People News SHOCKER: Chris Avellone leaves Obsidian Entertainment

[Immortal]

So... I concur and still hate myself for it to this day.

I thought the opening was very hilarious the first time around - and since you can skip it the second time around, I dont see too much of an issue with it. Depending on people's attention span I guess.

I think the issue is with the information dump your getting. Too much is being explained to you through baby feeding narrative. Would have been nicer to find out wtf is going on your own a bit more. At least that is how I interpret it.

 

[Jasede]

I do think the more plot / information / background you can tell in quips, banter, scenery, pictures, graffiti and so on, the better you're succeeding as a writer. We all know you should show, not tell. Your characters shouldn't dump info, the info should be inferred based on their actions, beliefs, even looks. From what I've learned, people tend to advise you to lead readers to the conclusion rather than spelling it out. You'd avoid writing "he was angry" unless you want to keep the part moving along quickly; you'd rather write what exactly makes the character look angry? Or how does he chose his words that indicate anger? That sort of thing.

If we're honest with ourselves I do think even PS:T and KOTOR 2 (much as I adore them dearly - I do think other than NieR there aren't really any better written games) suffers from this at the start. I often have trouble getting people to play these games because there's a lot of text very early on. The mortuary in PS:T, that station in KOTOR 2 and that long cave in MOTB.

But then, I don't really have a solution either! Starting in medias res too much can quickly lead to confusion, too. You know MCA, if you're really reading this, I suggest you try playing the beginning of Dark Souls. A lot of the story and setting is told without words, simply through the way the enemies look, the areas are designed, the architecture, the tone of voice of the characters you meet.

Which again, leads me to an interesting conundrum - if we really, really want to create an amazing game it needs to be a gesamtkunstwerk. The writing can be as good as it wants if the art design, the music and so on aren't properly conducive to the whole... so in essence, to make the best RPG (or game) possible, we need not only the best writer, but also the best animators, artists, level designers, and so on. And most of - and maybe that's me being a fanboy of Japanese games - we need a director who ties this all together. A conductor if you will, someone who makes all the parts go together. You can't enjoy Beethoven's 9th if the choir is too loud or the violins too quiet or fast, right?

Meh, I didn't really write anything here we don't all already know. But I guess I felt like doing it, anyway.

 

[Athelas]

So... I concur and still hate myself for it to this day.

While this doesn't excuse the length (nothing can, and a number of people at the studio refused to give the DLC a chance on play days because of it), after numerous... discussions concerning how much more the context of Dead Money needed to be explained at the outset (which I fiercely disagreed with and its the reason Elijah goes on so long), the Old World Blues intro was designed as a response to prevent further such time-wasting discussions and I never should have bent the knee to the thought because, hey, players don't need to have everything explained to them if they see it working in the actual world they're exploring.

Give us the names of the Obsidian employees who were involved in these discussions.

 

[Ninjerk]

I do think the more plot / information / background you can tell in quips, banter, scenery, pictures, graffiti and so on, the better you're succeeding as a writer. We all know you should show, not tell. Your characters shouldn't dump info, the info should be inferred based on their actions, beliefs, even looks. From what I've learned, people tend to advise you to lead readers to the conclusion rather than spelling it out. You'd avoid writing "he was angry" unless you want to keep the part moving along quickly; you'd rather write what exactly makes the character look angry? Or how does he chose his words that indicate anger? That sort of thing.

If we're honest with ourselves I do think even PS:T and KOTOR 2 (much as I adore them dearly - I do think other than NieR there aren't really any better written games) suffers from this at the start. I often have trouble getting people to play these games because there's a lot of text very early on. The mortuary in PS:T, that station in KOTOR 2 and that long cave in MOTB.

But then, I don't really have a solution either! Starting in medias res too much can quickly lead to confusion, too. You know MCA, if you're really reading this, I suggest you try playing the beginning of Dark Souls. A lot of the story and setting is told without words, simply through the way the enemies look, the areas are designed, the architecture, the tone of voice of the characters you meet.

Which again, leads me to an interesting conundrum - if we really, really want to create an amazing game it needs to be a gesamtkunstwerk. The writing can be as good as it wants if the art design, the music and so on aren't properly conducive to the whole... so in essence, to make the best RPG (or game) possible, we need not only the best writer, but also the best animators, artists, level designers, and so on. And most of - and maybe that's me being a fanboy of Japanese games - we need a director who ties this all together. A conductor if you will, someone who makes all the parts go together. You can't enjoy Beethoven's 9th if the choir is too loud or the violins too quiet or fast, right?

Meh, I didn't really write anything here we don't all already know. But I guess I felt like doing it, anyway.

The problem with KotOR2 isn't the text. The game is in a clunky engine with gameplay that is really quite bad.

 

[Jasede]

I could level the same complaint at New Vegas, PS:T, MOTB...

 

[Irenaeus II]

Worse, Ninjerk: Dark Souls is awfully boring button mashing and the intro is beyond generic (never played past the beginning). Don't be fooled by this furry shilling an overrated game.

I thought the Mortuary in PS:T was brilliant and I always replay it; people who are put off by it and don't want to read much in a game should stick to their action games like Twitcher or the Dragon Ages shits, like it seems half this forum does.

Give me more reading material, I say. I have the $$$

 

[Athelas]

What's wrong with the Mortuary? You can examine everything in there for hours...or you can exit the place in 2 minutes. It doesn't suffer from reliance on cutscenes and such like later games, nor does it have any trash mobs. It's one of the most well-designed opening sections of an RPG.

It's also probably the best-designed area in the game in terms of supporting different role-playing approaches. Multiple exits, multiple stat-based ways to deal with the Dustmen, multiple disguises even (Dustman or zombie), etc.

 

[Jasede]

I honestly think he's just trolling.


Anyway, new players these days - not myself, but new, prospective players you suggest this game to - tend to be have an innate sense of completionism. They want to read every line, or not read at all. But there's a hell of a lot to read and a massive amount of exposition. Yes, you can skip it all, but modern players don't seem aware of this - and if you do try to read everything you can certainly spend many, many hours. It's too much exposition too early, arguably. This area has been the biggest hurdle in getting friends to play PS:T.

 

[Ninjerk]

I honestly think he's just trolling.

You think?

Anyway, new players these days - not myself, but new, prospective players you suggest this game to - tend to be have an innate sense of completionism. They want to read every line, or not read at all. But there's a hell of a lot to read and a massive amount of exposition. Yes, you can skip it all, but modern players don't seem aware of this - and if you do try to read everything you can certainly spend many, many hours. It's too much exposition too early, arguably. This area has been the biggest hurdle in getting friends to play PS:T.

The biggest hurdle to people playing PST is that if they don't like reading and having a metaphysical conversation with an author they will never like the game. Everything depends on this one aspect, and the gameplay isn't good enough otherwise to carry the game.

EDIT: Jasede, I didn't see your first reply. Progressing the narrative in NV is actually much more freeform, and New Vegas has enough gameplay outside of the narrative to engage the player (whether that's collecting cans of bullshit, etc.). The big difference I see is that there is more to it than running through a series of corridors queuing your strongest attack/Force power.

MOTB I haven't played enough to comment on.

 

[ROARRR]

Brazil is a p. cool guy and has a large part of german-descendant population which is 100% white. And when I say Brazil what I mean is Bra71l.

Someone does the Hitler dance

 

[Jasede]

Well, I've ignored him for now. Usually I don't really ever ignore anyone but an account made -solely- to troll? I mean, who even has the time for that these days? It's fine to, y'know, troll sometimes, but that amount if dedication seems borderline unstable. And trust me, I know unstable.

PS:T does a pretty good job at showing, not telling, past the Mortuary, though.

 

[Ninjerk]

Well, I've ignored him for now. Usually I don't really ever ignore anyone but an account made -solely- to troll? I mean, who even has the time for that these days? It's fine to, y'know, troll sometimes, but that amount if dedication seems borderline unstable. And trust me, I know unstable.

PS:T does a pretty good job at showing, not telling, past the Mortuary, though.

Are you calling Roguey unstable?

 

[Irenaeus II]

You people obsess about me too much. Let's focus on C. Avellone, please.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Worse, Ninjerk: Dark Souls is awfully boring button mashing and the intro is beyond generic (never played past the beginning). Don't be fooled by this furry shilling an overrated game.

I thought the Mortuary in PS:T was brilliant and I always replay it; people who are put off by it and don't want to read much in a game should stick to their action games like Twitcher or the Dragon Ages shits, like it seems half this forum does.

Give me more reading material, I say. I have the $$$

To be honest I like both action and more cerebral games but fully agree PS:T, KOTOR2 and MOTB had great opening arenas. Sadly we won't get those anymore since Ziets and Avallone are both replaced by this dullard Sawyer. If you don't have genius for those Make those simple as in Morrowind not those damn 5 mintutes unskipable Movies and CTEs like in Skyrim.

 

[Immortal]

Well, I've ignored him for now. Usually I don't really ever ignore anyone but an account made -solely- to troll?

Trolling is just what retarded people claim to do when they say stupid shit and regret it.

Spoiler

 

[ROARRR]

Chris Avellone is a nice guy.
He can write and proved it many times with games I do not have to recite.
This is his picture:
(he likes nodding)
He has a clear voice.
He can also draw.
He studied computer science, but likes designing more.
You can follow him on twitter.
He left Obsidian entertainment.
He works for inxile at the moment.
of course there is a lot more about him (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Gg4EPGMiA)
I hope he will start writing again in High quality.

 

[Infinitron]

Is that supposed to be some kind of meme?

In any case MCA didn't study CS, he has an English literature degree with a minor in architecture

 

[Starwars]

When I first played through them, Honest Hearts was my least favorite of the NV DLC. But upon replaying, it has actually become my favorite. I think the writing especially is "just right" for what I want from Fallout. I don't normally like the tribal shit but in HH I found it very well done. Joshua Graham was awesome. Zion was beautiful. And the Survivalist logs were some of the best "backstory segments" Fallout has ever seen. The rest of them have very heavy stories and dialogues and for me, that was never quite what I wanted in Fallout games though I do certainly appreciate a really in-depth dialogue tree for certain moments.

I do think all the NV DLC are really good and set a high bar for what DLC can be.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Meanwhile, in the secret brolist subforum, Codexers are rating the 2015 intake:

 

[Excidium II]

Is that supposed to be some kind of meme?

In any case MCA didn't study CS, he has an English literature degree with a minor in architecture

I remember reading he did some cs-related short course when he joined black isle

 

[ROARRR]

Is that supposed to be some kind of meme?

In any case MCA didn't study CS, he has an English literature degree with a minor in architecture

thomas jefferson high school for science and technology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCCuxo5YDkc#t=6m19s

 

[DeepOcean]

When I first played through them, Honest Hearts was my least favorite of the NV DLC. But upon replaying, it has actually become my favorite. I think the writing especially is "just right" for what I want from Fallout. I don't normally like the tribal shit but in HH I found it very well done. Joshua Graham was awesome. Zion was beautiful. And the Survivalist logs were some of the best "backstory segments" Fallout has ever seen. The rest of them have very heavy stories and dialogues and for me, that was never quite what I wanted in Fallout games though I do certainly appreciate a really in-depth dialogue tree for certain moments.

I do think all the NV DLC are really good and set a high bar for what DLC can be.

It is the most Fallouty of the DLC and its beautiful, the survivalist diaries add a whole neat context for the area. The survivalist diaries isn't just lore dumping what is fucking boring but actually give a whole meaning to a belief system when you discover it, it was fucking brillant, it was lore done right. I think alot of people give a hard time to it because the DLC hype up Joshua Graham and the whole tribal thing, you expect a big pay off and alot of interaction with him and other tribals and that doesn't happen. The DLC ends on an awkward way with you murdering some generic bad guys after a bunch of fetch quests while the other DLC had more developed plots.

 

[Zep Zepo]

He has a drawing of himself as a Tranny in the background...No one noticed this?

Zep--

 

[Tacgnol]

He has a drawing of himself as a Tranny in the background...No one noticed this?

Zep--

Does he dream of "balancing" his gender?

 

[Love]

I feel uneasy speculating about Avellone's misdeeds and future when he's capable of reading it. Can't the moderation block him from those kind of threads?