The art of reading between the lines - a FO3 thread

[Sander]

I know that I played the games for quite long and the only time when I needed those oh so prominently featured characters was in the beginning. If they were *really* prominently featured characters, I would already have had to meet them again, no?

The simple fact that you can go back at any time for advice doesn't mean they are featured throughout the game. Most of the time you will have nothing to do with them.

I'm sorry, did you fail to read the part where I said that Hakunin featured prominently in the second game *always*? Or the part where I explained how the Overseer has the most voiced dialogue of all characters in Fallout?

 

[Elwro]

When I read about Neeson and his "prominent role" blahblah, I immediately thought that haunting the player Hakunin-style was probable. It's the easiest thing to do, and Bethesda do not seem to like any challenges whatsoever in terms of story design. And I guess "Please hurry" is enough dramatic overtone for them, too. Remember that invasion on Cyrodiil which never moved an inch?

The vibe I get is that once more "normal" NPCs will get shitty voice acting by 2 actors per race, because what's important is to have one or two semi-famous names on the cast and you're set for a slam dunk. The problem is that during 95% of the game you listen to those "regular" NPCs, and not to the starz.

 

[Vault Dweller]

@VD
This interpretation isn't anything more wishful thinking as yours is paranoid thinking.

Tell me, Sir_Brennus, how accurate was my "paranoid thinking" in regard to Oblivion?

The fact that Sander and me felt that the Overseer was a father figure, albeit a harsh one, should allow another interpretation as yours.

Please, stop acting stupid. Posts like "another poster agreed with me, so I must be right" are really, really retarded. I'm sure you can do better explaining your arguments than referring to other people's positions.

As for Sander, it's not the first time we are arguing about FO3. He's a Fallout fan and he is having a very hard time accepting that Bethesda's Fallout 3 will not be even a Fallout-like game.

 

[Shoelip]

IIRC

3 unique voices, Boromir, Picard, and Zod.

Linda Carter did the female orcs and nords
1 person did all the female elves
1 person did the female Bretons and Imperials
1 person did the female Redguards (becasue you know, redguards have to sound like african americans)
1 person did the female Argonians and Khajiit
1 person did the male orcs and nords
1 person did all the male elves
1 person did the male imperials
1 person did the male bretons
1 person did the male redguards
1 person did the male Argonians and Khajiit

So that's thirteen, I just checked IMDb and the numbers match with that.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0462271/fullcredits#cast

Oh wait, I'm bad at counting, you figure it out.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

When I read about Neeson and his "prominent role" blahblah, I immediately thought that haunting the player Hakunin-style was probable. It's the easiest thing to do, and Bethesda do not seem to like any challenges whatsoever in terms of story design. And I guess "Please hurry" is enough dramatic overtone for them, too. Remember that invasion on Cyrodiil which never moved an inch?

The vibe I get is that once more "normal" NPCs will get shitty voice acting by 2 actors per race, because what's important is to have one or two semi-famous names on the cast and you're set for a slam dunk. The problem is that during 95% of the game you listen to those "regular" NPCs, and not to the starz.

I agree with you Elwro, just one thing. I wouldnt call Neeson semi-famous, he had surely better roles than Picard or Boromir and is actually pretty known, I'm surprised you never heard of him before.

But thats just a sidenote.

 

[Sir_Brennus]

@VD
This interpretation isn't anything more wishful thinking as yours is paranoid thinking.

Tell me, Sir_Brennus, how accurate was my "paranoid thinking" in regard to Oblivion?

The fact that Sander and me felt that the Overseer was a father figure, albeit a harsh one, should allow another interpretation as yours.

Please, stop acting stupid. Posts like "another poster agreed with me, so I must be right" are really, really retarded. I'm sure you can do better explaining your arguments than referring to other people's positions.

As for Sander, it's not the first time we are arguing about FO3. He's a Fallout fan and he is having a very hard time accepting that Bethesda's Fallout 3 will not be even a Fallout-like game.

I don't think that being right once makes you the motherfucking all-seeing-eye. Also, I still believe that FO3 will be crappy, but the reasoning behind your interpretation must be considered at least streched or biased.

The other insult I try to ignore. I never stated that I am right because I had the same idea as sander, but I only argued that there exists a different and supported interpretation of the "important / prominent / father / father figure NPC".

VD: Disallowing different views on an interpretation of arbitrary facts is called narrowing your horizon. It is very much possible that you're right, but it is not guranteed.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Have I claimed that only teenagers have fathers? My point was that it's very unlikely that your father will be older than 40-45 years old. They said that the role was written for Liam's. What kinda role do you think it is? An old goat sitting in a cave or a mentor- warrior in his prime? Take a guess.

He only voices him...

*sigh* What part of "this role was written with Liam in mind" you don't understand?

Once you left the vault/village you were on your own, without prominently appearing father providing some drama, no? So, what help did the Overseer/Elder provide *throughout* your quest? I must have missed that part.

See my reply to Jarlfrank.

I saw a failed attempt to convince everyone that the Overseer/Shaman/Elder featured prominently in the first two games. Would you like to add anything else? Or to actually answer the question above?

The wishful thinking is strong in this one. I hope you agree that "father, appearing prominently throughout the game and providing the dramatic tone for the entire game" is a little bit different than a generic "you have a father" background.

Nope. That depends entirely on how they implement it.

I shall leave you to your illusions, Sander.

Again: see Uriel Septim. He was said to play a prominent role in the game...

No.
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9762

 

[Sander]

As for Sander, it's not the first time we are arguing about FO3. He's a Fallout fan and he is having a very hard time accepting that Bethesda's Fallout 3 will not be even a Fallout-like game.

Your reply to my arguments is to marginalise me?
Neat, but not any form of valid argumentation.

I'm sorry if you failed to read the part where I said that I expected them to muck it up. All I'm having a hard time with is false arguments. There are loads of reasons to criticise Bethesda, this just isn't one of them (yet).

*sigh* What part of "this role was written with Liam in mind" you don't understand?

Parts are almost never written for a certain actor. That's just typical hype-speech (and a very common figure of speech).

I saw a failed attempt to convince everyone that the Overseer/Shaman/Elder featured prominently in the first two games. Would you like to add anything else? Or to actually answer the question above?

I saw valid arguments as to why both the Overseer and Hakunin featured prominently in the first two games. Care to actually reply to the arguments instead of blurting 'you're wrong'?

No.
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9762

Ah. Well, good point then.

 

[Elwro]

I wouldnt call Neeson semi-famous, he had surely better roles than Picard or Boromir and is actually pretty known.

OK, I didn't know that. Well, I'm not much into movies. Any good films with him you'd recommend? :D

 

[Sander]

I wouldnt call Neeson semi-famous, he had surely better roles than Picard or Boromir and is actually pretty known.

OK, I didn't know that. Well, I'm not much into movies. Any good films with him you'd recommend? :D

Rob Roy, Schindler's List.

 

[Imbecile]

I'd just like to add that I think that theres even more information hidden within this brief media snippet.

Neeson will play the role of the player’s father and will appear prominently throughout the game. ... This role was written with Liam in mind, and provides the dramatic tone for the entire game.

1. Now everyone knows that Liam Neeson was born in 1952. In fact this is 12 years later than Patrick Stewart, Oblivions "star" actor. This shows a glaring lack of imagination, after all both actors have appeared in the Simpsons. On top of that, it is clear that the sequential nature of their birthdays mirrors Bethesdas intent on mindless sequels and the linearity of their gameplay.

2. Bethesda attempt marketing subtlety by stating that "Neeson will play the role of the father". This looks like a fairly crude attempt to make us believe that Fallout 3 will be a role playing game - in fact they even repeat the word role twice (strike two for lack of imagination!). Its evident that they wouldn't try so hard to make us believe this if they had nothing to hide.

3. Everybody remembers the deserted towns that plagued Oblivion. It seems likely that having Neeson "appear prominently throughout the game" is just an excuse to cut back on the number or original NPCs. Prominently is a relative term. If there are low numbers of characters and dialogue, then of course any character in the game will feature prominently. Not to mention that they'll have blown their voice acting budget on Neeson, so wont actually be able to afford any other voice actors. Fallout 3 is, on this evidence, likely to contain your father and three deaf mutes.

4. Your father sets the dramatic tone? Am i the only one seeing this in a musical context?
W'eve heard the overly dramatic music on the teaser siter - what we haven't realized is that your father is the one playing the music. The underlying message is that he plays the tune, and your character must dance to it. On top of the implied linearity, there is worse to come. Despite the success of Parappa the Rapper on the consoles there has never been a significant follow up. Bethesda have seen the opportunity to kill two birds with one stone and cash in on both of these franchises at the same time. Yes.
Fallout: The Musical.
To quote Parappa (Choices, Consequences its all in the mind!)

5. The last hidden point I could see was, admittedly, an obscure one

Neeson is an anagram of Sonnee. In this case clearly Sonnee Cohen, who created a long lasting Hockey Puck
Puck was a character from A Midsummers night dream. He gives Bottom a Donkeys Head.
Donkeys originated from Wild Asses. Tying this together with Bottom from the previous link we have fairly concrete evidence of the nature of Fallout 3.

Case rests, y'r Honour.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't think that being right once makes you the motherfucking all-seeing-eye.

It doesn't, of course. However, it does add some credibility to my points.

The other insult I try to ignore. I never stated that I am right because I had the same idea as sander, but I only argued that there exists a different and supported interpretation of the "important / prominent / father / father figure NPC".

Supported?

VD: Disallowing different views on an interpretation of arbitrary facts is called narrowing your horizon. It is very much possible that you're right, but it is not guranteed.

Disallowing? Did I delete your post and threaten to ban you? I'm arguing with you and Sander, trying to see what your positions are based on. Overseer was NOT a fatherly figure. He was the guy who sent you on a quest and kicked you out in the end. He cared nothing about your character and he never offered you any help or fatherly advice. He did have a fair amount of recorded dialogue, but his role was neither prominent nor dramatic. You could see him as little as once in the entire game. Need I say more?

 

[Elwro]

KTHX. I've seen Schindler's List, but not Rob Roy, I'll check it out sometime.

 

[Kingston]

Rob Roy is pretty good.

 

[Shoelip]

Overseer was NOT a fatherly figure. He was the guy who sent you on a quest and kicked you out in the end. He cared nothing about your character and he never offered you any help or fatherly advice. He did have a fair amount of recorded dialogue, but his role was neither prominent nor dramatic. You could see him as little as once in the entire game. Need I say more?

Actually, the Overseer constantly sounds like he feels really crappy for making you do all these things and constantly apologises for it. So I wouldn't say he cared nothing for the character.

 

[mister lamat]

yea, i'm sick of everyone on the planet being stereotyped into the role of being someone's kid. i wish they could have broken away from such a cliche!

i mean, the entire concept of family has never, ever, ever appeared in the fallout series prior to this, ever! it has no fucking place whatsoever!!!! it's totally harshing my vibe.

i'm in full support of vault dwellers insistence that we should be free to larp our characters background! it's what the fallout series is all about and always should be.

 

[dagorkan]

The Overseer doesn't have that much dialog. If I remember rightly you meet him only three times. The intro, he tells you to get the water chip, then you can't speak to him any more until you have returned it. Second he tells you to go get the mutants. You can speak to him but he has nothing new to add. Final meeting is the very end of the game and your only possible interaction is to shoot him in the back.

So on the whole you probably have fifteen or twenty lines of dialog. I am pretty sure there were 'talking heads' with more than that, and there were definitely were more prominent NPCs.

 

[Section8]

I also gave Section8 a fine taste of his own cock by quoting him and tried to argue, that you could say things like these about hiring Michael Dorn as a NPC with-a-twist named Marcus, which not only resembles Worf physically, but also in psyche.

Well I may not have said it directly, but I also think Marcus was a bad idea. For starters, I hate the whole "we used to be enemies, but now we team up to fight the bigger evil" horsehit cliche. Secondly, I think writing scripts for a specific actor is idiotic, because it's mindless rehashing, and borders on parody. Thirdly, an awful lot of Fallout 2 was tainted by the lack of vision and lack of restraint. It's full of embarassingly obvious spoofs that were dated by the time the game hit the shelves. Hurr, hurr. Scientologist so dumb. Hurr.

Fallout 2 had a fucking awful setting and gameworld. It was like a Fallout theme park aimed at pre-teens. The only thing that saved the game was the fact that it maintained Fallout's excellent game systems, and open-ended questing.

 

[Shoelip]

The Overseer doesn't have that much dialog. If I remember rightly you meet him only three times. The intro, he tells you to get the water chip, then you can't speak to him any more until you have returned it. Second he tells you to go get the mutants. You can speak to him but he has nothing new to add. Final meeting is the very end of the game and your only possible interaction is to shoot him in the back.

So on the whole you probably have fifteen or twenty lines of dialog. I am pretty sure there were 'talking heads' with more than that, and there were definitely were more prominent NPCs.

What? You can really shoot him in the back? What happens then?

 

[mister lamat]

uh... he dies. you then leave the barn, like in every other ending.

 

[dagorkan]

Yeah exactly. Basically you have the freedom to LARP it, enter combat mode just as he finishes talking and you can get a couple of shots off. I think if you're a berzerker you get a dialog option to kill him.

 

[Vault Dweller]

As for Sander, it's not the first time we are arguing about FO3. He's a Fallout fan and he is having a very hard time accepting that Bethesda's Fallout 3 will not be even a Fallout-like game.

Your reply to my arguments is to marginalise me?
Neat, but not any form of valid argumentation.

It wasn't a reply to you, was it? Besides, you are a Fallout fan, aren't you? Tell me that you don't even hope for a good Fallout game from Bethesda, and I'll take what I said back.

I'm sorry if you failed to read the part where I said that I expected them to muck it up. All I'm having a hard time with is false arguments. There are loads of reasons to criticise Bethesda, this just isn't one of them (yet).

I didn't fail to read that part. However, since we were dealing with my false arguments, your or my expectations are irrelevant.

*sigh* What part of "this role was written with Liam in mind" you don't understand?

Parts are almost never written for a certain actor. That's just typical hype-speech (and a very common figure of speech).

So, we shall pretend that Bethesda didn't really mean it and that there is a perfectly good and logical explanation for that comment? Yeah, that makes sense. I'm sure that "prominent" and "dramatic" are some common hype words too, and in reality the father's role will be similar to the Overseer's role in Fallout. The hope is back once again.

Btw, you may want to look at the Oblivion "voice-over" press-release and try to find that common "this role was written for ..." hype-speech.

I saw a failed attempt to convince everyone that the Overseer/Shaman/Elder featured prominently in the first two games. Would you like to add anything else? Or to actually answer the question above?

I saw valid arguments as to why both the Overseer and Hakunin featured prominently in the first two games. Care to actually reply to the arguments instead of blurting 'you're wrong'?

In a second, but please don't forget to explain how the Overseer and the Shaman helped you "throughout the game" as you claimed.

And the end and beginning of the game, and [the Overseer] functioned as an explicit help-point in the game. He was easily the voiced character with the most dialogue in the entire game, and I suspect he has the most dialogue of anyone in the game.

In the beginning he tells you that the vault needs a water chip and walks you to the door. In the middle of the game - only if you come back to the vault - he asks you to deal with the mutants, which you can figure out without him. In the end, you give him the chip/report and he again walks you to the door and sometimes dies violently. Basically, he gives you a quest in the beginning of the game and then tells you that the game is over in the end. You call that "featured prominently"? No, seriously?

Then there was the Shaman, who featured much more prominently. He featured in the beginning as a small quest/help-point, he featured throughout the game as 'get on with it'-guy in the dreams, and he featured as the man who told you what happened at your village when you get the GECK.

Except for the retarded dream that was annoying and just wrong on so many levels, how giving you a simple "kill two plants in my garden" quest and telling you that everyone's dead makes him a prominent character? If that's the case Oblivion was loaded with prominent characters of all shapes and sizes.

 

[mister lamat]

keep your lame 'i wanna larp my character!' faggotry out of the fallout threads.

 

[Spectacle]

I am afraid that after the relase of Fallout 3, Vault Dveller's interpretations will have been proven at least 95% correct

 

[Sander]

It wasn't a reply to you, was it? Besides, you are a Fallout fan, aren't you? Tell me that you don't even hope for a good Fallout game from Bethesda, and I'll take what I said back.

I like how you twist your words. The point is that you claimed that I had a hard time facing that Bethesda may muck it up, which is a clear marginalisation of me as someone who's not looking at the facts.
Of course I hope for a good game. So do you. So does anyone who's played the Fallout games and liked them. There's a big difference between hope and logical expectation.

I didn't fail to read that part. However, since we were dealing with my false arguments, your or my expectations are irrelevant.

Yet *you* were the one who pushed them to the foregrond by trying to marginalise me.

So, we shall pretend that Bethesda didn't really mean it and that there is a perfectly good and logical explanation for that comment? Yeah, that makes sense. I'm sure that "prominent" and "dramatic" are some common hype words too, and in reality the father's role will be similar to the Overseer's role in Fallout. The hope is back once again.

Btw, you may want to look at the Oblivion "voice-over" press-release and try to find that common "this role was written for ..." hype-speech.

Oh give me a break, Vault Dweller. That sentence is overused as shit, especially in the Hollywood world. There are very, very few cases when this is actually the case, usually it's a way of saying 'Hey, this guy fits this role really well.'

And as I said, I expect them to do that. But my expectations are not the same as a valid factual derivation from the statement itself.

In a second, but please don't forget to explain how the Overseer and the Shaman helped you "throughout the game" as you claimed.

I've already explained that. The Overseer featured as an *explicit* helper. It is actually noted in the manual that if you ever get stuck, you should go to the Overseer.

Hakunin featured mostly to urge you on.

In the beginning he tells you that the vault needs a water chip and walks you to the door. In the middle of the game - only if you come back to the vault - he asks you to deal with the mutants, which you can figure out without him. In the end, you give him the chip/report and he again walks you to the door and sometimes dies violently. Basically, he gives you a quest in the beginning of the game and then tells you that the game is over in the end. You call that "featured prominently"? No, seriously?

Yes. As I said, and please try to actually counter this, he has the most voiced dialogue of any character in the game. He sends you out on your quest (setting the dramatic tone), he features as a father-like figure whenever you return to him (except at the very end), providing you with advice. And he features as the culmination of the game. He's more prominent than *any* other voiced character in the game, and really only the Master has a greater importance to the story.

Except for the retarded dream that was annoying and just wrong on so many levels, how giving you a simple "kill two plants in my garden" quest and telling you that everyone's dead makes him a prominent character? If that's the case Oblivion was loaded with prominent characters of all shapes and sizes.

Yes, this is prominent. You almost always came across him in the beginning, you always saw him at the 'OMG your village is dead' point, and he was the driving force behind the player, providing the 'dramatic tone'.
Note that I agree that that was annoying as fuck and the dreams were silly as shit, but there's no denying that he did feature prominently.