Top Secret Alpha Protocol Info

[inwoker]

let's agree that bloodlines is rpg with action/rpg combat

and, please, make this armorax or amorass dumbfuck already

 

[amorax]

So pathetic that it's worth this post of yours huh? Some of your valuable time? Just not bloody pathetic enough for you to leave it the hell alone? Or do you just pop a hard-one from telling a bunch of people on the internet they're wrong?

No, I just can't stand it when a bunch of self-righteous losers hate on a game that's looking as though it's shaping up quite nicely for incredibly trivial reasons.

Then you thought wrong. It's about providing the "hardcore" perspective, the kind that is sick of seeing developers streamline and dumb down games.

and because you're 'hardcore', you can never be wrong? And also, I do realise that gaming has been dumbed-down lately. However, that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just making games more easily accessible for new-comers. What's wrong with that? And besides, it's not like there were that many 'true RPGs' in the first place. Heck, the very first RPG's were more dungeon crawlers than anything.

Your originality in insults is stunning. Can't people bust out some new material every once in while? This shit is booooring and totally 90's.

What? I never said I didn't like video-games from 90's. Nice straw-man there pal, but you're going to have to try a little harder I'm afraid.

Welcome to Earth

Excuse me? I was showing how incredibly and unrealistically pessimistic you people are. Now how you're so 'real' and 'down-to-earth'.

You're the one who wanted fair and unbiased, but now you complain that we treat all companies with the same scrutiny? Okay...

Alright, I take it back. I don't come to the codex because I expect a fair and unbiased opinion. I come here because, despite a lot of exaggeration and bias, the codex does provide a different perspective. though not necessarily an accurate one. And it can be fun to read at times too.

Well first off, if you actually read the article, Obsidian's boys themselves claimed that it was "a role-playing game first and foremost". I don't recall any mention by them of "action-RPG". And even so, Bloodlines was an action RPG and had some of the best dialogue trees out there, so that throws the "action RPGs don't need good dialogue" out the window there.

The idea of what defines an RPG has shifted rapidly over time, so just because they say it's 'a role-playing game first and foremost', doesn't necessarily mean it's your kind of role-playing game. Also, why does one action-RPG having a good dialogue tree render my previous statement invalid?

You could just actually read the stuff people have posted about it instead of asking this and seeming rather ignorant.

You didn't actually answer anything here and instead told me to 'just read the thread'. Well as a matter of fact, I have, and it mostly consists of people bashing the game for no good reason. I mean, you haven't even seen any dialogue in the game yet. How can you be making judgements like the ones above already? I for one am basing my current opinion of this game of Obsidian's record, which IMO, is quite good.

Or it's all bullshit and illusory choice and consequence a la KOTOR. Granted that is the extreme end of my pessimism, but it still seems like a bit of a flawed idea. It seems to me like they are making it impossible to "fail" in dialogue thus taking the gameplay aspect out of it and reducing it to "pick your flavor of cutscene".

And how exactly do you know it's 'all bullshit and illusory C&C a la KOTOR' eh? Way to prove the very point you were arguing against, genius.

Tell Obsidian that. Blade Runner the adventure game circa 199-something used this exact same dialogue system, and the third person shooter is nothing new either.

That was just an expression. I didn't actually mean games can't use mechanics from the 1990's, just that RPGs shouldn't stick to mechanics that are both outdated and unneeded. Just because a game doesn't use a 'pick-an-answer' style dialogue system doens't mean it's bad. In fact, I think you should be applauding Obsidian for saring to try something new in a market that ruthlessly punishes games that stray from the norm.

 

[denizsi]

I always tend to think of an aRPG as an RPG where the major emphasis is always on combat, regardless of how much player skill is involved, which would mean %90 percent of CRPGs out there are aRPGs. This definition sounds a lot better and correct to me, but considering the minority of non-action RPGs, it's really useless. So, it kind of makes more sense to define RPGs that incorporates a significant amount of player input as aRPGs. Political correctness FTW.

 

[amorax]

sorry you're like 4 threads late. the argument "if one game had shitty dialogues it means we need to change them to something else" grew old days ago.
I wonder how everyone who protects this retarded argument forgets how good choices were in PS:T - and sometimes they are reached like ~7 meaningful choices at a time - and forgets how shitty stance system was in ME and Fahrenheit which are inspirations for AP dialogues according to Obsidian.

also Bloodlines was an action rpg and it had more choices than bloody fallout sometimes

What, what, what? I never said that because NWN2 had crap dialogue it automatically means we should change to another system, though I do believe we should, just not specifically because of NWN2. Also, I never said I thought NWN2 had crap dialogue either. In fact, I quite enjoy the banter in NWN2, which, although it doesn't have much C&C, can be quite amusing and even witty at times.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

That was just an expression. I didn't actually mean games can't use mechanics from the 1990's, just that RPGs shouldn't stick to mechanics that are both outdated and unneeded. Just because a game doesn't use a 'pick-an-answer' style dialogue system doens't mean it's bad. In fact, I think you should be applauding Obsidian for saring to try something new in a market that ruthlessly punishes games that stray from the norm.

Real dialogue is now outdated and unneeded?

 

[mjorkerina]

If you liked the stereotypical banters of NWN2 OC there is no hope to save your ass from the demons of stupidity.

 

[Oarfish]

I think you should be applauding Obsidian for saring to try something new in a market that ruthlessly punishes games that stray from the norm

Like Jack Bauer in space without the space? Shit, I liked ME, but this hardly sounds ground breaking. At least its pretty much impossible for it to be as bad as NWN2 with its terrible basic gameplay and copypasta characters. MotB was partialy redeemed by its setting and plot, but it was still tedious to play.

 

[amorax]

it seems to be more about sexually frustrated 40 year-old men living in their mother's basements doing nothing but bitching about anything and everything.

Average codexer is twentysomething.

Alright, it's about sexually frustrated 20 year-old men living in their mother's basements doing nothing but bitching about anything and everything, then. That a better description?

That was just an expression. I didn't actually mean games can't use mechanics from the 1990's, just that RPGs shouldn't stick to mechanics that are both outdated and unneeded. Just because a game doesn't use a 'pick-an-answer' style dialogue system doens't mean it's bad. In fact, I think you should be applauding Obsidian for saring to try something new in a market that ruthlessly punishes games that stray from the norm.

Real dialogue is now outdated and unneeded?

No, the system with which dialogue used to be presented with is.

If you liked the stereotypical banters of NWN2 OC there is no hope to save your ass from the demons of stupidity.

I doubt you even played NWN2. And besides, I said I like SOME of the banter, not all of it. And just because a character is a stereotype doesn't mean you can't like him/her.

 

[amorax]

Double post.

 

[denizsi]

And also, I do realise that gaming has been dumbed-down lately. However, that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just making games more easily accessible for new-comers. What's wrong with that?

Answer below:

And besides, it's not like there were that many 'true RPGs' in the first place. Heck, the very first RPG's were more dungeon crawlers than anything.

Which they stilll are, thanks to dumbing down. If you don't care about having any more games similar to what people consider "classics", then there is nothing I can object to in that. Live happily ever after in a pool of mediocrity.

I didn't actually mean games can't use mechanics from the 1990's, just that RPGs shouldn't stick to mechanics that are both outdated and unneeded

Who decides what's outdated and unneeded now? What exactly is there in old RPGs that's outdated and unneeded today? Clarify.

Just because a game doesn't use a 'pick-an-answer' style dialogue system doens't mean it's bad. In fact, I think you should be applauding Obsidian for saring to try something new in a market that ruthlessly punishes games that stray from the norm.

Well, we certainly haven't seen how it works, but since the description is the only source we have, and since it sounds fucked up, it's only reason to expect that it will suck. If Obsidian wanted people to think differently, they'd ensure that.

No, the system with which dialogue used to be presented with is.

You're arguing that how people can make a judgement without seeing the real thing, but you seem to be preset about how great it's going to be. How the fuck can a dialogue system where you can't even see what your character will approximately say, be a sensible choice by any means?

And besides, I said I like SOME of the banter, not all of it.

Actually, you made a general expression:

"In fact, I quite enjoy the banter in NWN2, which, although it doesn't have much C&C, can be quite amusing and even witty at times.".

And just because a character is a stereotype doesn't mean you can't like him/her.

Holy fucking shit, he's literally defending dumbing down and having stereotypical characters! I mean, he's not even arguing or claiming that "it's not dumbing down! and they're deep characters!", he's simply happy with mediocrity. Fuck, that was a shock, and a new one. I think we should leave him alone now.

 

[mjorkerina]

I doubt you even played NWN2.

I doubt you are anything but an alt or a troll coming from the obsidian forums. I did, and painfully so, played NWN2. Everything in this game is a comedy : the tiefling rogue only thinks of thievery, the dwarf fighter only thinks of tavern brawls, the druid only thinks of motherfuck nature and everyone never sees further than their own noses.

The only decent companions are Sand and Ammon Jerro, the last of which you only get in the middle of the game. Both Sand and Ammon Jerro are capable of thinking a step or two ahead and are able to express well thoughts opinions. Their banters are pure gold. You can even gain influence with Sand by being polite while having a dialogue with the enemy, how awesome can it get ?

 

[amorax]

And also, I do realise that gaming has been dumbed-down lately. However, that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just making games more easily accessible for new-comers. What's wrong with that?

Answer below:

If you're not going to give a proper answer then don't answer.

And besides, it's not like there were that many 'true RPGs' in the first place. Heck, the very first RPG's were more dungeon crawlers than anything.

Which they stilll are, thanks to dumbing down. If you don't care about having any more games similar to what people consider "classics", then there is nothing I can object to in that. Live happily ever after in a pool of mediocrity.

Mediocrity? To the contrary, I actually think that games have improved a lot since the olden days. Sure there's a lot of conformism and repetition thanks to the 'casual gamers'. But I'm expecting that to pass away soon with the advent of some new fad that eats into the casual gamer demographic. Forcing game developers to cater to the slightly more hardcore types.

I didn't actually mean games can't use mechanics from the 1990's, just that RPGs shouldn't stick to mechanics that are both outdated and unneeded

Who decides what's outdated and unneeded now? What exactly is there in old RPGs that's outdated and unneeded today? Clarify.

the old system of 'pick an answer' is outdated and unneeded. We have things like the ME system now. Say whatever you like about the dialogue, but you cannot deny the way it was presented was both innovative and immersive.

Just because a game doesn't use a 'pick-an-answer' style dialogue system doens't mean it's bad. In fact, I think you should be applauding Obsidian for saring to try something new in a market that ruthlessly punishes games that stray from the norm.

Well, we certainly haven't seen how it works, but since the description is the only source we have, and since it sounds fucked up, it's only reason to expect that it will suck. If Obsidian wanted people to think differently, they'd ensure that.

Fucked up? That's a little bit extreme don't you think? Especially considering that you just admitted that the only example you have of the dialogue system is a description.

No, the system with which dialogue used to be presented with is.

You're arguing that how people can make a judgement without seeing the real thing, but you seem to be preset about how great it's going to be. How the fuck can a dialogue system where you can't even see what your character will approximately say, be a sensible choice by any means?

You don't necessarily have to see what your character says, just so long as you've got a pretty good idea of what he's going to do and how people will react to that.

And besides, I said I like SOME of the banter, not all of it.

Actually, you made a general expression:

"In fact, I quite enjoy the banter in NWN2, which, although it doesn't have much C&C, can be quite amusing and even witty at times.".

Do you even read what you type? I said CAN BE, not IS. There's a difference you know.

And just because a character is a stereotype doesn't mean you can't like him/her.

Holy fucking shit, he's literally defending dumbing down and having stereotypical characters! I mean, he's not even arguing or claiming that "it's not dumbing down! and they're deep characters!", he's simply happy with mediocrity. Fuck, that was a shock, and a new one. I think we should leave him alone now.

As you say I am not worthy to define what is outdated and unneeded, who are you to tell me what is mediocre?

 

[Kingston]

"innovative and immersive. "

Saying those two things in the same sentence should be auto-dumbfuck.

"You don't necessarily have to see what your character says, just so long as you've got a pretty good idea of what he's going to do and how people will react to that."

Heh yea, why even bother with dialogue lines. Smileys all the way!

PC:
NPC:
PC:
NPC:
PC:
NPC:
PC: :wink:

So anywho that was about inflitrating a drug cartel.

 

[denizsi]

Oh boy.. what a lost fucking cause.

:idea: :!: :wink: :arrow:

My feelings, exactly. Can we tag him now? Or as a wise man once said:

 

[amorax]

I doubt you even played NWN2.

I doubt you are anything but an alt or a troll coming from the obsidian forums. I did, and painfully so, played NWN2. Everything in this game is a comedy : the tiefling rogue only thinks of thievery, the dwarf fighter only thinks of tavern brawls, the druid only thinks of motherfuck nature and everyone never sees further than their own noses.

The only decent companions are Sand and Ammon Jerro, the last of which you only get in the middle of the game. Both Sand and Ammon Jerro are capable of thinking a step or two ahead and are able to express well thoughts opinions. Their banters are pure gold. You can even gain influence with Sand by being polite while having a dialogue with the enemy, how awesome can it get ?

It helps if you don't look at NWN2 as the next big thing, and instead as what it is:
A fairly typical, but quite (non-technically) polished, RPG experience. Now that we've got that out of the way, so what if some of the characters are stereotypes? The writing still manages to make them quite bearable.

"innovative and immersive. "

Saying those two things in the same sentence should be auto-dumbfuck.

So praising something is now worthy of a dumbfuck. How very codex.

"You don't necessarily have to see what your character says, just so long as you've got a pretty good idea of what he's going to do and how people will react to that."

Heh yea, why even bother with dialogue lines. Smileys all the way!

PC:
NPC:
PC:
NPC:
PC:
NPC:
PC: :wink:

So anywho that was about inflitrating a drug cartel.

This is just silly.

Oh boy.. what a lost fucking cause.

:idea: :!: :wink: :arrow:

My feelings, exactly. Can we tag him now? Or as a wise man once said:

You know, it helps your argument a lot if you actually try to respond rather than just throw petty insults my way.

 

[Arcks]

Well, no need to look further, melodrama really is the thing that powers the average codex dweller!

 

[Hory]

PC:
NPC:
PC:
NPC:
PC:
NPC:
PC: :wink:

So anywho that was about inflitrating a drug cartel.

You're kidding, right? It's obviously a story of unfulfilled infatuation. A spark of attraction that causes only mocking when acted on. Unreciprocated feelings and out-right contempt send the admirer in an emotional rollecoaster of hate and sorrow. The beautiful ones always have the last word, and at the end of the day, they're still happy. A touching exploration of the human condition, congratulations!

 

[mjorkerina]

Now that we've got that out of the way, so what if some of the characters are stereotypes?

Yeah you made it clear you don't care if something is shitty and bland.

 

[Hamster]

I think that by venturing down the "let's dumb it down" path Obsidian risks to repeat fate of Iron Lore. They lack the capability to create such marketing madness as Bioware or Beth and without this their games will fail just like TQ - increase of target auditory by dumbing down will be neutralised by rise in piracy due to increase of the share of 13-year kiddies in target auditory.

 

[amorax]

Now that we've got that out of the way, so what if some of the characters are stereotypes?

Yeah you made it clear you don't care if something is shitty and bland.

I like the way you ignored the other part of that post. Yes, it's kind of bland and fairly typical, but it's not mediocre.

 

[MetalCraze]

I doubt you even played NWN2.

I doubt you are anything but an alt or a troll coming from the obsidian forums. I did, and painfully so, played NWN2. Everything in this game is a comedy : the tiefling rogue only thinks of thievery, the dwarf fighter only thinks of tavern brawls, the druid only thinks of motherfuck nature and everyone never sees further than their own noses.

druid also can spread legs in the last act.

 

[denizsi]

You know, it helps your argument a lot if you actually try to respond rather than just throw petty insults my way.

:!: :

:arrow: :idea: :!:

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Now that we've got that out of the way, so what if some of the characters are stereotypes?

Yeah you made it clear you don't care if something is shitty and bland.

Yes, it's kind of bland and fairly typical, but it's not mediocre.

Your post is dumb and uninformed, but it doesn't suck.

 

[Mr Happy]

the old system of 'pick an answer' is outdated and unneeded. We have things like the ME system now. Say whatever you like about the dialogue, but you cannot deny the way it was presented was both innovative and immersive.

Huh, so what is so innovative about Mass Effect's dialogue again? I picked up a few months ago when I got a hold of a 360, and it was pretty much like "the old system of 'pick an answer'" except that the answers were arranged in a circle, and they were so abstracted that I would often end up saying something that I definitely didn't expect. The faces did look pretty good, I'll give the game that, but the dialogue system seemed like a pretty averaged model wrapped in a shiney interface with annoying summarizations. I don't get how it was "real time,” it's not like the conversation continued on with or without your input. When a better system for dialogue then “pick an answer” comes along, I’ll gladly applaud it, but I don’t see how it’s been outdated by a system that is pretty much the same thing. I’m not saying that there isn’t a lot that could be done to improve your average dialogue tree, but Mass Effect didn’t do any of that. Alpha Protocol’s (a slightly silly title) dialogue system seems to give you a good deal less choice then Mass Effect’s could have.

The “new wave of RPGs like fallout 3 with massive innovation” stuff is bullshit, of course, the genre seems like it has been and will continue to be pretty stagnant for a while, but Obsidian has got to sell a game somehow. What surprises me is the large number of people who defend these games as innovative, because I’m just not seeing it.

Anyway, the game sounds pretty mediocre to me. I'm all for underused settings, but christ, they sure managed to pick the dullest possible "spy" scenario they could. I guess if Obsidian needs these ultra-modern Hollywood super-spy deals to stay alive, that’s fine, but disappointing setting + gameplay like Mass Effect’s definitely won’t get me to buy it.

Obsidian is trying to make players think about possible repercussions instead of trite good/evil morality
They want mini-missions and how you solve them to tie in as much as possible with the whole of the operation. "We want to improve how the game reacts to your choices, how these consequences play out."

This stuff obviously sounds good (not really innovative, axoram), and rare enough these days to pique a little interest. But this is pretty much what was said about Mass Effect, and what is being said about Fallout 3, so with no examples, my pants are still on.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Huh, so what is so innovative about Mass Effect's dialogue again? I picked up a few months ago when I got a hold of a 360, and it was pretty much like "the old system of 'pick an answer'" except that the answers were arranged in a circle, and they were so abstracted that I would often end up saying something that I definitely didn't expect.

The one thing ME's dialogue did right was not having your character say shit like "I have some more questions for you." or "Back to my other questions." That alone made dialogue sound 10 times more natural.

This stuff obviously sounds good (not really innovative, axoram), and rare enough these days to pique a little interest. But this is pretty much what was said about Mass Effect, and what is being said about Fallout 3, so with no examples, my pants are still on.

Again, the guys working on this have a good track record. Why is everybody who points this out accused of cocksucking?