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Editorial Josh Sawyer on the World Cup and degenerate gameplay

Infinitron

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Tags: J.E. Sawyer

It might not surprise you to learn that Obsidian Entertainment's Josh Sawyer belongs to that special breed of Americans who are familiar with soccer football. In a new post on his blog, Josh illustrates the connection between the rules of the World Cup and one of his favorite game design topics, "degenerate gameplay".

This post is about game design. Just bear with me.

In the 1982 World Cup Group stage, the West German and Austrian teams found themselves in an odd situation. With the Algeria-Chile match already played, the West Germany-Austria meeting would be the final match of Group 2. Based on the point spread of all four teams in the group, West Germany and Austria knew exactly what results would allow both to advance: a marginal (1-2 goal) West German victory. After West Germany scored in the first half, both teams settled into what was effectively pantomime. For the remainder of the 90 minutes, they politely passed the ball in their respective halves of the field, opponents occasionally making halfhearted challenges - but no real scoring attempts.

The strategy was transparent to everyone, from the announcers to the angry crowd. Though popular culture condemned the match with names like Nichtangriffspakt von Gijón (Non-Aggression Pact of Gijón) or, even more pejoratively, the Anschluß, it ultimately allowed both teams to progress out of the Group stage. West Germany made it all the way to the final.

To half-solve the problem in subsequent World Cup Group stages, FIFA scheduled the final two matches for any given Group to take place concurrently. In the case of West Germany-Austria, it would have prevented the teams from building a strategy based on the outcome of Algeria-Chile. However, FIFA didn't really fix the underlying issue, which was the design of how teams accumulate points in Group and how those points determine who advances out of Group. And now, on Thursday, June 26th, it's possible we could see a repeat of the Non-Aggression Pact of Gijón at Pernambuco, Brazil, when Germany faces USA. As in 1982, due to the point spread between Germany, USA, Portugal, and Ghana in Group G, both Germany and USA will advance in the event that they draw - regardless of the results of the Portugal-Ghana match happening simultaneously. Given the widespread condemnation of what occurred at Gijón in 1982, it's unlikely to happen again, but nothing in the rules would prevent it.

When designing the rules for any challenge-based game, regardless of the form it takes, it's important to consider how the structure of the rules may promote working against the spirit of the game. What designers allow players to do may inadvertently reward behavior that even the players themselves find to be boring and unenjoyable. If these behaviors are advantageous enough, players will gravitate toward them with increasing frequency until they become the de facto "correct" tactics and strategies for play. One of the most commonly-discussed features that produces this effect is save scumming. Being able to save and load your game at any time is extraordinarily valuable for players, if simply for convenience. However, the way save/load works in conjunction with other mechanics can strongly promote reliance on save/load to overcome difficult situations.

As an example, many role-playing games use virtual dice to "roll" a check when attempting to overcome a single obstacle, such as a locked door. In such cases, the player typically has one "try" on any static obstacle. In practice, they effectively have as many tries as they want as long as they are patient enough to reload. This type of interaction doesn't test players' skills in any new way, it doesn't ask players to attempt any different tactic, and given the "one try" system the designers put in place, it seems to go against the spirit of what the designers were trying to accomplish. While players love succeeding at overcoming obstacles, the percentage who love doing it via save/load is probably very low. Even so, that's what the game's design promotes doing for the best outcome.

By writing all of this, I have no intention of placing any blame or fault on the players. In challenge-based games, designers present obstacles and create the rules and tools for overcoming those obstacles. Players can hardly be faulted for finding and taking advantage of shortcomings in how the systems interact. In the aftermath of Gijón, both teams had to deal with the anger of World Cup fans - especially fans of the Algerian team, who had been denied a chance at moving on due to the West German/Austrian collusion. And there is no doubt that the players who suited up and went on the field that day did not spend their young lives dreaming of strategic pantomiming. Still, FIFA's rules promoted that behavior - and still promote similar behavior. A repeat of Gijón at Pernambuco would produce justified howls of outrage. Still, a paraphrase of the old maxim applies: don't hate the players, hate the game design.
By the way, other than a couple of Ars Magica-related posts from earlier this year, this is the first post on Josh's blog since late 2012. I wonder if this newfound enthusiasm for blogging can tell us anything about the development status of Pillars of Eternity.
 

abnaxus

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Why so much posturing?

idfUsqW.png


:kwafuckyeah:
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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So, save scumming is bad and systems that allow or promote abuse are bad. While I can agree with that I can't help but wonder.. Is PE still planned to have that magical, bottomless stash that you can insta-warp tons of loot to so you can sell it when convenient?
 
Unwanted

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Sawyer is the man.

"So, save scumming is bad and systems that allow or promote abuse are bad."

Yes. I've been saying this for years now.
 
Unwanted

CyberP

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And I've used football to make my point long before, in addition to other related points that Sawyer doesn't make mention of here.
 

mondblut

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Football is a degenerate game. The teams are not properly balanced.

does not scale to your level...

And classes, they are totally fucked up. Strikers are doing all the damage, while defenders are standing prone and twiddling their thumbs. And the goalie? Who the fuck would ever want to play as the goalie? They are having no fun at all!
 

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Is PE still planned to have that magical, bottomless stash that you can insta-warp tons of loot to so you can sell it when convenient?
Yes. This discourages the degeneracy of storing loot in containers and going back and forth to sell it all, with the bonus of balancing merchant prices with the assumption that you're picking up and selling all the things.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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Is PE still planned to have that magical, bottomless stash that you can insta-warp tons of loot to so you can sell it when convenient?
Yes. This discourages the degeneracy of storing loot in containers and going back and forth to sell it all, with the bonus of balancing merchant prices with the assumption that you're picking up and selling all the things.

How is forcing people to engage in the collection, warping to magic remote stash and sale of every broken shield they can find the path to 'balanced merchant pricecs' or improved design? This point in particular is counter-intuitive... it forces people to insta-stash everything and insta-sell everything, and yet the prices reflect the assumption that everyone will do this in the interest of preserving the designer's approach to creating balanced economy? That's not balanced, that's retarded.
 

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How is forcing people to engage in the collection, warping to magic remote stash and sale of every broken shield they can find the path to 'balanced merchant pricecs' or improved design? This point in particular is counter-intuitive... it forces people to insta-stash everything and insta-sell everything, and yet the prices reflect the assumption that everyone will do this in the interest of preserving the designer's approach to creating balanced economy? That's not balanced, that's retarded.
Live with the inefficiency and make hard choices when it comes to buying things then.
 

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Let's not be naive here. RPG players pick up everything that's not nailed down. Even when you do decide to leave some object behind because it's too heavy or whatever, you always mouse over it to see what it is and whether you can, in fact, pick it up. So now you can hoover it into your stash instead.
 

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How is forcing people to engage in the collection, warping to magic remote stash and sale of every broken shield they can find the path to 'balanced merchant pricecs' or improved design? This point in particular is counter-intuitive... it forces people to insta-stash everything and insta-sell everything, and yet the prices reflect the assumption that everyone will do this in the interest of preserving the designer's approach to creating balanced economy? That's not balanced, that's retarded.
Live with the inefficiency and make hard choices when it comes to buying things then.

The answer shouldn't have to be do it or don't have nice things.
 

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How is forcing people to engage in the collection, warping to magic remote stash and sale of every broken shield they can find the path to 'balanced merchant pricecs' or improved design? This point in particular is counter-intuitive... it forces people to insta-stash everything and insta-sell everything, and yet the prices reflect the assumption that everyone will do this in the interest of preserving the designer's approach to creating balanced economy? That's not balanced, that's retarded.
Live with the inefficiency and make hard choices when it comes to buying things then.

The answer shouldn't have to be do it or don't have nice things.

I don't see why not. Fight well, or be killed. Loot well, or run out of money.

That said, I doubt not picking up each and every kobold's rusty short sword and selling it will actually make a dent in your treasury. This is primarily a convenience feature - the balance is a secondary aspect.
 

DragoFireheart

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Weight based inventory system.
No shared bag.
Limit number of items to X amount for each character.
Limit save point to one hub/town/castle
Death results in gold/currency tax (sent back to last check point, everything is same except gold is cut in half and all party members but one need to be revived).

Dragon Quest got it right for the most part and this was back in the 80s.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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How is forcing people to engage in the collection, warping to magic remote stash and sale of every broken shield they can find the path to 'balanced merchant pricecs' or improved design? This point in particular is counter-intuitive... it forces people to insta-stash everything and insta-sell everything, and yet the prices reflect the assumption that everyone will do this in the interest of preserving the designer's approach to creating balanced economy? That's not balanced, that's retarded.
Live with the inefficiency and make hard choices when it comes to buying things then.

The answer shouldn't have to be do it or don't have nice things.

I don't see why not. Fight well, or be killed. Loot well, or run out of money.

That said, I doubt not picking up each and every kobold's rusty short sword and selling it will actually make a dent in your treasury. This is primarily a convenience feature - the balance is a secondary aspect.

Well let's hope not.
 

Roguey

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The answer shouldn't have to be do it or don't have nice things.
By collecting and selling only the most expensive equipment you'll be able to have some nice things. By selling everything you'll also be able to purchase a few more less-expensive nice things.

Furthermooooooooore, you're probably going to be clicking on all the corpses (sometimes they have consumables!) and all the containers anyway. Clicking on "loot all" instead of out of the window isn't some additional drudgery.
 

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