, it STILL hasn't been released 18 years and 4 editions later.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Another thing that sucks about both WHs is that GW's update model and principle utterly sucks ass. Case in point, the fucking Dark Eldar codex. TEN FUCKING YEARS. TWO ENTIRE EDITIONS.

Tell me about it. I waited for 13 years for an army book for my Fantasy army, and it wasn't released by the time I quit. Hell, it STILL hasn't been released 18 years and 4 editions later.

Well, Chaos Dwarves were swept under the rug similar to a lot retarded/awesome stuff in 40k.

I remember when they talked about there being a third Chaos army book, which would have Chaos Dwarves or something since it was supposed to be Siege of Chaos. They mentioned it once, then stopped and pretended it never happened.

Also, it's really funny how there are only two really human armies in a setting that tries to convince us that it's human-dominated on the surface. Dude, how about ditching constant Elf updates and making a real Kislev, Estalia, Tilea, Araby army or some other interesting stuff instead?

 

[Mangoose]

Necrons are ruined by GW trying to tie EVERYTHING into them and the Old Ones in 40k.

That's okay. They look fucking cool and that's all that matters.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

But that's the main idea behind warhammer - there is only war

And white people. Propably why so many Kodexers play Warhammer, even though they won't ever admit it.

EDIT: One of the biggest reasons why Chaos Dwarfs were "swept under the rug" is because they're one gigantic satire of GW themselves. Think about it. It's a race of evil greedy dwarves with curly jewbeards and funny hats, living in a giant foundry making thousands of weapons that they sell to everyone for exorbant prices. Their society is run by Sorcerers and fueled by endless hordes of slaves. Can you think of, say, a company that looks and acts similarly?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Necrons are ruined by GW trying to tie EVERYTHING into them and the Old Ones in 40k.

That's okay. They look fucking cool and that's all that matters.

I think it's time to post some models.

EDIT: And remember, Salamanders are black because of a geneseed defect

EDIT2: Also, we need to confess our support to the one true ship of GW:

 

[Destroid]

I really don't understand why having a plot that moves forward is at all useful for a wargame.

Nontheless I shall post some models from Infinity, the wargame I am most interested in at the moment. You will note a lot of these guys have swords, but they are rarely useful, Infinity is a shooters game with very interesting mechanics. Rules for all factions come in a single book (and all factions are expanded at the same time, in a single book). 5-10 models is a typical size for an army, although you can push it out to 20 or so at higher points if you eschew specialists and heavy units.




Aleph, human AI faction using constructs to protect against aliens and further it's own mysterious agenda. Supported by the two wealthiest factions, Oceania and Yu Jing.

Aliens, they are kind of like the Covenant from Halo, but run by an AI seeking transcendence to an immaterial form.

Haqqislam, Islam in space, the religion of peace! They live on a backwater planet and are a relatively minor faction, but have strong biotech compared to the other factions. Otherwise they are lower tech (fewer hackers, power armour, etc).

Yu Jing, heavily inspired by Chinese and Japanese, they are a high tech faction that uses a lot of power armour.

Oceania, are seemingly the most similar to a modern western state, they are high tech and probably the most powerful faction. Also knightly orders in space.

Nomads, heavily influenced by Japanese and the internet. They live in three huge space ships and travel around the local area. They are the most lawless and anarchic of the factions. Also Catholics in space.

Ariadna are the least technologal of the factions, but make up for it with heavy use of camouflage and firepower. They have French, American and Russian themes. Also werewolves (in space).

 

[kazgar]

Surely GW is feeling the pinch these days, with high prices and what i'd assume is a falling userbase. My cousin was interested in warhammer for a bit and bought some stuff, but i recently offered to give him a whole bunch of things that i didn't use anymore, and he said nah, wasn't interested.

However he couldn't find much else to talk about except WoW (and wc3). While its only a single example it wouldn't be a stretch to call it an example upon many, because WoW and the like has the interpersonal experiences, is easier, is cheaper, and doesn't include painting and lugging shit everywhere.

So with that, all GW really has left is the IP which is 30 years old but still enough to drag people in, so I would expect more computer based versions of GW products/ideas in the future, not less, as they license stuff out to get cashflow. I think Space Marine and BB show things are ramping up somewhat.

 

[Destroid]

I think GW are doing just fine. They are still cranking out new editions of things and new models at a high rate. GW products are certainly the most popular wargame on /tg/ probably at least 25% of the threads there would be about a GW product.

 

[attackfighter]

I think GW are doing just fine. They are still cranking out new editions of things and new models at a high rate. GW products are certainly the most popular wargame on /tg/ probably at least 25% of the threads there would be about a GW product.

Actually I think their stock fell 16-20% awhile ago, and it's been declining for awhile. The root of the problem is probably the price; while spending $2 for a toy soldier might not disuade their current customer base, it is going to scare new customers away. So as their current customers lose interest over the years and fewer people step up to replace them, they're going to have some trouble ahead.

Other wargaming companies are in trouble too though, since they rely a lot on GW introducing new players to wargaming in the first place.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

They are still cranking out new editions of things and new models at a high rate.

They are cranking out rules and models at an extremely slow rate. The only thing they've been rather fast with was making shitty new corebook editions.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

GW's business plan for the past 8 years or so has been about raising the prices of some of their core miniatures every single year. Never the same figures, mind you. Just raising the price in general.

It's even stated thusly in their annual report. July 1st, like clockwork, GW raises the prices of some product or other.

 

[Annonchinil]

I was looking at warmachine and the models seem expensive too. Unless the quality is significantly better.

Anyways there is only one official GW in toronto and every saturday or sunday there are a ton of little kids there.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

For one thing, almost all Warmachine models are metal, but the more important factor is that the game uses a lot fewer models in armies so it's overall cheaper. After 50 points it's better to move to multiplayer matches.

Anyway, my own two 50 point armies (Cygnar and Khador) consist of:

4 Warjacks and 2 units and a solo for Cygnar (Epic Stryker's theme force)

3 Warjacks, 5 units and 3 solos for Khador (Strakhov's theme force)


Considering how GW games only start to get fun when you have a shitload of models (at least 2000 points), it's a relief how little you need with Warmachine/Hordes for the game to reach full potential.

 

[waywardOne]

The root of the problem is probably the price;

the root of their problem is that the original designers are long since departed. jervis and andy made GW what it was. gavin & co have driven it straight into the ground.