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Vince D Weller does Fallout 3...

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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skyway said:
VD has changed pretty much since he gone wide with that "Developer" affair of his. He became pussified, just check ITF and you'll see.
See what? Inquiring mind wants to know.

I like the shift from "oh no they are raping Fallout" stance to "just keep telling yourself that there were no RPGs before F3 and you'll enjoy it".
Did I say that? Did I say that it's a good Fallout game? Selective reading FTW?

Now add to this his support of Bioware's rape of customers...
Support? Are you a dumbfuck, skyway? Just because I'm not willing to justify piracy and side with those who only need an excuse to download games doesn't mean that I support DRMs and abuse of paying customers.
 

1eyedking

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Naked Ninja said:
The problem with your answer 1Eyed is while yes, F3 doesn't reach the level of that quest you mentioned by any stretch...neither does 95% of the other games everyone calls RPGs. Many of which people call "good" or "great".

So if you hate that it doesn't live up to the potential of it's forefathers, well, whatever. Deal with the angst.

But some of us are looking at it in the context of the other 95% AS WELL, and it compares fairly favorably. Some aspects suck, sure, but you can say that of all RPGs. Taken as a whole package, compared to the entire genre, it rates in the top 70%, IMHO. Like I said, good, not great.
Just how much does questing in Fallout 3 differ from Oblivion, really? I mean, just adding two other completely inconsequential lame railroaded solutions and quest-skipping highlighted skill-checks is enough to elevate their quality from nauseatingly bad to good?

Sorry, but in my book that doesn't add an iota of difference. Try harder next time, pal. Much harder.

Naked Ninja said:
This is why you are all experiencing this disconnect when your internet heroes review F3 and rant for a bit about the lost potential then say "but it's quite good, nevertheless". Because they're honest with themselves, maintain some perspective and realize that, if you compare it with the RPG genre instead of only against your lovely daydream of what Black Isle's F3 could have been, it compares fairly favorably.
Internet hero?

Whatever, the point is he's gone from shunning bad design to actually compliment it, and that alone is disturbing and inconsistent.
 

MetalCraze

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Vault Dweller said:
skyway said:
VD has changed pretty much since he gone wide with that "Developer" affair of his. He became pussified, just check ITF and you'll see.
See what? Inquiring mind wants to know.
IT forums turn more and more into the generic gamedev forums, less criticising on forums that have "rpg discussion" in them, more generic moderation etc.

Did I say that? Did I say that it's a good Fallout game? Selective reading FTW?
Selective reading FTW - because I haven't said that you've said that. What I've said is that you basically say that this can be a good game if you will forget that this is Fallout which is also false because really F3 has nothing on a par with good RPGs like recent TW and MotB.

Support? Are you a dumbfuck, skyway? Just because I'm not willing to justify piracy and side with those who only need an excuse to download games doesn't mean that I support DRMs and abuse of paying customers.
I don't side with them either. Yet when I've said that I'm against such draconian DRM you've called me a dirty pirate without a second thought. It's the black/white view of yours that I disliked.
 

Vault Dweller

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skyway said:
IT forums turn more and more into the generic gamedev forums...
Maybe it's because it is a "gamedev" forum with some discussions on the side. Just a thought.

Selective reading FTW - because I haven't said that you've said that. What I've said is that you basically say that this can be a good game if you will forget that this is Fallout which is also false because really F3 has nothing on a par with good RPGs like recent TW and MotB.
What about Diablo 2? Daggerfall? Gothic? Are they on par with Fallout and MotB? No? So they are shitty games then? No again? How interesting.

I don't side with them either. Yet when I've said that I'm against such draconian DRM you've called me a dirty pirate without a second thought. It's the black/white view of yours that I disliked.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=24432

I assume you're talking about this thread. Exact link, please.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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NiM82 said:
If you've only got to Megaton, it would explain a lot - that's very early in. The better stuff tends to crop up sporadically, like Vince said, in side quests (which you mostly bump into when exploring the wastes). Megaton, in terms of dialogue and quests is probably one of the worst locations in the game.

What's MQ and how do you get the PA training? I ducked the Supermutant Behemoth, took a beating and a few reloads, just to get some Power Armor.. And I can't wear it without training. :/

NOW, Megaton sucks. Unfortunately it's a pain in the ass to get to Rivot City or Arefu if you don't gain at least one level doing Megaton. In fact, Arefu is kind of tough at level 3 if you venture too close to the water where the Mirelurks live.
 

1eyedking

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Vault Dweller said:
I gave you my honest opinion. If you want a rant, write one.
And I didn't fucking appreciate it. Boo-hoo.

And that doesn't add depth. See my post above.

Were all quests like that? No. Most quests? No. So, we are comparing one of the best implemented quests in FO2 to one of the worst in FO3. Makes sense.

How about "Rescue Nagor's dog, Smoke, from the wilds"? Or "Kill the evil plants that infest Hakunin's garden"? "Get book from Derek"? "Deliver a meal to Smitty for Mom."? Or even "Get permission from Metzger for gang war"?

I'm eagerly awaiting your insightful comments.
(taken from the lizard's excellent walkthrough, which I never get tired of quoting)

Rescue Nagor's dog, Smoke, from the wilds:
You get 100 xp for returning the dog alive. If you tell Nagor the dog died, he'll run off on his own to look for it unless you ask him not to, and he'll also take off if you turn down the quest. If you then follow him to the hunting grounds, he'll be lying dead next to a dead gecko, the dog will be gone, and you can't strike the quest off your quest list. But you can take a Spear from Nagor's cold body.

In Fallout 3 this would have been 1) OK. 2) Later.

Kill the evil plants that infest Hakunin's garden:
Talk to Hakunin and agree to kill the plants, or just go and kill them. They shouldn't be too much of a problem. You gain 100 xp. Report back to Hakunin for 2 Healing Powders, and he will now be able to concoct Healing Powder if you give him a Broc Flower and a Xander Root. If you have negative karma or if you've offended Hakunin, he'll offer this quest as a way of making amends. In the former case you still have to get your karma to 0 or better before he will give you the reward. In the latter case, keep insulting him until his reaction level drops so low that he forgets he's mad at you (bug). After that he'll offer normal dialogue, although the talking head looks none too happy.

Not particularly deep, but it's fucking Arroyo and it's supposed to be a parody of this kind of quests like, you know, the Temple of Trials?

Get book from Derek:
Turns out the fucker doesn't have it on him, and it's lying somewhere behind a four-pixel chair. Fair enough, this one sucks. At least it makes more sense than purposefully getting yourself a large dose of radiation so some idiot can study you (Bethesda's take at Fallout humor?).

Deliver a meal to Smitty for Mom:
Mom will ask you to do this. Smitty will give you a Stimpak if you deliver the meal within 24 hours, and in any case you earn 150 xp and Mom will give you a free meal with pretty much rat in it which replenishes 5-20 HP. While you're there, ask Mom about vaults and she'll put Vault City on your world map.
I remember you could fail it by taking too much time or eating the meal to heal yourself (!), but I can't remember if it had further consequences such as Smitty or Mom getting pissed at you and not offering their help anymore (bye-bye, car); it happened to me on one strange occasion.

Get permission from Metzger for gang war:
Part of a bigger quest with bigger consequences than "We've made a guide, yay", so no cigar.

Because you said so?
Because she fucking survives if you blow up Megaton, just tying two ends together.

And the ghost farm isn't? Give me a break.
Fuck, no. Fucking hell, no. First of all the fake bodies can manage to deceive you, which can instantly make you trigger an assault against the Slags with the aid of Jo, Balthas and others (no shit like that in Blood Ties); second, you can decide not to help the Slags, and if you do you can either fuck them off and attack them nonetheless, deliver the message and be done with it, or go find Karl. It's even got a purpose in it since Modoc *needs* the crops and cattle to survive. Why do you blow up Megaton? WHO THE FUCK KNOWS.

Even if the whole Farmer vs. Slags stuff sounds far-fetched this is a game that's got retro-futuristic plasma rifles in it so this kind of shit is to be expected.
 

Naked Ninja

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Just how much does questing in Fallout 3 differ from Oblivion, really?

Multiple possible quest solutions and skill checks. So, in answer to how much does it differ?

Fundamentally.


The writing isn't better, but the quest design is. If you added writing of the level of MOTB on top of what fallout 3 already has it would be a classic.

mean, just adding two other completely inconsequential lame railroaded solutions and quest-skipping highlighted skill-checks is enough to elevate their quality from nauseatingly bad to good?

Are you fucking kidding? So which exact other RPGs do you like then? Cause 95% of them don't come close to this much C&C. Please list them. Nauseating? Get a hold on your urge to spit hyperbole, please. Also, you realise that adding two other solutions to a quest is the very opposite of "railroading", right?
 

Fenril

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Best what since what...? DAGGERFALL?

Is daggerfall hailed as the best bethsoft rpg by people here or something? Or as a good game even?

No sorry, even if you didnt exploit the fuck out of the broken system, or if you were jaded enough to enjoy the "dungeons" Daggerfall is an utter POS.
 

1eyedking

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@NakedNinja:
1) Sorry, but no. Quest design is still sub-par for the reasons I've aforementioned, if you've been fooled by their skulduggery then you should re-check your sources. And they're never gonna make decent dialogue, so they're never gonna make a classic; they couldn't do it with Morrowind, neither did they try with Oblivion, and guess what?

2) Railroaded solutions as in you do step one, two, three, four, and only right at the final step you're presented with one or two bifurcations. Lame.
 

MetalCraze

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Vault Dweller said:
skyway said:
IT forums turn more and more into the generic gamedev forums...
Maybe it's because it is a "gamedev" forum with some discussions on the side. Just a thought.
Oh really? Except in the beginning I've enjoyed lurking there because it was like an intelligent codex, but recently it is what you've called it.

What about Diablo 2? Daggerfall? Gothic? Are they on par with Fallout and MotB? No? So they are shitty games then? No again? How interesting.
Strawman attack? I haven't said that D2, Daggerfall and Gothic are bad games - I do enjoy them. Yet they are different from Fallout and MotB. And before another strawman - F3 is shallow mediocrity compared to them. D2 is a fun h'n's - Fallout3 totally lacks that dynamics - you just run until you meet an enemy that is dumb and just attacks - then jump into VATS and basically watch boring VATS cutscenes until you win. Daggerfall was better because you can make a truly unique character, something F3 system lacks. Gothic? It has better writing, better gameworld and better AI. Just random examples. And F3 isn't different from those games either - it just tries to ape them - and fails.

I don't side with them either. Yet when I've said that I'm against such draconian DRM you've called me a dirty pirate without a second thought. It's the black/white view of yours that I disliked.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=24432
I assume you're talking about this thread. Exact link, please.
Well how about I will spend the coming week-end digging through 27 page thread just to start this shit all over again?
 

Vault Dweller

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Fenril said:
Best what since what...? DAGGERFALL?

Is daggerfall hailed as the best bethsoft rpg by people here or something? Or as a good game even?
Top 10 RPG

No sorry, even if you didnt exploit the fuck out of the broken system, or if you were jaded enough to enjoy the "dungeons" Daggerfall is an utter POS.
Really? Shit! Now you tell me...
 

Vault Dweller

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skyway said:
Oh really? Except in the beginning I've enjoyed lurking there because it was like an intelligent codex, but recently it is what you've called it.
Oh well... We'll always have our memories.

Strawman attack? I haven't said that D2, Daggerfall and Gothic are bad games - I do enjoy them. Yet they are different from Fallout and MotB. And before another strawman - F3 is shallow mediocrity compared to them.
In what ways? Anyway, you don't like game and now you are angry at people who don't share your opinion. I apologize for the inconvenience.

Well how about I will spend the coming week-end digging through 27 page thread just to start this shit all over again?
In other words, you lied. It's alright. Don't worry about it.
 

MetalCraze

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In what ways? Anyway, you don't like game and now you are angry at people who don't share your opinion. I apologize for the inconvenience.
well I'm sure that people who write their opinion about how some quests and writing of FO3 are on a par with BIS/Troika ones can't be wrong. And I just like to bitch.

In other words, you lied. It's alright. Don't worry about it.
But I feel so sorry for not digging through many hundreds of posts just to prove a person on the Internet wrong. I'm sure you would've done that if we were to switch places.
 

thesheeep

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Vault Dweller said:
Strawman attack? I haven't said that D2, Daggerfall and Gothic are bad games - I do enjoy them. Yet they are different from Fallout and MotB. And before another strawman - F3 is shallow mediocrity compared to them.
In what ways? Anyway, you don't like game and now you are angry at people who don't share your opinion. I apologize for the inconvenience.

VD, you must excuse him. Think of where he comes from.
Different opinions are a no-go there.
 

Vault Dweller

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1eyedking said:
Vault Dweller said:
I gave you my honest opinion. If you want a rant, write one.
And I didn't fucking appreciate it.
Try dealing with it.

And that doesn't add depth.
And? Did I say that the game is loaded with depth?

Rescue Nagor's dog, Smoke, from the wilds:
You get 100 xp for returning the dog alive. If you tell Nagor the dog died, he'll run off on his own to look for it unless you ask him not to, and he'll also take off if you turn down the quest. If you then follow him to the hunting grounds, he'll be lying dead next to a dead gecko, the dog will be gone, and you can't strike the quest off your quest list. But you can take a Spear from Nagor's cold body.

In Fallout 3 this would have been 1) OK. 2) Later.
Really? Are you sure? You wouldn't be lying to your pals, would you?

In "Those!" quest a good doctor who likes to fuck with things he shouldn't, asks you to kill guardian ants in a nearby cave so that he can get close to the queen. You can lie and tell him you did it. He runs to the cave and dies. You can loot his body and get his magic lab cloak, and you can even finish the quest using his notes and lab equipment.

How do you like them apples now?
 

Andyman Messiah

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Cloaked Figure said:
i've never seen VD lose an argument. or DU for that matter.
Yeah, but then again none of the gentlemen has ever argued with a truly intelligent foe before.

edited to insert a lost little "the".
 

RainSong

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Cloaked Figure said:
i've never seen VD lose an argument. or DU for that matter.

check VD vs NakedNinja about repairing system in F3 (before the game was released, sry no link from me)

as for DU, give me a break, just read any of his rants about The Witcher, especially the beginning of them when he was owned left and right, only after 10+ pages of getting his ass handled to him he decided that trolling without getting your facts straight is painful so he actually checked what he was talking about and tried to put up a fight but the past bullshit he spilled was pulling him down. oh well, at least now we know that he is to big of a wuss to tag himself properly.
 

Fenril

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Number 10 of all time? Daggerfall? By the codex hivemind?

I guess I should elaborate or why I think its not, an opinion for those who never touched it as well and why they should avoid it like the plague.

First of all it is quite fucking ugly, and it is not just a case of bad art direction. Ultima Underworld had a better presentation. This isnt a graphic whore whine, the pixilation is unbearable for the time it was released in and for the graphic style. So terrible presentation overall. If only this was the game's only problem.

It is too easy to exploit the game in every level, be it by simply resting in the "wilderness" and killing weak enemy npcs over and over for levelling, resting in a shop in the first city a couple of times and collecting the best gear available in the game, or using similar holes to raise money. This is not a balance issue or a couple of loopholes that were left in. The whole system is beyond redemption.

Oh and you will want to exploit the fuck out of this little gem too.
This is not a case of exploiting being a temptation that only powergamers take for example, there is absolutely nothing that justifies going back and forth in this poor excuse of gameworld without taking any shortcuts, hell the best is to simply quit the game but I am getting ahead of myself.

Of course you can try to find some sort of pleasure in collecting loot if you can find it or levelling your character and so on. You can try to give it a chance and go through the motions, adjust and try to play the game as it was supposed to be "played".

You can do so by entering say 5 "epic" randomized dungeons ( then you have essentially explored all of them).

By doing 5 basic fedex quests ( cross the mostly empty gameworld filled with a few scenario props, vast expanses of nothing, 3 different styles of housing, and beckoning randomized dungeon gates.)

You could try to get some immersion by speaking with the filler peasant npcs ( You have to experience this for yourself. its pretty sad really.)

You could try to get some interesting dialog from what supposedly are the more important NPCs ( pretty damn fucking sad indeed.)

And to top it off you can do a couple of guard quests for a temple or shop or guild ( pretty much like resting in the wilderness and waiting for the bad thingies to come and get well...you.

....did I forget anything?.....I think not...no wait, you can ride a horse. This is such a joy and an oustanding feature in daggerfall you have to experience it for yourself.

So do try to find this old gem, load it up with the latest patch (rofl) , go through these steps and THERE you essentially experienced the whole game!
A game were hundreds and hundreds of hours of gameplay are POSSIBLE ( I wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy), and man isnt it a sad excuse for a piece of shit, at least I suppose it can be considered an ambicious piece of shit, but that hardly excuses anything.

If you never played daggerfall and wish to give it a go to see if I am right, well...with some luck you will realize all I have stated is the plain sad truth short of 15-20 hours of total playtime or sooner. You will lose some time sadly, the "game" is FREAKIN HUGE :)

You can then proceed by taking a huge shit in this lovely "sandbox world" and try to get a justification for the time wasted by solving the main quest....just dont expect any pleasant surprises.....dont worry it wont take that long unless you are dumb enough to get to the necessary level by exploring the "dungeons".
(Note: the main quest involves another daggerfallish dungeon. You have been warned.)

So my veridict: It is bland, it is shallow and it gets even more bland, I assume those who thought the NPCs you can converse with, the various "towns" and "provinces" you can visit are interesting...well they surely were willing to fill alot of blanks with their imaginations.

The main quest? A chore for me. I did finish it once, it is shameful.

And the well....."core" of the game.... The randomly designed dungeons.

They werent challenging, they werent immersive, they were just a random criss-cross of bland looking halls and corridors generated by rules created by chimps on crack, and I am willing to wager alot of people felt relieved when one of the numerous bugs kicked in, or they fell through the entire dungeon into ....oblivion or something.

Im curious to hear what daggerfall fans have to say of course, I played it long ago, maybe my low IQ or unfamiliarity with the awesome TES universe rendered me unable to appreciate the awesome RPG that is Daggerfall.
Im normally not this vocal about an old game I didnt like, but I have some very bad memories.

Ultimately the best definition for Daggerfall is describing it as an interesting character generator program coupled with the most poorly developed, bland and repetitive "sandbox" gameworld, and a poor excuse for an rpg game overall.

There. My two cents.
 

Hazelnut

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Naked Ninja said:
The writing isn't better, but the quest design is. If you added writing of the level of MOTB on top of what fallout 3 already has it would be a classic.

Steady on now. Don't get carried away. To be a classic it would also need to have a consistent gameworld which wasn't just a Fallout theme park. Oh, and maybe a main quest that made some sense and didn't completely suck. Possibly a better combat system too. Ooh, nearly forgot one... a character system that had more than just some (too easily raised) skills that made a difference to the PC.
 

Naked Ninja

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o be a classic it would also need to have a consistent gameworld which wasn't just a Fallout theme park. Oh, and maybe a main quest that made some sense and didn't completely suck.

I consider consistent gameworld, interesting lore and main quest to all fall under "writing", since that is really all they are.

Possibly a better combat system too.

Nice, but not totally necessary, PS:T combat wasn't enthralling.

Ooh, nearly forgot one... a character system that had more than just some (too easily raised) skills that made a difference to the PC.

I don't know how this pans out since I'm currently only level 9 but my skills make a difference. I'm good at science, medicine, repair and energy weapons, and those aspects I do well at. Talking, sneaking, lock picking, I suck at all of them, rarely passing a skill check.

Actually, it's the combat skills that are the main balance problem, you can get by fairly well without putting a lot of points into them, at least as far as I've seen, although I haven't tried my melee skill vs a super mutant, to be honest, I suspect I'd get pounded.

Still, while the character system isn't the best I've seen, it's not particularly terrible either. I actually feel like the mechanic/scientist build is more viable and generally useful in this version than when I tried in F1, heresy, I know. ;)
 

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