Vince D Weller does Fallout 3...

[ghostdog]

I agree that most quests give you no real motivation in FO3, they are just there to point you to a new location. The blood ties quest is a good example. A girl you don't know wants you to deliver a letter in a crappy town somewhere far in the dangerous wasteland without promising you any reward at all, why on earth would anyone agree to do this? Admittedly the quest gets more interesting along the way but it's based on a retarded structure.

The android story is another one. I find a couple of recorded tapes about an android blah blah blah, then I ask a question about it to someone while we were in the middle of the wasteland and 1 minute later someone that "magically" leaned of my interest appears out of nowhere to talk to me. The backstory of the quest sounds interesting but again the presentation is retarded. Not to mention the "organization for android rights" is one of the most stupid ideas someone could have, it's a post apocalyptic world gotdammit.

Nevertheless, I find myself still playing the game while I got quickly bored of Morrowind and Oblivion.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

You need to get about 3/4 of the main story done to get PA training. The only place you can get it is the Citadel, but the BoS won't let you in until that point in the game, I don't think. The Power Armour isn't all that great anyway tbh, your better off going to Underworld (Natural History place) and getting the Ranger quest and acquiring some of their custom Combat Armour (as reward, or from their twitching corpse), which isn't that far off PA in terms of protection. There's also tons of combat armour about the place that can be used to fix it up.

Yeah, I have the PA now. It's pretty disappointing, like you said. I find it amazing how they rebalanced things in Fallout 3. Wearing PA, I've been damaged by freaking Raiders with hunting rifles. Wearing Ranger Armor, I've waltzed around with Super Mutant Brutes with miniguns and taken similar damage as getting shot up by a bunch of raiders. I haven't checked on the stats of the PA I'm wearing, but about the only thing I've noticed is that I have less AP with the Power Armor but I do more damage with the Super Sledge.

Speaking of which, the repair system is a little simplistic. It would be much better if your skill allowed you to use scrap metal and other things to repair things like a super sledge as opposed to using another super sledge to repair mine. Also, items degrade WAY too fast. My helm nearly always breaks in an combat session.

If you've got a couple of bottle cap mines, or a load of fragmines behemoths go down quite easily even at lowish levels. You just have to lay a bit of an ambush and lead them into it, the bottlecap mines probably won't kill it, but they will 90% of the time cripple it. So you can throw grenades at it and spam it to death. Alternatively if you get the dart gun schematics you can use that to cripple their legs instantly.

Damn, I need to stop selling my mines then.

I agree that most quests give you no real motivation in FO3, they are just there to point you to a new location.

Not to mention the main quest kind of nips replayability in the ass. The Waters of Life quest alone makes me think twice about replaying it. Clear the memorial of mutants, run back and forth fixing things, then run through a bunch of tunnels. Argh. It wasn't fun the first time.

 

[Naked Ninja]

That's way too subjective to be used as an argument.

So you didn't feel like you were scavenging items?

And? Do your musings come with points?

It was a joke, the extra clicks thing.

I stated that the system was overly simplified and - *gasp* - it is overly simplified.

No, it isn't. It's abstract, there is a difference. We've already discussed how breaking down items into scrap parts then adding those scrap parts to other items would have added very little except added complexity to a repair system. Crafting would work, but that is a different beast.

Way to dodge a question!

No, I answered you. It isn't interesting as a stand-alone system, but it is a good addition to the character system as a whole. This is generally the nature of support skills.

Wizardry 8? Pretty damn good, plenty decisions.

Really? So you're telling me you encountered doors that were locked that you didn't try pick? It's not a choice if you "chose" not to pick the lock because you didn't have the skill or the trap disarm check was too high btw.

Kondor/Antara games with devilish chest puzzles?

Mini-games, yay.

Fallout 3? Pretty good. You actually do make decisions in the mini-game.

No you don't. You attempt to succeed and either do or don't. That isn't a meaningful choice, "try to succeed" or "don't try" aren't choices, any more than "Do quest/Don't do quest" are. You have no motivation not to pick the lock, so it isn't a real choice.

You sure as fuck aint just clicking.

I forget, you move your mouse a bit too. Deep stuff.

Uh, no. Nice try though. The picks are weightless, opening locks gives you extra items, etc.

You know what else is weightless? A dropped item. I like the way you imply that repair is the real way to decrease encumbrance though, even the "main purpose" of the repair skill.

Come on, Gareth, think a bit. You are a stubborn guy, but even you should be able to accept that the primary feature of the repair system is dealing with the extra weight/items.

Uh, no. Using repair I can double the damage output of my weapons or the damage resistance of my armor. Yet you say that dealing with excess weight, something that can be achieved by the amazing technique of "dropping it", is the primary use of the skill? A 100% boost in weapon or armor effectiveness is "a mere side effect" compared to the fact that excess items no longer take up weight, almost like you dropped them? Are you high?

I know you are a stubborn guy Vince, but think a bit. That kind of dramatic effect on item effectiveness (and hence character effectiveness) weighs the "repair" aspect of the Repair skill at FAR more valuable than the redundant weight elimination side.

It's enjoyable to be able to repair items and reduce 400 pounds of junk into 80 pounds.

Nice try mate, but not good enough.

 

[bhlaab]

I think the repair system is fine, but I would have preferred a simpler version where you don't need duplicates and just choose to repair single weapons with a more demanding skill check and a chance for critical failures.

Overall I think weapons' condition is too closely tied to overall quality. Having damage scale with condition (as well as weapon skill) is ridiculous. Why is this Plasma Rifle shittier than my 44 magnum?

 

[DarkSign]

Repair's major function is to destroy inventory items?
That's a pretty retarded comment.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Repair's major function is to destroy inventory items?
That's a pretty retarded comment.

Is that what I said?

"The primary feature of the [Fallout 3] repair system is dealing with the extra weight/items".

Not destroy inventory items, which does sound retarded, but to deal with the extra items that fill most RPG character's inventory. Hardly an unfamiliar problem. Quickly filled inventory usually means frequent trips to stores, which isn't the most popular activity. There were several other ways to deal with the excess:

Throne of Darkness - convert into metal; the more items you converted, the bigger and more advanced blacksmith' selection is.

2004's Bard's Tale - auto equips the best items, auto converts the rest into gold

Dungeon Siege 2 - feed extra loot to your pet (now that's retarded)

FO3's "excess inventory management" system probably works best, but the repair aspect, like I said, is secondary.

 

[Vault Dweller]

So you didn't feel like you were scavenging items?

Scavenging? The game is overloaded with loot. If not for the "repair" system, it would have been ridiculous.

I stated that the system was overly simplified and - *gasp* - it is overly simplified.

No, it isn't. It's abstract, there is a difference. We've already discussed how breaking down items into scrap parts then adding those scrap parts to other items would have added very little except added complexity to a repair system.

Would have added complexity? We don't want that, do we? Btw, what's the opposite of complex? It's not "simple" by any chance, is it?

No, I answered you. It isn't interesting as a stand-alone system...

I thank thee for thy honesty. Thou art a scholar and maybe even a gentleman. We might as well end the discussion here.

Wizardry 8? Pretty damn good, plenty decisions.

Really? So you're telling me you encountered doors that were locked that you didn't try pick? It's not a choice if you "chose" not to pick the lock because you didn't have the skill or the trap disarm check was too high btw.

I didn't mean "open or not" choice. I meant that when you try to pick a lock you are presented with different options, including an option to disarm different elements of a complex trap. For example, you could disable the alarm that would generate some guards if the trap is triggered, etc.

Fallout 3? Pretty good. You actually do make decisions in the mini-game.

No you don't. You attempt to succeed and either do or don't. That isn't a meaningful choice, "try to succeed" or "don't try" aren't choices, any more than "Do quest/Don't do quest" are. You have no motivation not to pick the lock, so it isn't a real choice.

I'm talking about the mini-game. If you aren't paying attention you'll break all your picks and fail to open the lock. It's not just clicking on it.

You know what else is weightless?

I was tempted to say "your brain", not because I think so, but because it was a perfect lead-in.

A dropped item. I like the way you imply that repair is the real way to decrease encumbrance though, even the "main purpose" of the repair skill.

What about money? The beauty of the system is that a repaired item is much more expensive. So, when you "waste" items to repair, a big chunk of their value is being transfered to the repaired item.

Uh, no. Using repair I can double the damage output of my weapons or the damage resistance of my armor.

That would take a very high skill and a lot of spare items of the same type. In most cases the increase isn't that dramatic. Even if it was, it doesn't last long, does it? Damn those aluminum guns!

 

[Hazelnut]

o be a classic it would also need to have a consistent gameworld which wasn't just a Fallout theme park. Oh, and maybe a main quest that made some sense and didn't completely suck.

I consider consistent gameworld, interesting lore and main quest to all fall under "writing", since that is really all they are.

Really, just writing? Well, I guess it can be interpreted, but think of these more as design (which you write) - whereas writing of the text in game is the writing. I'm no expert (I'm not even pretending to make a game) so seems like a misunderstanding of what you meant in that case.

Ooh, nearly forgot one... a character system that had more than just some (too easily raised) skills that made a difference to the PC.

I don't know how this pans out since I'm currently only level 9 but my skills make a difference.

I know. I was talking about the other aspects of the char system like stats, equipment etc. (see bolded)

 

[Naked Ninja]

Scavenging? The game is overloaded with loot.

Overloaded with junk loot. I have yet to find a single item in good condition. So yes, I do feel like I'm scavenging junk for parts.

If not for the "repair" system, it would have been ridiculous.

No more so than....every other RPG ever released on the market, ever.

Would have added complexity?

Notice I didn't say engaging gameplay. It is entirely possible to add systems which do exactly the same damn thing, just requiring more actions from the player, ie added, unnecessary complexity.

We don't want that, do we?

No, we don't, unnecessary complexity is a sign of bad design.

Btw, what's the opposite of complex? It's not "simple" by any chance, is it?

Complexity of user action, not complexity of the mechanic. It just adds 3 unnecessary intermediary steps.

thank thee for thy honesty. Thou art a scholar and maybe even a gentleman. We might as well end the discussion here.

You still lost this round mate, bolding or no bolding.

I didn't mean "open or not" choice. I meant that when you try to pick a lock you are presented with different options, including an option to disarm different elements of a complex trap. For example, you could disable the alarm that would generate some guards if the trap is triggered, etc.

So you would choose not to disarm the alarm which summoned guards then? I'm sorry, you're mistaking failure with choice. The simple way to judge this is, if you have a 100% chance of performing an action, is there any real motivation not to? If the answer is no, it's not a choice, it's a success-failure roll.

I'm talking about the mini-game. If you aren't paying attention you'll break all your picks and fail to open the lock. It's not just clicking on it.

If you don't pay attention, you can easily walk directly into doors, too. We're talking about around the same level of "attention" here.

I was tempted to say "your brain", not because I think so, but because it was a perfect lead-in.

Touche

What about money? The beauty of the system is that a repaired item is much more expensive. So, when you "waste" items to repair, a big chunk of their value is being transfered to the repaired item.

Yes, a repaired item is more valuable loot. So then...you're admitting that repairing items for some benefit (whether more damage or a higher selling price later) is the primary role of the Repair skill, not to lower encumbrance?

Good, good, I'm glad you've come round to my point of few. Have a scone old chap.

That would take a very high skill and a lot of spare items of the same type.

A high skill results in high skill benefits? Stop the press!

Sounds like quite a positive thing in a role playing game, that aspect. That a high skill gives you good benefits. Why, you'd almost say it greatly enhances role-playing.

Also, didn't you say at the start that spare items are plentiful? Well then, no problem there.

in most cases the increase isn't that dramatic.

You must not have chosen a repair character like I did.



@ Hazelnut :

Really, just writing? Well, I guess it can be interpreted, but think of these more as design (which you write) - whereas writing of the text in game is the writing. I'm no expert (I'm not even pretending to make a game) so seems like a misunderstanding of what you meant in that case.

Yes, just writing. It really isn't that different from plotting out the threads of a novel. Sure, you have to be aware of gameplay mechanics and cater for player choice, but an author needs to be aware of the mechanics and rules his setting operates under. I've written short stories, been a DM for years and designed an RPG, writing the world, lore and main quest/plot isn't that different really.

I know. I was talking about the other aspects of the char system like stats, equipment etc. (see bolded)

Ah, didn't quite read that properly. I agree that the overall character system isn't anything to write home about, but isn't spectacularly bad IMHO.

 

[1eyedking]

You gave me an example of "the missing dog" FO2 quest, saying that you can lie to the guy, which gets him killed and gives you an opportunity to acquire his spear, and stating that such design depth isn't present in Fallout 3 and your options are limited to "ok" and "later".

I posted an example proving you wrong. Instead of admitting it, you focused on trying to weasel your way out. I salute your efforts, but you are still wrong.

Bad "No, you!" case. We were talking about skill checks in quests, as far as I recall, then you said Fallout 3 shouldn't be judged on "Wasteland Survival Guide", which I said wasn't a menial quest and rather showcase (big, large quests with multiple idiotic perk outcomes so that console kiddies can show them off their achievements list), which at the point you said Fallout had lame quests as well and then I pointed that even a stupid, parody quest like "Rescue Nagor's Dog" can get an NPC killed without wanting. Then you said FO3's "Those!" offered you a chance to knowingly send an NPC to his death for the purpose of continuing his studies (???), being loathful of mutagens (and fond of LARPing), or because you liked them ants.

Whatever.

Jesus! Do you really have to ask me to provide "do some shit for money/reward" examples?

You can decide to nuke Megaton, after promising the sheriff to disarm it, because Burke agreed to pay you more.
You can give the quantum coke to the other guy because you talked him into paying you double.
You can side with Dr. Zimmer and give him the android's identity for the reward
Plenty of double-crossing for money opportunities in "You Gotta Shoot 'Em in the Head" quest.

I could ramble about how much of an hyperbole nuking a whole town is, or hunting an android down, but you've already pointed that out in your review. So fair enough, you're right, there is low-level motivation in Fallout 3, but it doesn't feel natural.

 

[RainSong]

check VD vs NakedNinja about repairing system in F3

What about it?

Your "it needs to be a more complicated process" lost with NN's "no it doesn't".

And? It does need to be more complicated, which is what I stated in my review:

(...)

It does work well in a "good way to combine a pile of shit into something decent instead of having to carry it to a nearby store" way. I've never disputed or argued against this aspect.

Here is the link if you want to refresh your memory:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=26064

I'm not saying that I wouldn't like it to be a little bit more complicated, I'm just saying that imho you lost that round, altho you're doing pretty good in this one :brings popcorn:

 

[Fat Dragon]

Overloaded with junk loot. I have yet to find a single item in good condition. So yes, I do feel like I'm scavenging junk for parts.

That's dependent on your Repair skill though. Once you get the skill high enough most weapons and armor you find laying around on the ground will almost always be at or over 70% in condition. Kind of dumb to me.

I really wish being able to make the schematic weapons was dependent on your Repair, would have added another good use for investing into the skill.

 

[Longshanks]

As with some others, I feel the lack of significant consequences is a major weakness of the game, and the main reason I see the quest design as no better than "slightly above average", The Witcher (I'd rate this game as "good", Fallout 3 rates somewhat lower) and NWN2: MOTB both had better overall quest design. Like Bioware's "fake" choices, there are many quests that look to have consequences, but if you go back and complete them in an alternate way, you'll find that most if not all solutions have very similar effects. As well as being poor quest design, it also has a negative effect on replayability.

The Megaton quest, the showcase quest for the game is an emblematic example of this. Disarm the bomb, detonate the bomb, kill Burke, kill the Sheriff, the consequences short term and long are very weak. This is obviously a purposeful design choice, as it is so pervasive and often counter-intuitive, they did not want players missing out on much because of their choices.

Detonate - get a house; possibly lose some small quests, but don't worry, the major Megaton (Survival Guide) quest will still be available; lose Karma, but that's very easily redeemable. Gain access to Tenpenny Towers.

Disarm - get a house (just a different one to detonate); still have access to Tenpenny Towers.

Kill Burke or Sheriff have no significant consequences - still get a house, still get access to Tenpenny Towers.

 

[Texas Red]

I haven't checked on the stats of the PA I'm wearing

And why didn't you?

 

[DarkSign]

Repair's major function is to destroy inventory items?
That's a pretty retarded comment.

Is that what I said?

"The primary feature of the [Fallout 3] repair system is dealing with the extra weight/items".

Not destroy inventory items, which does sound retarded, but to deal with the extra items that fill most RPG character's inventory. Hardly an unfamiliar problem. Quickly filled inventory usually means frequent trips to stores, which isn't the most popular activity. There were several other ways to deal with the excess:

Throne of Darkness - convert into metal; the more items you converted, the bigger and more advanced blacksmith' selection is.

2004's Bard's Tale - auto equips the best items, auto converts the rest into gold

Dungeon Siege 2 - feed extra loot to your pet (now that's retarded)

FO3's "excess inventory management" system probably works best, but the repair aspect, like I said, is secondary.

I guess it's just weird that something that's a by-product...albeit a useful by-product isnt the focus of the feature. Shouldn't repairing be about...well I dont know...repairing?

There's a whole discussion to be had about how much involvement in an activity constitutes the line between play and grind-work...and perhaps I'm merely reading your detractors...but just didnt think the focus of repairing would be dealing with inventory it would be repairing.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Scavenging? The game is overloaded with loot. If not for the "repair" system, it would have been ridiculous.

That's kind of why I think they should have gone the route of having all that scrap, belts, etc. used for repair instead of using actual items. The only point of most of those is for building weapons. Sure, there's gobs of people who buy scrap as well, but.. Given all that's laying around, and given how you actually repair things.. It's kind of silly to put points in repair when I'm using a Super Sledge. I've seen maybe three Super Sledges so far. Also, what do you use to repair things you craft? Do you have to craft another one, then repair it? If that's the case, why not just use the raw materials directly?

It just seems to make more sense to allow using raw materials in repair instead.

I haven't checked on the stats of the PA I'm wearing

And why didn't you?

Well, it's Power Armor. It's supposed to be cool. Given all the play throughs of Fallout and Fallout 2, I'm fairly used to the idea that Power Armor is much greater than Combat Armor and Tesla Armor.

Then again, I've noticed the armors in Fallout 3 lack all the stats of the armor in Fallout and Fallout 2. Fallout had resistances based on damage type, whereas Fallout 3 just seems to have a single damage resistance stat. Fallout also had armor class, which Fallout 3 seems to lack. The leather armor had a higher armor class, meaning you get hit less but lower resistances than say the metal armor. The metal armor had a lower armor class, so you'd get hit more often but could soak the damage better.

I guess what I'm saying is that the armor in Fallout 3 is just a lot more simplistic, so I overlook the stats a lot more when I'm upgrading from leather to combat or combat to power armor. In Fallout, if I had a high agility, leather armor compliments that well due to the armor class so I'd stick with leather. If I had a high endurance, I'd pick the metal. More stats leads to more analysis, but Fallout 3 lacks that aspect.

Disarm - get a house (just a different one to detonate); still have access to Tenpenny Towers.

Kill Burke or Sheriff have no significant consequences - still get a house, still get access to Tenpenny Towers.

If you disarm, you have to worry about the robot in your house blocking the way to your bed. Damned consequences!

Does Moria move to Tenpenny if you detonate? Someone said you still have access to the guide quests if you detonate.

 

[Rohit_N]

Does Moria move to Tenpenny if you detonate? Someone said you still have access to the guide quests if you detonate.

You'll find her either at the ruins of Megaton or in Underworld.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That's kind of why I think they should have gone the route of having all that scrap, belts, etc. used for repair instead of using actual items.

It would have worked much better.

Also, what do you use to repair things you craft? Do you have to craft another one, then repair it? If that's the case, why not just use the raw materials directly?

It's stupid, I agree. Basically, you find/buy more schematics of the same item which increases the overall quality. You fix them by making more of these items or paying someone to fix them up a bit.

Well, it's Power Armor. It's supposed to be cool. Given all the play throughs of Fallout and Fallout 2, I'm fairly used to the idea that Power Armor is much greater than Combat Armor and Tesla Armor.

Yep. It's barely useful. The Strength bonus isn't very important. The DR is barely better than that of my old combat armor. And it slows you down, which is a pain in FP games.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Bad "No, you!" case. We were talking about skill checks in quests, as far as I recall, then you said Fallout 3 shouldn't be judged on "Wasteland Survival Guide", which I said wasn't a menial quest and rather showcase (big, large quests with multiple idiotic perk outcomes so that console kiddies can show them off their achievements list), which at the point you said Fallout had lame quests as well and then I pointed that even a stupid, parody quest like "Rescue Nagor's Dog" can get an NPC killed without wanting.

sigh

Ok, let's quote again:

1eyedking:
"Rescue Nagor's dog... You get 100 xp for returning the dog alive. If you tell Nagor the dog died, he'll run off on his own to look for it ... If you then follow him to the hunting grounds, he'll be lying dead next to a dead gecko, the dog will be gone, and you can't strike the quest off your quest list. But you can take a Spear from Nagor's cold body.

In Fallout 3 this would have been 1) OK. 2) Later."


Vault Dweller:
"In "Those!" quest a good doctor who likes to fuck with things he shouldn't, asks you to kill guardian ants in a nearby cave so that he can get close to the queen. You can lie and tell him you did it. He runs into the cave and dies. You can loot his body and get his magic lab cloak, and you can even finish the quest using his notes and lab equipment.

You were wrong. Might as well admit it instead of trying to come with new and creative attempts to change the meaning of your post."

Then you said FO3's "Those!" offered you a chance to knowingly send an NPC to his death for the purpose of continuing his studies (???), being loathful of mutagens (and fond of LARPing), or because you liked them ants.

For the purpose of stopping him. His ants killed a lot of people (which is how you get the quest in the first place). It's not unreasonable to suggest that some people won't be impressed with the doctor's work and would wish to stop him from fucking things up more.

Whatever.

Indeed.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It isn't interesting as a stand-alone system.

I thank thee for thy honesty. Thou art a scholar and maybe even a gentleman. We might as well end the discussion here.

You still lost this round mate, bolding or no bolding.

If you say so.

 

[bhlaab]

I think the main point of the repair skill is so that the same weapons can be used throughout the entire game. For example, the combat shotgun can be a powerful weapon in the beginning and, if you keep repairing it, it's just as useful at the end of the game.

Of course, this ends up with ridiculous things like a fully repaired combat shotgun being more powerful than a 75% repaired plasma rifle. which is just stupid.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Yep. It's barely useful. The Strength bonus isn't very important. The DR is barely better than that of my old combat armor. And it slows you down, which is a pain in FP games.

I like the strength bonus because I'm playing melee. I pretty much stay addicted to Buffout. At the same time, I've dumped two perks towards raising my agility to compensate for the armor penalty. I could have dumped those points just in to strength and kept the combat armor, but oh well.

Also, the repair costs of the PA are crazy high.

I think the main point of the repair skill is so that the same weapons can be used throughout the entire game. For example, the combat shotgun can be a powerful weapon in the beginning and, if you keep repairing it, it's just as useful at the end of the game.

Of course, this ends up with ridiculous things like a fully repaired combat shotgun being more powerful than a 75% repaired plasma rifle. which is just stupid.

That work for armor as well? I've repaired my Super Sledge a few times with a 60% repair skill, but I haven't paid attention to it's base damage.

 

[JarlFrank]

That work for armor as well? I've repaired my Super Sledge a few times with a 60% repair skill, but I haven't paid attention to it's base damage.

Yeah, armor offers more protection if well repaired. Some armors can be repaired by using other types of armor [you can repair any kind of raider armor with any other kind of raider armor].

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Yeah, armor offers more protection if well repaired. Some armors can be repaired by using other types of armor [you can repair any kind of raider armor with any other kind of raider armor].

So with a 100% Repair, you can make Raider Badlands Armor as good as Combat Armor? Just like you can get damage bonuses for continually repairing a hunting rifle? Or am I misreading this?

 

[Vault Dweller]

No. The Badlands armor's max DR is 16. The combat armor's max DR is 32.