So Dragon Age: Origins is rather fun so far

[TemplarLord]

What the hell are 'fantastic creatures'?

In essence, David Gaider look-alikes.

 

[Carrion]

The game is a huge time sink, at least if you want to complete all the "find x pieces of junk" side quests that require searching every room and container in the game world. 80 hours doesn't sound unrealistic if you've got even a little bit of a completionist in you.

The funny thing is that DA:O has exactly as much actual content as Mass Effect, which was a 30-hour game at most. The plot is exactly the same, the amount and size of the locations are pretty much the same, the amount of filler just reaches astronomical proportions.

 

[Modron]

An army of Gaider's would certainly be a lot scarier than the derp spawn.

 

[Delterius]

It's too "heavy" and cinematic, and character progression isn't as steady as I would like it to be (too heavily focused on feats and new awesome button attacks). It's not complete shit but it's not quite passable either. I put NWN2 ahead of it, the shortcomings there are more forgivable.

I'd confirm, but once I booted NwN2 the camera would just turn around endlessly.

 

[sea]

I can understand you taking 80 hours on nightmare difficulty because the fights are that much more difficult. But, my first time through was no more than 50 hours and I did every single possible side-quest available, experienced basically all companion dialogue, looted and plundered the shit out of every location, etc. I had something like a 99% completion rating (I think 100% is impossible because some content is mutually exclusive). I fly through most areas if I replay it because of course now I know how to make a completely overpowered party and I know where most everything is in the game, and it's even faster.

 

[Modron]

According to steam, it took me 89 hours to do all of Dragon Age Origins and DLC (including reloading to redo some of the endings) but granted I imagine 10-15 or so hours of that is me forgetting to close the game down/leaving it running while I meant to only step away for a moment. Might have even left it on overnight once memories a bit fogged up from the droll of the experience. Playing Xcom, the second Monkey Island, and Silent Storm Sentinels as a cleansing precaution now.

 

[deamento]

get the commisar!

 

[Erebus]

I lowered the difficulty to Easy for the Deep Roads because I'm getting more and more bored with the repetitive combat found in this game.

And I'm still tempted to ragequit because the fight against the Broodmother is so fucking annoying.

EDIT : Okay, it's less of a pain in the ass once you devise an effective strategy. Still not entertaining, though. In fact, very few fights since the beginning of the game have been genuinely fun.

 

[Delterius]

And I'm still tempted to ragequit because the fight against the Broodmother is so fucking annoying.

EDIT : Okay, it's less of a pain in the ass once you devise an effective strategy. Still not entertaining, though. In fact, very few fights since the beginning of the game have been genuinely fun.

Can you tell why this is so?

 

[Erebus]

Can you tell why this is so?

Why I seldom find combat to be fun, you mean ? There are too many fights and most of them feel extremely repetitive after a while, the enemies you face lack diversity, bosses are given ridiculous amount of HP (even when they're mere humans or dwarfs), boss fights sometimes rely on annoying gimmicks (such as having the boss disappear and then reappear somewhere else), etc.

 

[Delterius]

No, I mean specifically that boss fight. I mean, what exactly keeps it from being fun if its one of the encounters in the game that aren't filler?

 

[Erebus]

No, I mean specifically that boss fight. I mean, what exactly keeps it from being fun if its one of the encounters in the game that aren't filler?

The boss takes forever to kill, it constantly knocks down your characters, its tentacles disappear after taking enough damage but later reappear partially healed, it summons pointless reinforcements, you can't get to far away from the boss for no good reason, etc.

Using spells like Force Field to neutralize some of the tentacles, the fight was fairly easy, but it still felt more like a chore than a challenge.

 

[Delterius]

No, I mean specifically that boss fight. I mean, what exactly keeps it from being fun if its one of the encounters in the game that aren't filler?

The boss takes forever to kill, it constantly knocks down your characters, its tentacles disappear after taking enough damage but later reappear partially healed, it summons pointless reinforcements, you can't get to far away from the boss for no good reason, etc.

Using spells like Force Field to neutralize some of the tentacles, the fight was fairly easy, but it still felt more like a chore than a challenge.

Move away from the tentacles and only engage in melee with your most resistant character. As for the HP bloat, your party is either underleveled or badly built (lacks god mode mages). Because you haven't seen anything in terms of HP bloat. Especially if you're playing on fucking easy.

 

[GarfunkeL]

That boss is a watered down version of a 40-man raid boss from WoW. When I fought her, I was constantly thinking "why is this so familiar" before it struck me.

BIOWARE: We can't even come up with our own boss fights!

 

[Delterius]

That boss is a watered down version of a 40-man raid boss from WoW. When I fought her, I was constantly thinking "why is this so familiar" before it struck me.

BIOWARE: We can't even come up with our own boss fights!

Pretty much. The 'move away from the fire' mechanic (tentacles) and the adds are evocative of some standard designs from WoW.

 

[Roguey]

DA:O fights don't last any longer than any other average rtwp thing. If you think a battle takes too long, it's because you're terrible.

Same deal with DA2 really, barring a few stupid exceptions.

 

[Delterius]

DA:O fights don't last any longer than any other average rtwp thing. If you think a battle takes too long, it's because you're terrible.

Same deal with DA2 really, barring a few stupid exceptions.

Actually, no. Many DA:O fights last longer than many IE fights, simply because bosses and many enemies exist in a ruleset that isn't the same as that of the player. Personally, DA2 was considerably worse with the damage sponges, even if I only lasted until the beginning of Act 2.

 

[Erebus]

you haven't seen anything in terms of HP bloat. Especially if you're playing on fucking easy.

I shifted the difficulty back to Hard once I reached the Anvil of the Void. Both Branka and Bhelen had a disporportionate amount of HP for no good reason, except that they're bosses. I don't like this. Making them powerful would have been okay, but making them so much more resistant than a PC could ever be feels absurd and WoW-like. The D&D games have shown that it's quite possible to have interesting enemies without giving the impression that they're playing by completely different rules than you are.

It's not so absurd when the boss is a monster, such as the Broodmother. But that fight and others like it were nevertheless annoying and repetitive.

 

[Roguey]

Actually, no. Many DA:O fights last longer than many IE fights, simply because bosses and many enemies exist in a ruleset that isn't the same as that of the player.

Not my experience. All of 'em last minutes at most. If you're expecting them to last seconds, that's not going to happen, and that tends to happen in the IE games if you're using trap spam or those save-or-die thingies. DA:O also has trap spam and shattering completely negates HP. One could alpha strike loads of guys with three mages with cone of cold, stonefist, crushing prison, and a crit-heavy fourth person.

Personally, DA2 was considerably worse with the damage sponges, even if I only lasted until the beginning of Act 2.

Not at all. If anything, individual regular battles end much quicker in DA2.

I shifted the difficulty back to Hard once I reached the Anvil of the Void. Both Branka and Bhelen had a disporportionate amount of HP for no good reason, except that they're bosses. I don't like this. Making them powerful would have been okay, but making them so much more resistant than a PC could ever be feels absurd and WoW-like. The D&D games have shown that it's quite possible to have interesting enemies without giving the impression that they're playing by completely different rules than you are.

If they had as much HP as you did, battles would be over in seconds. Don't look at aspects of system in a vacuum.

 

[Erebus]

If they had as much HP as you did, battles would be over in seconds. Don't look at aspects of system in a vacuum.

I disagree. It stands to reason that enemies designed the same way as normal PCs can be challenging to said PCs. Think of the parties of adventurers you got to fight in the BG series, for instance.

Of course, such enemies should be reasonably more powerful than the PCs, to compensate for the fact that the computer isn't very smart. But they don't need to have 5 or 10 times as many HP. They can have and use healing potions. But if the player finds a smart way to defeat them quickly, then so be it. It strikes me as more satisfying than always having to slowly whittle down their hit points.

 

[Delterius]

I disregarded 'individual regular battles' for good measure, those are filler and do end in seconds in DA:O. Much less in DA2, where HP bloat is reserved for bosses, while 'regular battles' have the overused wave system. Except for, of course, the only difficulty mode where there's friendly fire, where HP bloat is everywhere.

The D&D games have shown that it's quite possible to have interesting enemies without giving the impression that they're playing by completely different rules than you are.

Often they are using the same rulesets, but are special nonetheless. Sarevok, for a instance, is levels above the cap. And he's the only enemy in the entirety of BG1 that you won't easily defeat due to overlevelling, same thing with DA:O's scaley combat - if someone's supposed to be stronger than you, then they are. They could have higher armor or defense than normal, and they often do, but instead they have HP.

Its not so different, really. Your enemies can't be your equal, because then there's no drama. And every battle being a bunch of mooks against the player, DA2 showed us that.

 

[Roguey]

I disagree. It stands to reason that enemies designed the same way as normal PCs can be challenging to said PCs. Think of the parties of adventurers you got to fight in the BG series, for instance.

DA:O has some of those too. They don't last long.

Of course, such enemies should be reasonably more powerful than the PCs, to compensate for the fact that the computer isn't very smart. But they don't need to have 5 or 10 times as many HP. They can have and use healing potions. But if the player finds a smart way to defeat them quickly, then so be it. It strikes me as more satisfying than always having to slowly whittle down their hit points.

In the IE games instead of whittling down points, you're missing most of the time. Or having to take down a bunch of protections and lowering their magic resistance before you can smash them. Or waiting the 6 seconds for your character to actually do something. Time is what matters, not the numbers involved.

 

[Zeriel]

You can have same-power-as-PC groups of enemies be very dangerous. XCOM for instance actually balances the deck _against_ the aliens, because if they were capable of what the player is late-game, the player would get stomped.

The "one super big enemy" design of boss encounters tends to be what makes them trivial. Large numbers of competent enemies are very dangerous, in comparison.

 

[Delterius]

Time is what matters, not the numbers involved.

That depends on your conception of what a 'Hitpoint' mean. And most conflate that with 'Health'.

It makes sense that a High Magic setting has these superhuman fighters who can withstand stronger blows and dodge a lot (AC). There, it also makes sense that their bodies are more resistant than what you'd expect (HP). And wether one or the other value is used to assert the enemies' power and (supposed) superiority over the player is a key difference of wether the world itself makes sense.

In the IE games, most enemies are as vulnerable as your characters. Indeed, both sides are quite vulnerable once you manage to hit the fighters and bring the enemies' defenses down. So while you may spen two whole rounds of 6 seconds dispelling the enemies' defenses or disabling their AC somehow, the fight's end is abrupt. It makes sense that the evil wizard, once his Stoneskin or whatever is dispelled, would actually suffer strikes of multiple fighters overwhelming him.

In DA:O, if you conflate Hitpoints with Health, then enemies are often strangely more powerful than you in a single way. Becoming a wonder why your character is the legendary hero. After all, its not just Grimdark Abominations and Dragons who have a stronger body than yours. Some nobody who happened to be flagged as a 'Lieutenant' enemy also does. That same wizard, let's call him Zathrian, doesn't need spell defenses since multiple strikes to his face won't dent his Health.

 

[GarfunkeL]

SCS creates quite challenging encounters inside the framework of the IE engine. True, the author had to increase their levels but, unlike the Tactics mod, he didn't deviate from P&P rules. Just by giving them AI scripts which notice spell immunities and utilize their spells "smartly".

Or having to take down a bunch of protections and lowering their magic resistance before you can smash them. Or waiting the 6 seconds for your character to actually do something.

Which, IMHO, is infinitely more interesting than whittling down a gigantic HP bar.