Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Ivan]

i need a nigga to help me make sense of this! Where is Randal ?!?!

 

[Morality Games]

Sheeeit, you were right Fairfax. Level 1 it is. I hope you at least get to reach higher levels at the end, and faster.

Now I'm going to have to worry that the Pillars ruleset is going to get Tyrannied.

 

[Haplo]

Well, I understand the reasoning for the level reset. And am rather glad we won't be playing demi-gods from the start.
I think level 6-8 could have been a better starting point though. And the explanation sucks.
Another PC would work better in this case IMO.

 

[Morality Games]

Well, I understand the reasoning for the level reset. And am rather glad we won't be playing demi-gods from the start.
I think level 6-8 could have been a better starting point though. And the explanation sucks.
Another PC would work better in this case IMO.

The explanation is that the ruleset is getting an overhaul to the extent that starting at Level 6-8 wouldn't make any evolutionary sense to anyone.

Spoiler

Probably

 

[Lacrymas]

They either have to revamp all the classes or reverse/adapt their decision (i.e. higher starting level, like 8), otherwise the entire first game is pointless. It still is pointless since you begin from level 1, but it won't feel exactly the same if they are revamped. Can't say that I'm surprised really, they shot themselves in the foot by going to level 16 in the very first game. Some classes ended up at level 8 in BG1.

 

[Morality Games]

Granted, classes like the Chanter were founded on misplaced premises (almost any battle will end sooner real-time than his late level invocations/chants), so an overhaul has some potential to do good.

 

[Infinitron]

Haven't seen much evidence that Josh is planning an extensive overhaul. I asked him about it in one of the recent streams and he downplayed the extent of the changes he was making.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Sheeeit, you were right Fairfax. Level 1 it is. I hope you at least get to reach higher levels at the end, and faster.

Jesus, this is simply retarded. So if one day we have PoE3, will Obsidian come up with another excuse to go back to Level 1?

It's not necessary that we play as The Watcher in a future game.

On the flip side, this resetting is definitely an opportunity for Obsidian to overhaul the skills system, as I think I saw Josh mentioning he would do.

 

[Morality Games]

Haven't seen much evidence that Josh is planning an extensive overhaul. I asked him about it in one of the recent streams and he downplayed the extent of the changes he was making.

There's a steady tendency among the game industry to downplay anything potentially divisive.

The fact that we're starting at Level 1 and not 6-8 and switching the party from 6 to 5 doesn't bode well for non-extensive changes.

That we didn't hear about this until after funding had been met also doesn't bode well and reminds me that there's a reason why I wait until the end of a campaign to pledge.

 

[Morality Games]

Whatever you say. I can't help but feel as though my misgiving have borne out more than once on these issues.

 

[Fairfax]

Sheeeit, you were right Fairfax. Level 1 it is. I hope you at least get to reach higher levels at the end, and faster.

Sawyer is predictable. You'll see the reasoning when he gets asked to explain the decision in detail.

 

[ushas]

I didn't notice those three companions pictures posted in higher resolution here, so I apologize if it's old. Links taken from the Polygon article.

Pallegina

Eder

Aloth

 

[Infinitron]

Sheeeit, you were right Fairfax. Level 1 it is. I hope you at least get to reach higher levels at the end, and faster.

Sawyer is predictable. You'll see the reasoning when he gets asked to explain the decision in detail.

 

[Abu Antar]

From a gameplay perspective, I am okay with starting at level 1. Their explanation for the Watcher starting from scratch, I can buy. But it feels strange for your companions. That is if they weren't all visiting you when shit went down at your HQ.

Starting from the level that you ended up with in the first game wouldn't have worked, though. Shit was chaotic with all ability and spell effects. You'd probably end up at level 30+ if we say that you started at level 15 in PoE2. You'd be able to take down the entire universe with your powers. On top of that, players would end up with epileptic seizures from all the shenanigans happening at the same time during combat.

 

[Lacrymas]

Oh, right, why are we downsizing the party again?

 

[Morality Games]

Oh, right, why are we downsizing the party again?

Ludo Lense might be able to shed light on this issue.

But in case he doesn't show up, I think he would say that the individual classes require far more micro-management than the Infinity Engine games (non/low spellcasting classes tend to fly on autopilot in those games), so they need to have 5 classes to make combat feel less overwhelming, aka, to improve the game feel.

Also obviously easier to manage encounters against exploits.

 

[Sannom]

Oh, right, why are we downsizing the party again?

MotB syndrome. All the companions could be taken in the same play-through otherwise.

Also, 5 is an elegant number whereas 6 isn't.

 

[Infinitron]

Oh, right, why are we downsizing the party again?

MotB syndrome. All the companions could be taken in the same play-through otherwise.

Also, 5 is an elegant number whereas 6 isn't.

If that was true then an imported solo character (or a character who just never spoke to those three returning companions) would only have 2 companions at his disposal in PoE2.

Josh has said several times that he thinks smaller parties play better, it's probably as simple as that.

 

[Mazisky]

Why some guys are acting like they gutted the party from 6 to 2......5 is perfectly fine and more than enough, expecially with subclasses.

 

[Lacrymas]

While it is true that some classes require less micro than others in the IE games, it depends on the party. If you have a party with 1 fighter, 1 fighter/druid (or only druid), 1 cleric and 3 mages it will still be micro-heavy. At the end of PoE (and most of Tyranny) you did end up spending more time pausing and issuing orders than anything else, so I guess I can understand it on those grounds.

 

[Fairfax]

Well, I understand the reasoning for the level reset. And am rather glad we won't be playing demi-gods from the start.
I think level 6-8 could have been a better starting point though. And the explanation sucks.
Another PC would work better in this case IMO.

The explanation is that the ruleset is getting an overhaul to the extent that starting at Level 6-8 wouldn't make any evolutionary sense to anyone.

Spoiler

Probably

It's because it wouldn't be newcomer friendly. New players would be forced to make several decisions while building the character without having enough experience and knowledge to know what they're doing. With multiclassing and sub-classes, even knowledgeable PoE1 players would need some kind of respec, otherwise they'd be punished for loading a save. They couldn't offer the option to start at level 1 or 8/16/whatever because then the game would need either level scaling or two different version of every single encounter in the game. People will rightfully complain and tell Sawyer that it worked just fine in BG2, and he'll proceed to criticize BG2 and the AD&D ruleset.

All of the potential issues could've been solved with the option to respec later on, but he would oppose that as well.

 

[Infinitron]

Reminder - discussion of this from Bubbles' interview: http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=10493

There's one thing about Pillars 2 people asked about that's very hotly debated, which is the curve of what sort of enemies you might possibly face in the sequel to a game that has you destroying fragments of a god, dealing with Eothas, a Kraken, two archmages, a millennia-old entity, dragons, gods' assistants... that's a very high bar to raise if you go more epic. Is that your idea, to raise the bar?

I think we do have to a little bit, but we don't have to go up by the same distance that we did in the first game. I don't think we have to go way up into the stratosphere and be fighting like the gods themselves. You would expect to see more powerful creatures than you've seen before.

Something like epic level gnolls like in Mask of the Betrayer? It's a level 20 adventure.

I did some late-combat tuning for Mask of the Betrayer, and it's hard to balance around characters for that level. So we do have to be careful about how the power curve increases and about how crazy the enemies get, but we would want to go up, just not by the same proportion.

You already have something in mind?

Yeah.

So you have a plan now. I wanted to ask if you had a plan before Pillars, but...

No, I mean, we looked at Icewind Dale and Icewind Dale II, Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate II, so we had in mind that sense that where you go is going to go up even if the bottom end doesn't necessarily. In Icewind Dale II you started over at one, in Baldur's Gate II you started out somewhere around 7 and 8 and went up from there. There will be overlap I think, but I think everyone will expect the level of challenge to increase overall.

Do you believe there has to be some sort of power scaling for Pillars of Eternity 2 if you want to revisit enemies from the previous game?

Yeah, that's always a concern, but we're looking at making system changes. It's not like everything scaled perfectly in Pillars 1 anyway. Going back and looking at system overall can help, then looking at the content itself. Obviously you can run into things like "level 30 wolves, does this feel appropriate or should we have something else here?"

You have the advantage of not working with pen and paper, so you're not bound by those rules.

Yeah, we're not bound, but people will still sort of draw relative power balances, like "Okay, this baby dragon is this level and an elder bear is the same level, I don't like that, I don't think that natural creature should be on par with this supernatural creature." Some people will just look at the level as a way to gauge relative power level balance, it'll just feel weird, and even if it's not D&D, they'll say "I don't think a natural creature should be 20th level."

In retrospect, he basically spelled it out here:

so we had in mind that sense that where you go is going to go up even if the bottom end doesn't necessarily.

Level 1, but higher cap.

 

[Morality Games]

Assuming that progression will still be expanded past WM's max level, I could see this working. Enfeebled by your broken soul, you retreat the first 10 or so levels with new companions. Once you are close to your old level of power you reunite with Eder/Aloth/Pallegina. Maybe one of them actually needs to recover from the attack of the irate 500 foot god of niceness. There, you don't need to design 10 more levels of power and the storytelling feels slightly less forced.

I don't think the relationship between levels/experience points and the narrative is that literal.

Most of the PoE companions are veterans/bad asses when you first meet them. Eder was a highly regarded soldier, Pallegina is a member of the foremost Paladin order in Vallia, etc, Durance brought the Godhammer down on Eothas, etc.

If Levels/experience points represent anything, its learning how to work together as a group or learning how to apply your powers and abilities to the specific demands of a campaign/military endeavor.

Ergo, Eder's adventures with the Watcher in PoE1 being completely different from his participation in the Saint's War justify him being Level 1 despite being a military veteran.

So the fact the party is reuniting in a new environment/situation years after the end of the original campaign justifies the drop in levels.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Eh, first game's ruleset turned out quite okay in the end, even if it took two expansions and several major patches. And make no mistake here, this was only possible because of Sawyer's commitment to continue spending time and money on improving the ruleset. If nothing else, the guy has genuine passion for the genre, even if his views are sometimes controversial. So if he went for reduced party size, he needs to have some reason for it, one that isn't just "I'm Josh Sawyer, fuck you suck my dick".

 

[Delterius]

If Levels/experience points represent anything, its learning how to work together as a group or learning how to apply your powers and abilities to the specific demands of a campaign/military endeavor.

That makes absolutely no sense. Whatever bearing does your teamwork have on your ability to cast 8th level spells? Levels as a mechanic measures the individual's power. For what you propose to be true, we'd lose levels every time we work with someone else. And we wouldn't even need the story justification of losing part of your soul or whatever. Hell, presumably Eder, Pallegina and Aloth are still working with each other. Why would they lose levels then?