Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Lacrymas]

Lacrymas who did you sacrifice to Skaen in this game?

Sagani for the PER and ACC bonuses.

 

[Trashos]

• antagonist - cmon, Irenicus is a Mary Sue and his motivation is a pure revenge fantasy, Eothas at least adds a spin to it

There's nothing inherently wrong with pure revenge fantasy (Kreia is ultimately a revenge motivated character, for example). At most, there can be plenty wrong with the motivations for the revenge, which I'd agree can be perceived as childish by some in the case of Irenicus. But I also partially agreed to this when I said above that "BG2 has a simple narrative and characters". The point is, the BG2 writers didn't have any illusions of grandeur with going for pseudo-philosophical themes. Eothas isn't even an antagonist in PoE2. He's like the nicest character you meet in the entire game. Irenicus's final fight was also better than PoE2's, which didn't have a final confrontation with anyone at all. You talk to Eothas and he's all like "Bros, I love you all very much, and I have faith in you. Just b urselves =)", you say "1. Okay" and the game ends.

Irenicus is a slamdunk antagonist who made history, and the themes behind him are very deep for those who might care. I have written about the themes before, but here is some food for thought again:

- Revenge. Obvious one.
- Individual vs Society (Irenicus clashes with his people when they ask him to know his place)
- Birthright (Bhaalspawn) vs Challenger (Irenicus), in weird reversed roles, since Irenicus is more formidable than the Bhaalspawn at the beginning of the adventure.
- Hybris (by Irenicus) & Nemesis (ie, punishment for said hubris), in the tradition of Greek Tragedy.
(Hybris: Wanting to be a God without having the birthright / turning against his own people and gods / arrogance over the threat of the Bhaalspawn)

The execution of the above themes in the context of a videogame is also nearly flawless. They never overburden the player, they just support the characters and drive the narrative, like a drummer who knows when to not steal the show. Add to that Warner's voice acting and some very strong monologues, and you have one of the most memorable videogame antagonists of all time.

I will go as far as to say that part of the genius here is that most people enjoyed Irenicus without ever realizing the themes.

 

[fantadomat]

Lacrymas who did you sacrifice to Skaen in this game?

Sagani for the PER and ACC bonuses.

In dumpsterfire not the first one.

 

[Sentinel]

Ultimately my main problem with PoE2 is that every questline felt so incredibly short. I just did a google search for Fallout New Vegas faction quests and:

Brotherhood of Steel, a minor faction, has 5 quests;
Followers of the Apocalypse, a minor faction, have 6 quests;
Great Khans, a minor faction, have 5 quests;
Boomers, a minor faction, have 4 quests;
Caesar's Legion, a major faction, has 20 quests;
Yes Man, a major faction, has 8 quests;
Mr. House, a major faction, has 13 quests;
NCR, a major faction, has 42 quests.

Any quest where you can side with faction X is counted towards faction X's quest count (this doesn't always mean that there's a choice in which faction's side to take).

In terms of areas:
Primm has 7 quests;
Novac has 9 quests;
Goodsrpings has 11 quests.

In terms of main questline:
Caesar's Legion run has 4 quests;
Yes Man run has 7 quests;
Mr. House run has 9 quests;
NCR run has 5 quests;
This is not including the 2 introductory quests (They Went That-a-Way & Ring-a-Ding-Ding)

F:NV's shortest questline is 5 quests. My memory may be getting hazy, or maybe my game was bugged out, but I think the longest questline I saw in PoE2 was the main quest. Upon checking, it has 7 quests, this counting the introductory one.

The faction questlines for PoE2:
5 for the Principi;
6 for Royal Deadfire Company;
7 for Vailian Republics.

I felt PoE2 had tons of sidequests that were left hanging. I keep moaning about this but it really is the most disappointing aspect of the game. Arkemyr's quest is the most damning example of this.

FNV had 18 months in development with a ready-to-go engine. PoE2 spent, let's be generous, 1 year in engine development work. That leaves 2 years for game development. What happened? Where did the quests go?

 

[Lacrymas]

Themes are only themes if they go somewhere. If we go by your interpretation, what does it mean when Irenicus lost? That society is stronger than the individual? That birthright is stronger than whatever challenger? How are these themes explored besides he mouthing off?

In dumpsterfire not the first one.

I haven't played it.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Game is okay but dammit fix those bugs. Naval combat bugged, wages glitch, crits not working properly, who knows how many skill/feat bugs, etc.

I don't hate it and I don't want it to fail. I actually made a D&D campaign like this years ago; a sandbox sailing adventure with pirates, naval combat, etc. So I was pretty optimistic about this game. It's just that Pillars 1 was like a warm bucket of oatmeal, so it was hard to get too hyped.

antagonist - cmon, Irenicus is a Mary Sue and his motivation is a pure revenge fantasy, Eothas at least adds a spin to it

What I liked about BG2's plot and Irenicus in particular is that he had no big grudge against the player, he was just using you for his schemes. He has the classic flaws of hubris and hamartia; pride and a sense of infallibility. Of course if he had left you alone (abandoning his revenge plot) he would have survived. But then he wouldn't be Irenicus, would he? Classic Shakespearean character, voiced by a Shakespearean actor no less.

On top of that, the hero is a "chosen one" not of a good god but of an evil one, and instead of embracing his magical god powers he needs to suppress them. That's a twist. Compare that to Pillars where the player is a bog-standard Chosen One. When the gods tell you to confront Eothas your options are "Okay" or "No (but still do it anyway)." *sigh*

 

[Delterius]

Because the events up to the first town (even up to Maerwald) aren't connected to each other. There are 4 events - your belly ache and the search for berries, the attack on the caravan, the dungeon delving and the ritual at Cilant Lis.

Really? This shit again, Lacrymas?

0) You're an immigrant who joined a caravan towards Gilded Vale for whatever reason you choose to tell Calisca.

1.a) The caravan is forced to stop due to the darkness of the night and fallen trees on the road.

1.b) At the same time, the Leaden Key enters the nearby forbidden ruins.

2) This prompts a glanfathan attack on all nearby foreigners, including the caravan.

2.b) Luckily, due to your Oregon Trail Syndrome you were away from the encampment at the time.

2.c) Meanwhile, the Leaden Key's first ritual spell summons a biawac.

3) This causes you to flee into Cliant Lis.

4) The entrance collapses behind you, forcing you to delve into the dungeon to escape.

5) As you do so, you witness the Key's second ritual spell. This gives you strange visions and leaves you fatigued.

6) Alone and confused, you seek the closest possible refuge. The town you were already going to anyways.

And in case you need yet another reminder, the reason you go to Defiance Bay is because that's where Maerwald tells you you'll find the Leaden Key.

The first soulguilt trip becomes the focus of the story because it leads up to Iovara, but the narrative wasn't about that before and it still isn't, you have to catch up to Thaos, so that's where it falls apart. It splits itself into two disconnected parts. I don't know if I'm explaining it understanbly.

Yes you have to literally catch up to your past lives, as part of the soul guilt. The embodiment of that is Thaos.

 

[Lacrymas]

Not the chain of events, the events themselves aren't connected to each other. It would've been the same narrative had the caravan not been attacked and you hadn't gone through the dungeon.

 

[fantadomat]

Ultimately my main problem with PoE2 is that every questline felt so incredibly short. I just did a google search for Fallout New Vegas faction quests and:

Brotherhood of Steel, a minor faction, has 5 quests;
Followers of the Apocalypse, a minor faction, have 6 quests;
Great Khans, a minor faction, have 5 quests;
Boomers, a minor faction, have 4 quests;
Caesar's Legion, a major faction, has 20 quests;
Yes Man, a major faction, has 8 quests;
Mr. House, a major faction, has 13 quests;
NCR, a major faction, has 42 quests.

Any quest where you can side with faction X is counted towards faction X's quest count (this doesn't always mean that there's a choice in which faction's side to take).

In terms of areas:
Primm has 7 quests;
Novac has 9 quests;
Goodsrpings has 11 quests.

In terms of main questline:
Caesar's Legion run has 4 quests;
Yes Man run has 7 quests;
Mr. House run has 9 quests;
NCR run has 5 quests;
This is not including the 2 introductory quests (They Went That-a-Way & Ring-a-Ding-Ding)

F:NV's shortest questline is 5 quests. My memory may be getting hazy, or maybe my game was bugged out, but I think the longest questline I saw in PoE2 was the main quest. Upon checking, it has 7 quests, this counting the introductory one.

The faction questlines for PoE2:
5 for the Principi;
6 for Royal Deadfire Company;
7 for Vailian Republics.

I felt PoE2 had tons of sidequests that were left hanging. I keep moaning about this but it really is the most disappointing aspect of the game. Arkemyr's quest is the most damning example of this.

FNV had 18 months in development with a ready-to-go engine. PoE2 spent, let's be generous, 1 year in engine development work. That leaves 2 years for game development. What happened? Where did the quests go?

It is good to see that i am not the only one that managed to peer through the veil of time wasting shenanigans and see how small the actual content is.

 

[Parabalus]

• Bg quests with multiple solutions are rarity, you don't need even the &C part of C&C.

True. I already commented on it though.

• antagonist - cmon, Irenicus is a Mary Sue and his motivation is a pure revenge fantasy, Eothas at least adds a spin to it

There's nothing inherently wrong with pure revenge fantasy. At most, there can be plenty wrong with the motivations for the revenge, which I'd agree can be perceived as childish by some in the case of Irenicus. But I also partially agreed to this when I said above that "BG2 has a simple narrative and characters". The point is, the BG2 writers didn't have any illusions of grandeur with going for pseudo-philosophical themes. Eothas isn't even an antagonist in PoE2. He's like the nicest character you meet in the entire game. Irenicus's final fight was also better than PoE2's, which didn't have a final confrontation with anyone at all. You talk to Eothas and he's all like "Bros, I love you all very much, and I have faith in you. Just b urselves =)", you say "1. Okay" and the game ends.

But I'm interested, what spin do you feel Eothas puts on the revenge fantasy trope? I don't think he wanted revenge at all. At least not in my game.

• Do you mean ToB or SoA ending here? If SoA, the I agree, Deadfire ending kinda feels like how Bg2 would be if the game ends after you kill him at the tree, without the trials

I mean SoA. I never completed ToB.

As for the "romanticized feelings towards BG2", I didn't play through it when I was young, so there isn't any nostalgia involved there.

You commented on reactivity, but the majority of quests don't have more than one approach or resolutions to them. That's a separate issue IMO.

Marty Sue comment was how he continuously succeeds and cucks you at every turn effortlessly (soloing the Cowled Wizards?) , I find far more at fault there than with the "straightforward" story (nothing wrong with the story at all).
Eothas is at least handwaved as a God in that regard. Him not wanting revenge, and doing it out of love (and not being a villian), is the spin I meant.

Dumpsterfire's ending would be less insulting if the guardian and the fight after were harder, I agree it sucks.

That was meant for my view of Bg2, edited post to clarify, it has a lot of parts which appear to be weaker than more modern offerings, yet seemingly somehow nobody manages to make them fit together in a much better way - I'm not certain this view of mine is very objective.

Lacrymas who did you sacrifice to Skaen in this game?

Sagani for the PER and ACC bonuses.

I got lucky and the sucky -1DR bonus of DoC was translated to +1PEN.

Missed out on her armor though, allegedly best on in Dumpsterfire.

Not the chain of events, the events themselves aren't connected to each other. It would've been the same narrative had the caravan not been attacked and you hadn't gone through the dungeon.

Why is that important though, it not being deliberated by destiny?

Random minor stuff happens, that's life.

 

[frajaq]

I wish they were more ballsy with reputation changes and faction quests

I can complete all quests for all factions a good part of the game and they all still love me, while I sunk pretty much every single faction ship I saw

What in the fuck? I want quests that make me kill major elements of the other faction that's not just endgame stuff. How about a mission where the Vaillians hire me to sabotage the submarine project in Sakuya and bomb the place? Or give covert support to the druid circle that is against them?

How about a Huana mission where I permanently cripple that one Principi fort from the inside? This archipelago setting has so much potential but it's squandered...

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I will go as far as to say that part of the genius here is that most people enjoyed Irenicus without ever realizing the themes.

Yup. Old writers understood human nature, which is good drama and required for good storytelling.

The difference with modern writers is that they believe it is their job to rewrite human nature. As a result every character feels forced, unnatural, and artificial.

 

[Lacrymas]

Why is that important though, it not being deliberated by destiny?

Random minor stuff happens, that's life.

Because it's a waste of time in a fictional constructed narrative. Nobody will ever give you the advice to write about random disconnected events that don't matter to something within the closed plot system as a whole. And that's why it's illogical in the context of writing.

 

[Trashos]

Themes are only themes if they go somewhere. If we go by your interpretation, what does it mean when Irenicus lost? That society is stronger than the individual? That birthright is stronger than whatever challenger? How are these themes explored besides he mouthing off?

That's up to you and me to decide. It is not a propaganda piece. In Greek tragedy the actors are right and wrong at the same time (I am quoting Hegel's opinion on Greek tragedy here, but don't ask me to trace the quote), and the point is to make us think. But maybe we don't want to think, that's OK too, and then we have a cool story to watch.

 

[santino27]

Watching the stream now. Lot of apologies from Josh.

 

[fantadomat]

Themes are only themes if they go somewhere. If we go by your interpretation, what does it mean when Irenicus lost? That society is stronger than the individual? That birthright is stronger than whatever challenger? How are these themes explored besides he mouthing off?

That's up to you and me to decide. It is not a propaganda piece. In Greek tragedy the actors are right and wrong at the same time (I am quoting Hegel's opinion on Greek tragedy here, but don't ask me to trace the quote), and the point is to make us think. But maybe we don't want to think, that's OK too, and then we have a cool story to watch.

Lacrymas,it means that anarchy beats individualism and society. After all he lost to the player,a god child that could turn in a monster and do whatever he likes. The player most certainly doesn't depicts society. The player is mostly a chaotic force of nature. Also individualism can't exist without society.

 

[MajorMace]

Ashen Maw is incredibly dull and short. The fact it ends on such a lame "climax" is the cherry on the cake.
It really is very stupid. I guess I wasn't prepared, even knowing that journos themselves found it bad.
God dammit. Xoti made it worse.
Jesus.
Wow.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Why is that important though, it not being deliberated by destiny?

Random minor stuff happens, that's life.

Because it's a waste of time in a fictional constructed narrative. Nobody will ever give you the advice to write about random disconnected events that don't matter to something within the closed plot system as a whole. And that's why it's illogical in the context of writing.

At the end of the day it's just the tutorial. Candlekeep in Chapter One of BG isn't that great either. You could get rid of that whole area and just start with Gorion's murder and not much would be lost. But the tutorial section has to do stupid things in order to teach neophytes how to play.

 

[Lacrymas]

That's up to you and me to decide. It is not a propaganda piece. In Greek tragedy the actors are right and wrong at the same time (I am quoting Hegel's opinion on Greek tragedy here, but don't ask me to trace the quote), and the point is to make us think. But maybe we don't want to think, that's OK too, and then we have a cool story to watch.

I was going to go on a rant about the opinions of longwinded and boring 18th century spastics, but I decided it's besides the point. The point being that you think there are themes that are explored by Irenicus. How are they explored? Let's say we go the wishy-washy, Hegelian "it's about the conflict of two equally valid points", where does that leave us and how do we make up our individual minds about this? We saw that Irenicus loses, yet he's the stronger challenger and the individualist who goes against society to become a god, what is the second, equally valid point here and how do the exploration of themes lead us to it?

At the end of the day it's just the tutorial. Candlekeep in Chapter One of BG isn't that great either. You could get rid of that whole area and just start with Gorion's murder and not much would be lost. But the tutorial section has to do stupid things in order to teach neophytes how to play.

The difference is that Candlekeep is optional, you can go straight to Gorion and leave. The damning thing is the linearity of PoE's beginning. Video gaming is the only media in existence that can justify disconnected elements, and it justifies it by its nonlinearity. Whatever can't be skipped is still subject to the same laws.

 

[Jason Liang]

It is good to see that i am not the only one that managed to peer through the veil of time wasting shenanigans and see how small the actual content is.

Perhaps they've finished the first dlc already. Obsidian just sold you half a game.

 

[AN4RCHID]

Ashen Maw is incredibly dull and short. The fact it ends on such a lame "climax" is the cherry on the cake.
It really is very stupid. I guess I wasn't prepared, even knowing that journos themselves found it bad.
God dammit. Xoti made it worse.
Jesus.
Wow.

I thought it was pretty cool. Great environmental art, and I actually got a chance to use stealth. It is very short, like many of the dungeons so far.

 

[fantadomat]

I am just watching the stream and somebody asked for radian ships because the sea becomes empty after that hour of hunting ships. It turned out that all those battles were handmaid ,the fuck. Sooo all those 5 crew ships with 12 warriors once boarded is handmade?!

 

[fantadomat]

It is good to see that i am not the only one that managed to peer through the veil of time wasting shenanigans and see how small the actual content is.

Perhaps they've finished the first dlc already. Obsidian just sold you half a game.

That is what i am preaching for the past 100 pages while obsidian shils just say how i am lying and the game is huge and filled with content.

 

[Pizzashoes]

Marty Sue comment was how he continuously succeeds and cucks you at every turn effortlessly (soloing the Cowled Wizards?)

He is one of the greatest elves to have ever lived in Faerun. His elven magicks he accrued over his long life are far superior to the pathetic (and useless) magicks of lesser-lived vermin. Gary Stu? No, he's an elf.

 

[Trashos]

I was going to go on a rant about the opinions of longwinded and boring 18th century spastics, but I decided it's besides the point. The point being that you think there are themes that are explored by Irenicus. How are they explored? Let's say we go the wishy-washy, Hegelian "it's about the conflict of two equally valid points", where does that leave us and how do we make up our individual minds about this? We saw that Irenicus loses, yet he's the stronger challenger and the individualist who goes against society to become a god, what is the second, equally valid point here and how do the exploration of themes lead us to it?

The way they are explored is that the audience is presented with a story and you can choose sides if you wish or even suggest different paths that were not taken. Remember that Greek tragedy was a thing before the "readily available answers" of monotheism. I see it as a study of situations where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. They had more questions than "answers" back then.

If I understand what you mean by "the second, equally valid point here", it is that Irenicus could have stayed in his corner as a good boy, respecting his gods and serving his people at the expense of his inner drives. (A Christian would say that sometimes the best you can do is bear your cross with dignity)