KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

[Zombra]

Reasonable ammo limitations based on carrying capacity and weight avoid the degenerate absurdity of "box stratting" Newfoundland (XCOM EW) and a guerilla force of scavengers farming Lost for over an hour (WOTC) in an organic manner, compared to the more extreme solution of capping or removing kill XP altogether (LW2)

You can also just not play games like an asshole.

Fuel and range limitations are a major part of the OpenXcom air game and create interesting decisions about when, where, and how to engage enemy craft. Obviously this has less significance in titles with a highly simplified air game (XCOM EU/EW) and no meaning in ones without any air game at all (XCOM 2)

I didn't say anything about eliminating range limitations. I said it's not good gameplay to have to remind your flight crew to put fuel in the tank.

 

[PanteraNera]

Reasonable ammo limitations based on carrying capacity and weight avoid the degenerate absurdity of "box stratting" Newfoundland (XCOM EW) and a guerilla force of scavengers farming Lost for over an hour (WOTC) in an organic manner, compared to the more extreme solution of capping or removing kill XP altogether (LW2)

You can also just not play games like an asshole.

Huh? What do you mean by that?

Fuel and range limitations are a major part of the OpenXcom air game and create interesting decisions about when, where, and how to engage enemy craft. Obviously this has less significance in titles with a highly simplified air game (XCOM EU/EW) and no meaning in ones without any air game at all (XCOM 2)

I didn't say anything about eliminating range limitations. I said it's not good gameplay to have to remind your flight crew to put fuel in the tank.

Can second that, nowadays games should do that automatically. Same with ammo/inventory-management there should be presets the player can alter or create and the game refills the stuff that gets used.

 

[Galdred]

One of the most absurd things in playing 2012/2016 is soldiers never running out of new magazines and amassing piles of corpses at their feet. PP's lack of inventory might end up the same way.

I'm a bad person, but I am completely OK with this. I want to press one button at the beginning of the game labelled [TRAIN ALL YOUR SOLDIERS TO PACK PLENTY OF AMMO] and then have them do it every time. I also don't want to have to tell them to put gas in the Avenger before flying out to a crash site.

Yes, you are a bad person.

Reasonable ammo limitations based on carrying capacity and weight avoid the degenerate absurdity of "box stratting" Newfoundland (XCOM EW) and a guerilla force of scavengers farming Lost for over an hour (WOTC) in an organic manner, compared to the more extreme solution of capping or removing kill XP altogether (LW2)

Fuel and range limitations are a major part of the OpenXcom air game and create interesting decisions about when, where, and how to engage enemy craft. Obviously this has less significance in titles with a highly simplified air game (XCOM EU/EW) and no meaning in ones without any air game at all (XCOM 2)

Kill XP has no place in a tactical game anyway. XP should come from training and mission XP. Soldiers should focus on their mission, not on getting a kill XP. How often do special forces take a detour to get more XP IRL? It is weird to complain that nuXCOM is too gamey, and want XP for kill.

 

[PanteraNera]

Kill XP has no place in a tactical game anyway. XP should come from training and mission XP. Soldiers should focus on their mission, not on getting a kill XP. How often do special forces take a detour to get more XP IRL? It is weird to complain that nuXCOM is too gamey, and want XP for kill.

I liked what Jagged Alliance 2 did, and X-Com, stats getting raised by use. Also I liked the weapon familiarization-system in Silent Storm.

 

[Destroid]

The ragtag army look was beautiful, logical, coherent and organic. Space marin-ish is not.

PP should at least limit the Space Marine aesthetic to the end of the tech tree.

Aren't they supposed to be another faction?

Here is more recent concept of PP troopers.

That kinda stuff might work later in the tech tree, so PP would start as a rag-tag band and eventually reach those sleek power armours.

They look quite a lot like Infinity concepts.

https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/yu-jing-concept-compendium.311/

 

[PanteraNera]

regarding the inventory-system, it will be in the Backer Build (One) source: latest dev-blog

Also some tidbits from discord regarding the Backer Build:

here some tidbits about the current state of the game:

So the game is after two years of development with nine more months of development-time left (if they would release on new year) still in pre-alpha? Hm.

Also they are going to be on EGX, they will show an improved demo of what they had shown on the PC Gamer Weekender:

Again, what puzzles me is this, between PC Gamer Weekender and EGX are two months of development time and it is "unlikely" that they will add a class that is being worked on for quiet some time (since approximately end of last year). Remember they wanted to get the technician in for the PC Gamer Weekender.

I am really looking forward for the Backer Builds as than there is less room for the speculation I am doing and we can actually see how quickly the game progresses in development. At least I hope so.

 

[ArchAngel]

I might be more about priority, backer build > spending time on finishing technician.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

Kill XP has no place in a tactical game anyway. XP should come from training and mission XP. Soldiers should focus on their mission, not on getting a kill XP. How often do special forces take a detour to get more XP IRL? It is weird to complain that nuXCOM is too gamey, and want XP for kill.

I liked what Jagged Alliance 2 did, and X-Com, stats getting raised by use. Also I liked the weapon familiarization-system in Silent Storm.

if only it had worked. use a rifle for your life, touch a gun and suddenly you forget everything.

 

[disposable]

OCD mode on: I hate that New Jericho mech posted a couple pages back.
I mean look at this silly thing, it's a toy robot dog with its ass part cut off:

Spoiler

Even if it didn't look so weird it doesn't make much sense to make the pilot a good target by putting him high in a cabin with windows.
OK I know, it's a game so things like this don't really need to make sense but if you're making a game with gritty aesthetics you could at least try to make your robots look kinda serious.
Maybe this form was dictated by intended gameplay- with devs trying to make actual projectile trajectories matter maybe a well placed shot could take out the pilot leaving the vehicle mostly untouched.
I don't know, either way I find this thing to be way sillier than it needs to be.

Now I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, and this is pretty hopw roewur, but I tried to make it look a bit more believable.

Spoiler

Cockpit moved to a fully enclosed capsule in the back, remote optics instead of windows. Lower profile means smaller target and the pilot is a little better protected, at least from frontal hits. Easier and safer for driver to escape from the back if the bot gets disabled.

However I'm a filthy possibly decline enabling casual so it's possible I just don't "get" their original design if it's a reference or tribute to some old cult classic mechs.

 

[PanteraNera]

if you're making a game with gritty aesthetics

If you check out the latest concepts, screenshots and the PC Gamer Weekender video, you will find out that this unfortunately seems to be not the case anymore, they seem to go XCOM-style / generic space marine style now.

Wow, nice editing skills, also I like your version way better!
Would actually recommend you posting it on discord, if not the following had happened:

discord

Lt.Hargrove had posted "feedback" regarding the Mech on reddit and asked UV how it feels being patronized by ravenous fans.

*edit* also contrary to what UV says, I just do not get the feeling at all that they value feedback and/or criticism.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

if you're making a game with gritty aesthetics

If you check our the last concepts, screenshots and the PC Gamer Weekender video, you will find out that this unfortunately seems to be not the case anymore, they seem to go XCOM-style / generic space marine style now.

Wow, nice editing skills, also I like your version way better!
Would actually recommend you posting it on discord, if not the following had happened:

discord

Lt.Hargrove had posted "feedback" regarding the Mech on reddit and asked UV how it feels being patronized by ravenous fans.

*edit* also contrary to what UV says, I just do not get the feeling at all that they value feedback and/or criticism.

I've already shared disposable's design with the team.
Despite what you might think, feedback is evaluated. But imagine you're trying to create something, a project where you already have plans for how things are going to work and interact, but you've got a thousand people all shouting different directions/ideas/instructions at you. A lot of the time, things that people ask for just don't mesh with the desired end result. You can't design a game via armchair committee. But I do still feed ALL feedback back to Julian and the team. I even fight for a lot of stuff myself. Sometimes, things get tested to see how well they work out.

For example, we're currently testing how the game plays with allowing multiple shots (TUs allowing).

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

This discordant voices "screaming" different things phenomenon seems to be common with crowdfunded gaming projects that gather money without having playable demo for public.
Completely natural: people give money for vision that they form from available pitch material and perhaps rumours that form around it, then it starts to look that whatever image they've had isn't going to be the one that the product is going to be. Naturally they'll get worried.

 

[Shog-goth]

but you've got a thousand people all shouting different directions/ideas/instructions at you

At least in this topic the criticism is crystalline clear and we're all shouting in the same direction: too many changes from the FIG prototype and artwork, too little X-COM and too much XCOM.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

but you've got a thousand people all shouting different directions/ideas/instructions at you

At least in this topic the criticism is very clear and we're all shouting in the same direction: too many changes from the FIG prototype and artwork, too little X-COM and too much XCOM.

Again though, what was shown in the Fig campaign was marked as concept - and concepts do change. An X-Com clone was never promised and how close to X-Com/XCOM people feel it should or shouldn't be is only a matter of opinion. The fact is, the vast majority of our backers are still more familiar with XCOM than the OG X-Coms. Mechanically, we're still closer to X-Com than XCOM - especially if the multiple shots get in.

 

[ArchAngel]

but you've got a thousand people all shouting different directions/ideas/instructions at you

At least in this topic the criticism is crystalline clear and we're all shouting in the same direction: too many changes from the FIG prototype and artwork, too little X-COM and too much XCOM.

Who is this we? There are only 2-3 vocal people here complaining about that. And only because you all didn't understand the Fig pitch.

 

[PanteraNera]

Who is this we? There are only 2-3 vocal people here complaining about that. And only because you all didn't understand the Fig pitch.

Dude seriously learn to count. Review the last twenty pages and look for yourself.

 

[Shog-goth]

Again though, what was shown in the Fig campaign was marked as concept - and concepts do change.

Imo when you ask for money on the basis of these concepts you shouldn't make a revolution but, in case, an evolution of the same. You have upset almost everything about aesthetics but this was very important for a lot of people.

An X-Com clone was never promised and how close to X-Com/XCOM people feel it should or shouldn't be is only a matter of opinion.

Again: nobody asked for an X-COM clone. This is a stretch.

The fact is, the vast majority of our backers are still more familiar with XCOM than the OG X-Coms.

Do you have some facts supporting this affirmation? I'm not so sure, and If you are only betting on this at the end you could have some bad surprises.

 

[ArchAngel]

Who is this we? There are only 2-3 vocal people here complaining about that. And only because you all didn't understand the Fig pitch.

Dude seriously learn to count. Review the last twenty pages and look for yourself.

I did. I am still right.

 

[Zombra]

Reasonable ammo limitations based on carrying capacity and weight avoid the degenerate absurdity of "box stratting" Newfoundland (XCOM EW) and a guerilla force of scavengers farming Lost for over an hour (WOTC) in an organic manner, compared to the more extreme solution of capping or removing kill XP altogether (LW2)

You can also just not play games like an asshole.

The whole point of the linked Sawyer essay is that game design and mechanics that incentivize playing like an asshole are poor design and should be avoided.

You (and he) are quite right of course. I was being pretty glib there. Giving players infinite ammo and an infinite xp well is practically telling them to farm. I do still say that micromanaging soldier ammo supplies is busywork akin to tying their shoelaces for them. Yes it's possible for there to be a compelling gameplay outcome like one guy running out of ammo and another guy making a dramatic run across the battlefield to resupply him ... but in my actual experience, these moments of interest are vastly, vastly overweighed by inventory tedium. It's just not interesting to me to ask the question "What if this guy runs out of ammo?" over and over again, because 99+% of the time the answer is going to be "I'll make sure he has plenty then" and that will completely solve the problem. I think there are solutions to prevent farming that do not involve dragging and dropping little pictures of bullets onto little boxes over and over after every fight, adding up to hours of my life.

 

[Mustawd]

but you've got a thousand people all shouting different directions/ideas/instructions at you

At least in this topic the criticism is crystalline clear and we're all shouting in the same direction: too many changes from the FIG prototype and artwork, too little X-COM and too much XCOM.

Who is this we? There are only 2-3 vocal people here complaining about that. And only because you all didn't understand the Fig pitch.

Seriously. The three people ITT who didn’t read the fig pitch just need to stfu about “muh deception”.

It’s getting..no, it’s gotten old.

 

[PanteraNera]

I've already shared disposable's design with the team.
Despite what you might think, feedback is evaluated.

I believe you, I also believe that you are an honest guy.
Let me word it differently, whenever I see someone criticizing something on discord, you seem to be very defensive. It is not appreciating. Also there is no direct feedback. By no means I am saying that you have to. Only consider how it feels for potential customers or Backers.

Also stating that you think that crowdfunding is part of the problem while working for a crowdfunded project is, questionable to say it politely.

But imagine you're trying to create something, a project where you already have plans for how things are going to work and interact, but you've got a thousand people all shouting different directions/ideas/instructions at you.

Than share these plans, make people understand.
See with me I still have not put my money into PP as I still have no fucking idea were the ride is going. And I suck in all the information I can, that is why I joined discord (never had been on discord before) because I was excited about the game and wanted more information. Than I spotted inconsistencies, but as I had read up on the whole discord before, I would not address them on discord as it didn't felt like it would be appreciated there.

Be not mistaken, discord is your turf, you are the community manager, people respect your position and probably want to be on good terms with you to get information. RPGcodex is the opposite, it can be a reality check. I would never talk on discord like I talk here. And I am pretty sure others do so as well.

A lot of the time, things that people ask for just don't mesh with the desired end result. You can't design a game via armchair committee.

Absolutely agree on that.
Also as I have stated in this thread I understand now that I had a wrong idea of what PP will become, I made wrong assumptions. I think if you were to communicate more specifically / in detail there would be less room for wrong assumptions. You can't reverse the Fig campaign. You do not have to feel for people that gave their money because they made wrong assumptions, but figure out how you would feel if you were them. You don't have to be emphatic, but if you decide to do so I believe you could at least get some of them back onto the boat.

But I do still feed ALL feedback back to Julian and the team. I even fight for a lot of stuff myself. Sometimes, things get tested to see how well they work out.

For example, we're currently testing how the game plays with allowing multiple shots (TUs allowing).

That is fantastic, but how should we know about that, if it is not communicated?
And yes, you said you are testing it, that does not mean that it will be in.

Still consider this as well, if you always say "is just concept" and "might be changed" or "is not final" it gets a little silly and worrisome as there is nine more months of development left, when do things start to get finalized?

Again though, what was shown in the Fig campaign was marked as concept - and concepts do change.

Actually I tripple checked that, were did it say it is just concept, were did it say that you will redo most/all of the graphics for tripple A graphics. Please show me, I honestly couldn't find it.

An X-Com clone was never promised and how close to X-Com/XCOM people feel it should or shouldn't be is only a matter of opinion.

True, sadly it was never stated in detail what the X-Com/XCOM ratio would be.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

I was going to also use X-Piratez as example of well done ammo scarcity/inventory management.

You run into situations where you have used AT munitions that your gals carry and must scavenge/resupply from ship/retreat because there is still that one armoured car roaming around.

 

[PanteraNera]

Seriously. The three people ITT who didn’t read the fig pitch just need to stfu about “muh deception”.

It’s getting..no, it’s gotten old.

Feel free to ignore me than.

 

[Shog-goth]

Seriously. The three people ITT who didn’t read the fig pitch just need to stfu about “muh deception”.

It’s getting..no, it’s gotten old.

Feel free to ignore me than.

Count me in, too. And I wouldn't speak of "deception" but rather of "well-played ambiguity".

 

[PanteraNera]

Who is this we? There are only 2-3 vocal people here complaining about that. And only because you all didn't understand the Fig pitch.

Dude seriously learn to count. Review the last twenty pages and look for yourself.

I did. I am still right.

So who are those 2-3 people ?
Also would you say that everyone beside these 2-3 people are without a doubt behind the success-story that PP is?
How many people itt you would say have doubts?
And what is with the other people that bro-fist the critical messages of these 2-3 people? What would you consider them?