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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

uaciaut

Augur
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
505
While I haven't played it (I will), none of the solutions introduced in JSawyer fixes the lategame.

How does changing max-level to 35, quartering starting hp and loweing hp/level not fix the late game? And how do you speak like you know for sure when you haven't even fucking played it? :))

You're a demi-god way before 35, and at that point HP doesn't matter. Everyone dies in VAT as soon as you see them.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'll lose. We'll see when next I play NV.

This makes me wonder what do people look for in end-game balance?

Do you expect the fights vs end-game opponents at max level to be hard as the mid-game fights vs their corresponding level of opponents and as hard as early game fights? I can think of no game for which this stands true.

Anyway again you're still strong but nowhere near as dumb as a level 50 guy.
 

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
I think you may have missed the hidden point of my post, which is that there's nothing in Josh's balance-centric design philosophy that precludes the existence of enemies that hit you hard.

All of these "Balance? Iz it good or evil?? DISCUSS!" discussions are extremely angels-on-a-pinhead and have little to do with actual difficulty.

Well yeah, while CC system, game mechanics and rules etc. should ideally support encounter design (and vice versa) they're still separate entities.

You can have a game with a complex system but piss easy encounters or a game which is easy to get into but that offers bigger challenge because of competent AI, challenging hand placed encounters, limited resources (not having a healing potion in every barrel and/or not making the player swim in money half way through the game) etc. or any other combination of the two really.
 

Decado

Old time handsome face wrecker
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Dec 1, 2010
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2,565
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San Diego
Codex 2014
Gun Runner's was basically game-breaking in its power. By the end of the game, though, pretty much any character was a murdering machine.

End game balance is a problem that plagues every RPG, and is probably the most consistent problem across all titles and from all developers. Some studios do better than others when it comes to making the end game actually difficult, but most of the time end games are cakewalks.
How is it a problem?

Because the end game becomes stupidly easy, and you are merely going through motions. There is a way to way make the player feel more powerful without making it a cakewalk.
 

Monad

Learned
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
192
Silver Rush

God, I loved how that was done. It is pretty amusing that one of RPG history's best merchants (Silver Rush) and worst murchants (Gun Runners) existed side by side.

What was wrong about Gun Runners?


Well, for one, the setup. A robot in a booth. It looks like shit. It also looks like the a merchant was just thrown there for the fuck of it. It is like how some rpgs, the developers will just throw a random lone merchant somewhere (like before a final fight) to help the players out, not much thought behind it and it is nice. Yet, Gun runners aren't some random after thought merchant, they are one of the most important merchants in the game and will be visited frequently by players. Then you have the factory which has nothing in it. Now, I don't expect to be able to access all the GR inventory, but I do expect to find something nice. I'm sure this was intentional though.


You realize that that was the store front for the headquarters which was directly behind it right?
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,535
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Gun Runner's was basically game-breaking in its power. By the end of the game, though, pretty much any character was a murdering machine.

End game balance is a problem that plagues every RPG, and is probably the most consistent problem across all titles and from all developers. Some studios do better than others when it comes to making the end game actually difficult, but most of the time end games are cakewalks.
How is it a problem?

Because the end game becomes stupidly easy, and you are merely going through motions. There is a way to way make the player feel more powerful without making it a cakewalk.

I wrote about this here: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...nquisition-thread.75304/page-116#post-2962010

It's a recurring feature of many modern games that the enemies you face remain basically the same throughout, while your character gains all sorts of powers and becomes unstoppable. One of the strengths of the Infinity Engine games is that they never seemed to run out of new, wacky and powerful enemies to throw at you, and the symmetrically applied D&D character system helped to ensure that they were truly on par with your characters.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,863
15 minutes
I was imagining something a bit longer (which is strange, 'endgame' doesn't really suggest a length I suppose). I guess because it's the PoE thread, but the IWD's were on my mind. An example of how I really don't like it, IWD: HoW. That final island is melee creature trash that you just roll through with auto-attacks, nothing interesting to challenge the level/gear/spells you're at, until the final room. Compare to vanilla IWD return to Easthaven, like 4 giants to stomp on, then 2 'boss' fights. So shitty nothing fights to stomp on to show you're all powerful, fair enough (though I'd prefer it was done a different way, maybe a creature that was once a 'boss' now comes as part of group fights. IWD2 kind of does it with the half-dragons). Just keep it quick and don't pack a map or two full of it, it's just padding.
IWD didnt really have any personal story to carry it, it had good writing, but There were no personal stakes. it had cool moments, but it never made you give a shit. Combat and encounter design were its strengths and thats all it could play till the very end.
But for example, Far Cry 3 became pretty much trivial when it came to its difficulty at the end. Enemies went from something to fear to something to bully, and it was fitting and it was fun, and it was good. Because the tension didnt come from the combat, it came from everything else. losing and reloading constantly at that stage would have only hurt the flow of the game.
Thats just a extreme example tho, ive got nothing against challenge, but its not the only thing that can make a game fun, so i dont see why its so wrong if the game is lacking in that department for a couple hours, as long as its not the entire bloody game thats easy.

PS: not saying that far cry 3 was hard, but it did have its moments.

Infinitron mmo endgame sucks. mid to late game is usually good tho, but in the endgame you kinda stop growing. This is why new content keeps being added and the cycle keeps repeating itself, because they have yet to find a satisfying endgame that can keep players engaged without the need for power creep.
 

ColCol

Arcane
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
1,731
Silver Rush

God, I loved how that was done. It is pretty amusing that one of RPG history's best merchants (Silver Rush) and worst murchants (Gun Runners) existed side by side.

What was wrong about Gun Runners?


Well, for one, the setup. A robot in a booth. It looks like shit. It also looks like the a merchant was just thrown there for the fuck of it. It is like how some rpgs, the developers will just throw a random lone merchant somewhere (like before a final fight) to help the players out, not much thought behind it and it is nice. Yet, Gun runners aren't some random after thought merchant, they are one of the most important merchants in the game and will be visited frequently by players. Then you have the factory which has nothing in it. Now, I don't expect to be able to access all the GR inventory, but I do expect to find something nice. I'm sure this was intentional though.


You realize that that was the store front for the headquarters which was directly behind it right?


Yeah, I don't feel the headquarters adds to the presentation, especially since it is empty.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,846
I definitely agree that Gun Runners is underrepresented throughout the game, especially when you compare it to Silver Rush, i suspect there were time constraints that prevented them from giving them a larger active part in the game (like the GR part of Mclafferty's quest seems to have no effect on your interaction with them although it feels like it's supposed to).
Nope, working as designed.
http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/2236640114
Because the Gun Runners are such a huge source of gear for players, I wanted to avoid having them be heavily involved in many quests. They were never intended to be a high profile group.

Is he? My impression from his whole "games for people who like games" speech from 2012 is that he's thrilled to finally make a game that is balanced for completionists, essentially. "People who like games" are people who don't skip content.

The fact that people can't be expected to actually play the entire game is among the top causes, if not THE top cause, of dumbing down in AAA games today. It makes them impossible to balance. And we all know that Josh loves balance...
http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/174728434797285631
I try to make games that are enjoyable but not addictive. I want people to be able to pick them up, put them down when they have something more important to do (which should be almost anything), and eventually stop playing entirely.
http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/174785060623392460
Why did you say you want people to eventually stop playing your games entirely? And why are you making RPGs if that's the case, since they're usually lengthy games and made with replayability in mind?
Because there is a world outside that is awesome and terrible and people should engage it most of the time instead of continually retreating from it.

RPGs are long and can have a lot of content, but they don't encourage you sit and play them incessantly. They don't demand that you play them multiple times. And if you do play them multiple times, there's nothing that says you have to do back to back playthroughs. Replayability is a side-effect of non-linear quest design and supporting role-playing in general, not a goal in itself.

Many MMOs are designed to be addictive and actively encourage players to play incessantly -- or close to it. A lot of social games encourage players to play the game at regular intervals. I don't like that. I don't want to make games that cause people to deprioritize other aspects of their lives.

Aaaah, I see the issue. Not "cost legitimate players" as in "fewer will play it", as in "the game will be worse for legitimate players because of that decision." Glad we cleared that up. I presume you agree.
Your use of the term legitimate as a synonym for good threw me off. I suppose that could be possible, but New Vegas was also a step up from 3 in terms of difficulty. Of all the new players who got into it, it seems likely many of them were also reasonably good at playing games.

Because in the choice between retards and people who want to experience what the developers wanted them to, you pick retards?
What Josh wanted you to experience was a vendor who would sell comparable items from merchants you've killed in order to keep the viability of all playstyles and choices roughly equal.

The excuse for a poorly designed late game now is that I played too much content? Are you serious?
http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/190159612983415974
Cruel fortunes conspire to make you advance a character to 50th level.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,443
Location
Copenhagen
Cruel fortunes conspire to make you advance a character to 50th level.

What a lame and empty non-defense. "Hey Fargo, why is Wasteland 2 so superficial?" - "Cruel fortunes conspired to make the choices binary."
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,863
What Josh wanted you to experience was a vendor who would sell comparable items from merchants you've killed in order to keep the viability of all playstyles and choices roughly equal.
Thus making your choice worthless. seems legit.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,846
Thus making your choice worthless. seems legit.
It wasn't worthless at all. You grogs really get hung up on the idea of certain players getting punished for their decisions, it's pretty concerning.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,863
Punishment? heh. How is it a punishment if you are rich and more powerful because you decided to Fuck someone else? i agree that someone else should take over energy weapons trade, i mean, a market space just opened up, and thats how the market works... but giving them the protection of the finger of the DM? Fuck that bullshit.
Itd be better if you could actually take over.
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
I agree with your point generally speaking, but it would also be a costlier game if you could actually take over markets.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,863
I agree with your point generally speaking, but it would also be a costlier game if you could actually take over markets.
Eh, ive seen pleople mod stuff like this in about a month with a 1 man team, its mostly dialogues and scripts. Carefully balancing it so it doesnt break the economy too early and so it doesnt trivialize the game from the mid point onwards is a concern tho.
 

Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
6,395
Update by Josh Sawyer, Project Director

pe-jes-ranger-580.jpg


Welcome! First things first: if you have backed Pillars of Eternity but not yet completed your order on our website, please do so as soon as possible. Even if you have an all-digital order, we need information from you to make sure you get everything you are supposed to. If your backer tier includes an NPC, item, portrait, or other custom piece of content, an early response will make it easier for us to work with you on your designs and preferences. As always, we appreciate that our backers have made Pillars of Eternity possible and we want to ensure that you get your money's worth.

Broken Age

pe-broken-age-580.jpg


As most of you know, our friends at Double Fine have their new adventure game, Broken Age, coming out today. Double Fine and their Kickstarter adventure game paved the way for all of the games that came after - including Pillars of Eternity.
If you are fans of the adventure game genre (or just fans of good games from indie studios), show them some love.
You can find more about it on their website.

Update

pe-ruins.jpg


Things are going well at Obsidian on the Pillars of Eternity team. The artists are putting the finishing touches on the second of our two big cities, Twin Elms, and the environments look fantastic. Our designers are busy implementing narrative and quest content, in some cases returning to earlier areas to fill in cracks and flesh elements out more. The character artists are almost done taking all of our highest-priority creatures to alpha level and are starting to look at the second string of creatures and variants. Animation is right behind them, creating rigs and alpha animations as new creatures come online, and we're finally returning to our main character animations for a second pass. Programming continues to chug away at user interfaces, AI, and zany spells and many other items on our long list of features. In short, we're well past "the hump" and the game is looking and feeling better every day.

Heavy Hitters

In most RPG parties, there's a character type that focuses on dealing death to VIPs in the enemy roster. They are the heavy hitters, the characters who cut enemies down one-by-one with precise, overpowering attacks. We've previously talked about one of our heavy hitters, the cipher. Ciphers alternate between powerful mental attacks and the physical strikes used to power them. They are the only "caster" class that focuses heavily on individual enemies, in large part because their abilities all require an external concentration of soul energy to serve as a power source.

In contrast to the cipher, the rogue and the ranger are more traditional, but just as deadly. Rogues rely on the vulnerability of their enemies to inflict devastating attacks in close quarters. Rangers coordinate their strikes with the help of animal companions, creatures with whom rangers form lifelong bonds. Outside of direct combat, rogues and rangers share a skill emphasis in Stealth and are commonly the sneakiest party members. But while rogues also have a specialization in Mechanics (most often to lay traps and deal with ones placed by their enemies), rangers focus on Survival, which improves the duration of many consumable items. Though the three "heavy hitter" classes have different styles of play with different strengths, they all excel at taking enemies down in the shortest amount of time possible.

In Pillars of Eternity, the designation of a character as a "rogue" signifies their vicious, brutal style of fighting, not a propensity for theft or deception. More than any other class, rogues exemplify the adage that the best defense is a good offense. If fighters are the disciplined, reliable, well-trained units that hold the line, rogues are the shock troops that attempt to break through that line to take out vulnerable units before they can effectively retaliate. When pinned down, rogues can suffer from their weak defenses, but ideally they carry their momentum from one target to the next in short order.

All rogues start with three abilities that allow them to immediately dive into heavy-hitting: Finishing Blow, Reckless Assault, and Dirty Fighting.

  • Finishing Blow (Active) - Full Attack. This ability gains power the more damaged the target is. When the rogue uses a Finishing Blow, he or she makes a full attack at the enemy with his or her current weapons. The attack is made with an Accuracy bonus and does +50% damage if it hits. For every 1% under 50% Max Stamina the target has, the attack does an additional +3% damage. 3/rest.[/*]
  • Reckless Assault (Modal) - In this mode, a rogue's Deflection is lowered but he or she gains a bonus to Accuracy and damage with all weapons.[/*]
  • Dirty Fighting - 10% of the rogue's Hits with any melee or ranged weapon are turned into Crits. This occurs after the initial attack roll is resolved. The resulting shift is displayed in the combat log.[/*]

As rogues advance, they gain access to abilities that allow them to maximize the damage and afflictions they can dish out to their targets. They can also learn a variety of tricks to help them get out of trouble when the going gets tough.

  • Sneak Attack - Sneak Attack applies bonus damage to the rogue's ranged and melee weapon attacks when the target has any of the following statuses: Blinded, Flanked, Hobbled, Paralyzed, Petrified, Prone, Stuck, Stunned, or Weakened. It also applies to any target the rogue strikes with a weapon within the first 2 seconds of combat starting.[/*]
  • Escape (Active) - Escape allows the rogue to break Engagement and safely move away from their current location. The ability must be targeted on open ground to which the rogue has a clear path. When activated, the rogue immediately breaks Engagement and swiftly moves to that location. 1/encounter.[/*]
  • Crippling Strike (Active) - Full Attack. Inflicts extra damage and the Hobbled condition. 2/encounter.[/*]
  • Coordinated Positioning (Active) - You are able to instantly switch positions with one target within 1m. If this is an ally, the switch is automatic. If it is an enemy, the maneuver is an attack against its Reflexes (only succeeds on a Hit or Crit). The switch is immediate and cancels Engagement (if any) on the rogue. 2/encounter.[/*]
  • Adept Evasion - 50% of all Grazes against a rogue's Reflexes are converted to Misses.[/*]
  • Blinding Strike (Active) - Full Attack. Inflicts extra damage and the Blinded condition. 2/rest.[/*]
  • Deathblows - Against any target that is afflicted by two or more of the conditions that can allow Sneak Attack, rogues do additional Sneak Attack damage.[/*]

pe-eder-low.jpg

Resident heavy-hitting rogue, Edér.
Rangers are expert sharpshooters with any ranged weapon. Though they traditionally rely on bows and crossbows, some use firearms or even magical implements. Regardless of their choice of armament, even novice rangers can strike swiftly and leave severe wounds that quickly wear down an enemy's stamina and movement. They are assisted in their efforts by their animal companions, incredibly tough and loyal creatures who share their lives (literally) with their masters. All rangers start with the following three abilities:

  • Animal Companion - The ranger begins the game with (and can name) an animal companion that fights at his or her direction. This companion shares Health and Stamina with the ranger, i.e. if either one is damaged, the same pool is reduced. Both the ranger and the animal companion die if their Health is reduced to zero. Animal companions have high inherent Damage Thresholds that allow them to run interference for their masters.[/*]
  • Wounding Shot (Active) - Only usable when ranged weapons are equipped. The ranger's shot inflicts a continuous damage effect and Hobbles the target. 3/rest.[/*]
  • Swift Aim (Modal) - This mode increases the ranger's rate of fire and reload with ranged weapons at the cost of an Accuracy penalty.[/*]

At higher levels, rangers gain abilities that increase the effectiveness of their attacks and the coordinated use of their companions. By tactically applying the synergistic benefits of the ranger and his or her companion, players can lock down and quickly overwhelm powerful enemies.

  • Defensive Bond - When both the ranger and his or her animal companion are subjected to an area effect attack, they gain +15 to the targeted defenses.[/*]
  • Marked Prey (Active) - The ranger can designate a single target as his or her marked prey. He or she and his or her animal companion have a damage bonus against that target until combat ends. Once designated, the target cannot be switched. 1/encounter.[/*]
  • Predator's Sense - The ranger's animal companion gains a damage bonus on any creature suffering from a continuous damage effect, including those caused by Wounding Shots.[/*]
  • Stalkers' Link - When a ranger's animal companion Engages a target, the target is automatically Flanked if the ranger has a ranged weapon equipped and is opposite the target.[/*]
  • Takedown (Active) - The ranger's animal companion will knock the target Prone with a Fortitude attack. 2/encounter.[/*]
  • Defensive Shooting - When using ranged weapons against any target that is Engaging the ranger, the ranger's Accuracy is increased by 20 and his or her Interrupt rating is improved by one category.[/*]
  • Master's Call (Active) - When the ranger issues Master's Call, his or her animal companion will immediately move back to him or her at increased speed, gaining a +20 bonus to Concentration and defenses against Disengagement Attacks. Any enemy it comes within 1m of is automatically attacked (Fortitude) and knocked Prone if the attack succeeds. 2/rest.[/*]

In addition to the abilities listed here, ciphers, rogues, and rangers can gain access to additional class-specific abilities as well as Talents. Some Talents can be taken by any character, but many are class-oriented and can be used to distinguish or emphasize one character from another. One cipher's Talents may emphasize his or her physical attacks while another's makes his or her Focus use more efficient. One rogue may maximize his or her advantage against a specific type of affliction; another may improve the frequency with which his or her offensive abilities can be used. And while rangers can always benefit from improving their marksmanship and special attacks, investing in the durability and abilities of their animal companions can safeguard the ranger against disaster.

Pillars of Eternity's heavy hitters all differ in how they bring the pain to enemies, but we hope you enjoy the concepts and mechanics we've presented here. As always, these are our current designs and implementations, but will be adjusting them in the months to come. We will be doing three more class pair updates in the future: The Leaders of the Band (chanters and priests), The Front Line (fighters and barbarians), and The Mob Rulers (wizards and druids). Let us know what you think of today's update and please vote on which of the three class pairs you'd like to see covered next. As always, thanks for reading and for your continued support.
 

belated

Augur
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
311
Meh, the arches missing the keystones didn't bother me too much, but this one is ridiculous. I mean, wtf is going on there? :D
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Apparently either the ceiling exploded with enough force to push back the rock bits, or it was never closed at all, or it was wood or some more perishable material or it was stolen.... but they left the rest of the arches and floor alone, or it was recently 'cleaned' for some other reason. Maybe it's a tourist site :troll:.
 

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