To Paradox Games, or not to Paradox Games?

[Phage]

Hello Codex, strategy game newfag here looking for advice.


I was wondering if I should delve into the world of EU3. I ask this because my experience with strategy games of any real depth is pretty much limited to Civ 4 and Alpha Centaurai. (Not counting RTS and jap turn based stuff).

A while back I attempted to get into HoI3, but I had no idea what was going on and I ended up spending most of my time trying to make the fucking flags work and to change germany's flag to the nazi flag. Basically, I failed to figure out how to do anything, and was further aggravated by the flags not working so I quit.

That was then, and this is now. Now I've seen the Codex's list of top strategy games, which introduced me to SMAC which was a blast to play. I now have my eyes on EU3, but I was curious if this game is as alien as HoI3. EU3 looks more interesting since it seems you can play peacefully/non peacefully as you choose (like in the Civ games), but is the interface any more user friendly?

If not, where could I go to learn how to EU3? Or am I simply too dumb for these games?

 

[Malakal]

Once you go Paradox you cant go back. All other games will seem popamole easy shit. And at the same time as finished bugless masterpieces. Oh the irony.

Best games I ever played came from Paradox.

 

[Phage]

Where would you recommend to start? EU3 seemed like it'd be a decent place since it's fairly new (UI may be kind of user friendly) and wasn't completely based on war like HoI.

 

[Sergiu64]

Once you go Paradox you cant go back. All other games will seem popamole easy shit. And at the same time as finished bugless masterpieces. Oh the irony.

Best games I ever played came from Paradox.

Qft. I tried to get into somewhat highly rated Shogun: Total War and it made me wanna puke due to being so different from Paradox games. I dunno how I was liking Total War series before...

EU3 is the best in my opinion... Victoria 2 is pretty decent, HoI games are quite good if you're ok with only focusing on war.

 

[ChristofferC]

You have to have some imagination or it's like playing Excel The Game.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

EU3 is the best starting place, it's by far the least complex of the games, but it gives you the basics of the UI and core mechanics all Paradox games use.

 

[torpid]

Once you go Paradox you cant go back. All other games will seem popamole easy shit. And at the same time as finished bugless masterpieces. Oh the irony.

Rather than irony, it's...

...a paradox.

Where would you recommend to start? EU3 seemed like it'd be a decent place since it's fairly new (UI may be kind of user friendly) and wasn't completely based on war like HoI.

Yeah, start with EU3. But make no mistake: though EU3 is in theory not completely based on war, war and conquest are still central to the game and the only fun I had was in the empire-building. Developing your economy consists of spamming workshops once you have enough gold; trade is simplistic and not particularly fun, and I was always weirded out when I would read LPs on the Paradox forums where the poster would explain that he was playing a trade-focused game, which basically meant he'd spend two centuries doing nothing but sending merchants to CoTs, over and over again, with a slider adjustment every few years. Colonization is pretty meh and suffers from the same repetitiveness as trade. The Magna Mundi supermod makes things more interesting but has its own issues.

So once you've played EU3 enough to understand the basics, graduate to HOI3. Since it focuses on war, the combat is much more developed than in EU3, where it's too simplistic and open to abuse.

 

[MetalCraze]

Proceed as follows:

EU3 DW -> Victoria 2 -> HoI3 and AoD

 

[torpid]

I've never played Victoria/Victoria 2. I've heard it's more of an economic game, but I'm wary about that label because, as I said in my previous post, I've read people claiming they were playing economy-focused EU3 games and it was boring. Is the economy in Victoria really more complex than in EU3 and do you spend more time managing your economy, as opposed to map-painting?

 

[Kane]

If not, where could I go to learn how to EU3? Or am I simply too dumb for these games?

http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=62257

Learning shouldn't be an issue, lots of stuff on YT, for example here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAP9obtQCHs

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Managing your own economy is a bit more complex (unless you have Laissez-Faire, then you will wish you had more control). Basically, there are factories you can build and upgrade in places that have sufficient populations of cratsmen. There are a large amount of factories, and you need to close them down/upgrade/subsidize them as necessary. Beyond that is also managing your pops, trying to encourage, both through your budget sliders and national focus points, the ideal mixture of pop types (soldiers, craftsmen, capitalists, farmers, slaves, etc.).

Also, if you thought rebel hunting was annoying in EU3, Vicky 2 will increase that annoyance ten-fold (GOD DAMN JACOBINS!). War is not as much of a focus, but you will be doing it. There are some faults with the base game (it's Paradox, afterall), mainly with mobilization size and soldier pops, also a bit with rebellions, but those are easily fixed yourself. In my short lived, currently on hiatus Confederacy LP, Vaarna and Cassidy posted some helpful tips on how to mod specific files. It's easy as shit and doesn't take longer than fifteen minutes to make the game a little more tolerable.

Anyway, I'd be damned if I could say which is my favorite Paradox game. They're like my children... I love them all equally, but for different reasons. There comes a point in all Paradox games where it just sort of "clicks". The mechanics take a bit of learning to figure out, but once you do, the game becomes quite simple. They simply are the best developer of strategy games out there, period. Screw the hater(s) (is there more than one?).

 

[Kane]

They're like my children... I love them all equally, but for different reasons.

I'd say they're more like children that pursued a career in crime...you don't know whether you should hate them or you for wasting your time on them but deep inside you still love them, somehow.

 

[Serious_Business]

I'd go with whatever historical setting interests you. No point in playing EU3 if you have no interest in the modern era, in my opinion. A lot of the fun of these games happens in your head. Not sure if that's called larping by the edging kids, but basically, the games in themselves are boring excel sheets and painted maps. If you don't put some heart into it, there's no point, so you better have some interest in the settings or you will get bored fast

 

[Sergiu64]

I'd go with whatever historical setting interests you. No point in playing EU3 if you have no interest in the modern era, in my opinion. A lot of the fun of these games happens in your head. Not sure if that's called larping by the edging kids, but basically, the games in themselves are boring excel sheets and painted maps. If you don't put some heart into it, there's no point, so you better have some interest in the settings or you will get bored fast

Well true to some extent, but my favorite era was the Classical Greek and Roman periods and I didn't really like their EU: Rome game.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Yeah, I don't exactly buy that. The games are abstractions, but it doesn't require larping or an extreme interest in the period to make it worthwhile. I despise WWII history as a subject, but HOI2 and 3 are fucking amazing games. Maybe I'm more :monocle: than you or something, but I like the games on their own merits. Seriously, if you like Grand Strategy, or Risk on steroids/super hero serum, then Paradox fits the bill.

 

[Grunker]

I'm playing EU3 ATM, and I'm a total newfag when it comes to a Paradox-game.

I have a very strange feeling about the game - one I've never had before. On the one hand, I'm enjoying the shit out its complexity, there's always something new to discover, and it is genuinely very engaging to play and attempt to control to the best of your ability the veritable HUGE amount of possibilities at your disposal.

On the other hand, the stuff you actually do in the game doesn't feel that rewarding. You move a slider, press a button, click OK and so on and so forth. Most of the stuff that feels genuinely interesting to do - adopting national ideas, changing government sliders (the effects of which are fairly dramatic) and preparing for war/fighting - happen rarely. This detracts from a game that has a pretty fucking awesome base.

So my initial expressions are mixed. It's not a "meh"-feeling, more of a "this game is fucking awesome and reallly bad"-feeling. So far. I'm still learning as I go.

 

[oscar]

I found EU3 + expansions more tricky to learn than Victoria 1 or Hearts of Iron 2.

 

[Destroid]

Wars might happen rarely, but you will spend the majority of your hours in wars - it requires much more attention and interaction to fight a war than manage a nation at peace.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Yeah, when you're not at war, bump the time to four or five ticks. When I'm at war I'm down to one or two, unless it's mop up, and then three. Most of the time is probably spent at war or thinking about war.

 

[zool]

I'd go with whatever historical setting interests you. No point in playing EU3 if you have no interest in the modern era, in my opinion. A lot of the fun of these games happens in your head. Not sure if that's called larping by the edging kids, but basically, the games in themselves are boring excel sheets and painted maps. If you don't put some heart into it, there's no point, so you better have some interest in the settings or you will get bored fast

QFT. I never managed to get into EU because I'm not a big fan of that time period, but I spent (and still spend) countless hours on Crusader Kings and Victoria. Used to play HoI too but I haven't had time to come back to it.

 

[kasmas]

If you are not familiar with the game do not install the latest expansion -divine wind- , horde mechanics and cascade alliances will rape you .
EU3 's major difficulty is jumping from a medium size country to an one province minor , if you start with France or Ming and RTFM you will have no problem learning the basics without having to restart every 10'.

 

[curry]

Bluntly, Paradox games are awesome. They are a bit difficult to learn and people with short attention span won't like them, but I've clocked hundreds if not thousands of hours playing them.

The best one to start with is of course Europa Universalis 3. It's somewhat easy to learn and pretty simple but it also has a great replay value. Their best game, in my opinion, is Crusader Kings. It combies RPG and strategy.

Hearts of Iron 3 and Victoria 2 are worse than their predecessors though, and I can't sincerely recommend them. Rome is garbage too.

Yeah, when you're not at war, bump the time to four or five ticks. When I'm at war I'm down to one or two, unless it's mop up, and then three. Most of the time is probably spent at war or thinking about war.

I always play at maximum speed, even when in war. I just hit pause whenever I feel like doing something.

 

[Erzherzog]

Yeah, when you're not at war, bump the time to four or five ticks. When I'm at war I'm down to one or two, unless it's mop up, and then three. Most of the time is probably spent at war or thinking about war.

I always play at maximum speed, even when in war. I just hit pause whenever I feel like doing something.

That's what I used to do before I played multiplayer, then I discovered how much of a difference it makes.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Both HoI3 and Vicky2 improve on all aspects of their predecessors, and the far more accessible and flexible Clausewitz engine they use seals the deal.

I'd describe Vicky2 as a nation-building game, as economics and domestic politics are the two most prominent issues you'll be dealing with.

 

[curry]

Both HoI3 and Vicky2 improve on all aspects of their predecessors,

0/10 troll attempt failed..


HoI3 and V2 run so much slower than their predecessors that they are nearly unplayable, and they are plagued by bugs and idiotic AI.

But then again, all Paradox games are unplayable upon release.