The art of reading between the lines - a FO3 thread

[psycojester]

I can see it now. Liam Neeson left the vault with you when you were only a baby. He raised you out in the wastes totally unawares of your vault dwelling territige. And now a terrible evil threatens your ancestral vault and it is your destiny (as TeH CHOSUN WUN!) to stand up and defend yourmpeople.

 

[z3r'0']

I think Vaultdweller mostly hit it on the nail there. Admittedly its speculation - but he has rarely been proven wrong before.

Fear the Hype! Suckers!

Imho. Fallout = TB + ISO + SPECIAL. ANYTHING else ...
Is. Not. Fucking. Fallout.

The onus lies on Bethesda to prove all us naysayers wrong.
And until they do. LOL, yeah right.
I reserve the right to call them on their bullshit.

 

[Top Hat]

to stand up and defend yourmpeople.

Your M People

Fight for their Freedom
Coming Soon...

Slightly more seriously, the only discomfort I have with Vault Dweller's argument is sticking the blame on the short text on the fact that the voice over is being done by a famous actor/media lure, rather than on the fact that (it is likely) all dialogue will be voiced.

Data compression schemes give a fuck about people being famous. It's not the fact that there's a famous guy voicing some of the dialogue, it's that there are a bunch of people voicing all of the dialogue.

Wait... Vault Dweller's explaining how to read between the lines? What happened to "not scaling to your level"?

 

[Spazmo]

The argument that having some celebrity voice talent won't "ruin" game dialog because Fallout had Ron Perlman, Richard Dean Anderson et al. is flawed because while Fallout did, of course, have these "name" actors, it also had a far greater number of unvoiced NPCs. If you go and read the Fallout Bibles MCA did oh these many years ago, he mentions several times how the talking head NPCs usually had silent assistants who would handle the menial details of a quest--the where, what and rewards. This was necessary because once a character's dialog is recorded, it's not going to change; nobody's going back into the studio because such a quest reward was found to unbalance the midgame. That's the real problem with all voiced dialog.

Otherwise, there's nothing inherently wrong with it, as Vampire: Bloodlines proved--although even that game would occasionally some loopholes to get around this, with specific information on quests frequently appearing in the text only journal or emails from various NPCs.

 

[merry andrew]

You play a robot/android/mutant/hooker/assassin. Your 'father' 'created' you and is featured prominently throughout the game setting the dramatic tone through the memories you uncover as you make your way through the game.

 

[Sir_Brennus]

This will restrict your ability to fantasize a history for yourself

Argh! You are joking, right? Tell me you are joking, please, please with sugar on top?

If not: Don't talk or write about your LARPing in public. It embarresses you and makes people like me anxious.

 

[Bluebottle]

The argument that having some celebrity voice talent won't "ruin" game dialog because Fallout had Ron Perlman, Richard Dean Anderson et al. is flawed because while Fallout did, of course, have these "name" actors, it also had a far greater number of unvoiced NPCs. I

It's also flawed because Fallout's dialogue wasn't written by idiots. It could be voiced by Robert De Niro, the entire Royal Shakespeare Company and a resurrected Laurence Olivier and it would still be eye wateringly cringeworthy.

 

[filogreek]

I agree with the idea that Bethesda probably didn't try to record Neeson saying different dialog responses, based on say, intelligence, for the main plot. A dumb 'discussion' with the Overseer for example in Fallout 1, had some fun times there, and he was even a main character... Probably won't see dumb dialog in Fallout 3 (well that would depend on your interpretation of that statement ).

 

[Naked Ninja]

Oh shit. Dammit, I tried to be fair, tried to give Beth the benefit of the doubt. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with using Liam Neeson, per se, but Section8 has a point :

"Having a father that features "prominently throughout" the game is a pretty clear indication that Bethesda are doing away with Fallout's solitude, blank slate RPGing and focus on player authored narrative "

I'm getting tired of playing a character barely out of puberty in RPGs. While I suppose it's possible in F3 that your character is an adult with a life of his own, that your father is a crotechety, miserable bastard who gets on your nerves when he isn't dead drunk, its almost certainly going to be a benevolent guiding figure who shows you the ropes and tells you what to do next blah blah.


And more than that, having this as one of the first things they announce to the fans indicates, as mentioned, a general mindset. The same mindset they had with Oblivion. They're focusing on the wrong things.

Dammit Bethesda, I tried to take a reasonable and balanced viewpoint, to not jump on the mockery bandwagon, but you're not helping the cause here.

 

[Punck_D]

Okay, I accepted Bethesda's incompetence to bring the good old retro-50s-sci-fi-feeling into their vision of a Fallout 3. Bethesda: Fallout=Teh Postapocalyptic!!1, nothing more. But hyping their Fallout 3 with Liam Neeson in a prominetly role makes me sick. First i thought about it like Sander, but Beth's inability to create a decent CRPG with choices & consequences makes me think of pure linearity for Fallout 3, hidden behind an "epic" tale, the mass loving sandbox and Liam Neeson. Smells like Fallout is turning into an action-adventure...oh boy, who would have thought that!?

 

[Micmu]

Stop calling bethesda games action-adventures. It's a slap in a face to adventure games. They don't come with builtin walkthroughs and checkpoint quests.

 

[taxacaria]

But hyping their Fallout 3 with Liam Neeson in a prominetly role makes me sick.

Agreed.
That reminds me of Oblivion and Patrick Stewart - same type of pointless hype.
Liam Neeson isn't bad (I'd prefer Ron Perlman) as a voice actor, but the idea to write an extra role for him is ill-adviced. Fallout 3 with special appearance of Liam Neeson as the player's father, who guide you prominently through the entire game is a dubious concept. Liam Neeson as the new Caius Cosades? *shudder*
Next is, that the idea of a father implies an unripe main char, who needs guidance and admonition - a teenie game concept. Furthermore it indicates unwished linearity - the father as a continuing questgiver is level game design "Well done, my son. Take this Mauser of your grandfather's father as a reward. And here, my son, is your next task...".

 

[elander_]

Stop calling bethesda games action-adventures. It's a slap in a face to adventure games. They don't come with builtin walkthroughs and checkpoint quests.

The adventure word is not exclusive. It's also used in PnPs to describe a single adventure or a series of adventures made for a specific character.

In this sense i would say that Oblivion games provide a couple of very constrained adventures which you can only play with a fighter. There's one adventure the Thief guild story that let's you do it as a thief but that's only half a douzen of quests and that's it.

Besides the quests themselves are very generic and don't help you feel you are truly a scoundrel and marginal to society, a wizard and scholar with unique powers or a warrior/noble who looks for fame and acknowledgment while serving the kingdom.

I also have an hard time calling generic Oblivion an adventure in PnP terms because adventures make an effort to fit the characters they were created for role-playing and there's always some care for reactions and respect for stats.

 

[aries202]

The point is that adventure games is a special sort of games; it is whole different genre than RPG games usually is. You don't get any exp. for closing quests or doing action things, there are no stats, abilities etc. in adventure games like there are in RPG games. And the adventure games seem to be the telling of rather linear stories where your reward for solving yet another puzzle is to get further along in the story.

 

[Callaxes]

Has I understand it, Adventure games represent 50% of what RPGs are, because RPGs are the combination between "Choose you own Adventure" games and Table-Top strategies.

 

[cutterjohn]

Well, it aint F1 and we are not going to party like it's 1995 again. On top of that it's Bethesda, so you can be rest assured that it's a full voice-over PC/console game with nice, large font, simple words, and little text for the functionally illiterated.

fixed

(fucking typo)

 

[Vault Dweller]

I exchanged emails with one of Beth developers. When I asked a question about Liam's prominent role that was "written with Liam in mind", he sent me a link to a generic "Liam+Fallout=Awesome!" article starting with this paragraph:

"He was Obi-Wan Kenobi's mentor, he was Batman's mentor, and he was Orlando Bloom's mentor and father in "Kingdom of Heaven," and now he'll be your father in Fallout 3, coming from Bethesda Softworks. Liam Neeson will play the role of the player's father and will appear prominently throughout the game."

 

[merry andrew]

That's great news first thing in the morning

 

[Micmu]

What fascinates me about these hacks is how they treat everyone like complete and utter retards. I mean, couldn't he just tell you "sorry no info yet"?
Why don't you reply to him and say you didn't ask where the fucking Neeson played.
Obviously, they're targeting 12 years old ADD kids again.

Anyone who *still* thinks this might be a Fallout sequel (in other than name only) needs to be shot, now.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What fascinates me about these hacks is how they treat everyone like complete and utter retards. I mean, couldn't he just tell you "sorry no info yet"?

I think he was very specific at pointing the roles that were used to define Liam's FO3 character. See Section8's post for more details:

"No, no, no! You've got it all wrong. This isn't necessarily about the choice of actor. It's more about what a part written specifically for Liam Neeson and having that role extend throughout the game implies. I'll break it down for you.

Some Bethesda whore writer has seen a bunch of Liam Neeson movies, and has a vision of the sort of characters he most commonly plays. They have then applied their considerably inferior screen-writing skills to the task, and shoehorned a Neeson stereotype into the game. Not only is that derivative, but it also means that we're going to be spoon-fed a "main plot", involving the PC and his father. You can bet your fucking life that the antagonist in the game will eventually kill your father, and leave you wanting revenge."

 

[franc kaos]

Slightly more seriously, the only discomfort I have with Vault Dweller's argument is sticking the blame on the short text on the fact that the voice over is being done by a famous actor/media lure, rather than on the fact that (it is likely) all dialogue will be voiced.

Data compression schemes give a fuck about people being famous. It's not the fact that there's a famous guy voicing some of the dialogue, it's that there are a bunch of people voicing all of the dialogue.

I can't find the link, but originally one of the dev interviews stated Oblivion would be coming out on 9GB DVDs, half voice, half game. It didn't, it was released on 4.5 GB DVDs, so compression/disk space isn't the problem. Target audience is the problem. (oh yea, and paying for a couple of big names then using 3 or 4 no names to voice everyone else in the game).

 

[aries202]

I understand what you're trying to say when you say 'adhd kids'. I just thought you should know that ADHD is a mental illness or disease that is very severe for the kids and adults who actually has this disease (or illness).

It would be more correct, I think, to say, that it looks like Bethesda again are going after casual gamers who don't have that much time they can spent on playing videogames.

However, if that's your position, I think I'll have to disagree (somewhat) with you. I haven't (yet) seen any evidence on this, nor have I seen any evidence that Liam Neeson is Voice Acting a character like the one he's played in Star Wars 1-3.

Also, Liam Neeson has played Michael Collins in 'michael collins', a very political story about the Irish and their quest for political and religous freedom for the English.

However, Vault Dweller's comment in the email makes me a little worried. The main plot (with Liam Neeson) seems to be directly inspired (some will stolen) from Bioware's Baldur's Gate 1 in which your father figure (gorion) was killed, and you were left to discover your trye heritage. If the main plot in FO 3 turns out to be this way, I'm going to personally write to Bioware (i.e. David Gaider), because I don't think it can be legal or ripp-off another companys IP? (but only when & if it turns ouit this way...)

On a more general note what it is with Bethesda and Father Figures ? I mean, they have killed off the Emperor in Oblivion. And they will probably kill of the player's Father in Fallout 3 ? There really need to be a psychological (or some other) reason to have a prominent Father figure in Fallout 3.

If Liam Neeson is just there to give your quests and diorections to complete said quests or something like that, well then, I'll, for one, will be very disappointed . I will be happy, hough, sort of, if the main plot involves a plot twist of some sorts, involving your Father (Liam Neeson)...

On a more general note, my take on Fallout is that you, the player, together with your player's character (pc), are cast of of Paradise (the vault), and need to fend for yourself in the wastelands, whether they be urban or rural. And then, through that journey, by doing the main quest in the game, the pc is formed psychologically, as an individual in his own rights. An individual that is psychologically different from the make-up of his Father, and thus has learned how to make a way for himself in the world.

As for Bethesda writing the part for Liam, I think it went this way. Bethesda thought it would be cool to include a Father figure in Fallout 3, then looked around, and saw that Liam had played either Mentors or Father figures in the movies. And they contacted Neeson's agent, I guess...

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Nothing says 50's Americana like an Irish fookin' accent

 

[Section8]

I understand what you're trying to say when you say 'adhd kids'. I just thought you should know that ADHD is a mental illness or disease that is very severe for the kids and adults who actually has this disease (or illness).

Interestingly enough, it's massively misdiagnosed in western society because parent's don't want to accept the responsibility of conditioning their children not to be ill-mannered, selfish little shits. I can't help but think the challenge-free rewards that too many games provide help to reinforce this sort of behaviour.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

I understand what you're trying to say when you say 'adhd kids'. I just thought you should know that ADHD is a mental illness or disease that is very severe for the kids and adults who actually has this disease (or illness).

Interestingly enough, it's massively misdiagnosed in western society because parent's don't want to accept the responsibility of conditioning their children not to be ill-mannered, selfish little shits. I can't help but think the challenge-free rewards that too many games provide help to reinforce this sort of behaviour.

Also Chocolatemilk, the great evil of the 21st century