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NWN 2: mask of the betrayer is out now.

Anthony Davis

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Jedi_Learner said:
I'm sorry Anthony for mocking you. I do have concerns about the gaming industry, but I shouldn't of posted what I posted. And for the rest of you, please, I'm not trolling or calling you stupid for liking Neverwinter Nights II, nor am I trying to gain cool points with you. I like it here at the Codex, but I wouldn't post something in some attempt to be popular.

Sorry again Anthony. Please continue your discussion of MotB everyone, I won't bother this topic again unless I actually have something useful to contribute.

Apology accepted.

We all get passionate about things we feel strongly about.


So I talked with Jeff Husges and Eric Fenstermaker, and it turns out I was wrong about the three endings in MotB (also known as NX1).

There are four endings (without spoilers):

The 'Optimal' Ending

Two 'Neutral' Endings:
  • The 'Martyr' Ending
    The 'Self-Preservation' Ending

The 'Ultimate Evil' Ending

The two neutral endings are ALWAYS available, the other two endings are unlocked based on player actions and decisions.

Anyway, thanks for all the feedback, both positive and constructive. I will try to answer questions as best I can. I apologize also if I missed your question, but this thread jumped big time over the weekend. Please just ask again if I missed it.


Anthony Davis
Gameplay Programmer
Obsidian Entertainment
 

burrie

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Are you certain about the two neutral endings being ALWAYS available? I believe I only had the optimal and 'self-preservation' option available for my last playthrough.
 

Anthony Davis

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burrie said:
Are you certain about the two neutral endings being ALWAYS available? I believe I only had the optimal and 'self-preservation' option available for my last playthrough.

According to Jeff, if you meet the requirements for the 'Optimal' ending, it replaces the 'Martyr' ending.

George Zeits, the lead writer and designer for MotB, felt that those two options were (Martyr and Optimal) were mutually exclusive story-wise.

Anthony Davis
Gameplay Programmer
Obsidian Entertainment
 

sheek

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Sorry I haven't been paying much attention - what is the story in MOTB? I'd be willing to trust you guys that this is a good game but I've hated every FR setting I've seen. I didn't even like Planescape that much
 

sheek

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Oh yeah, the Bioware forums people are the definition of RPG Liberals: giving everybody a second chance, caring about feelings and intention and everything is, like, just an opinion, you know?..

There's no point arguing with them, it's pathological.

Not a bad website by any means, and no I don't "hate" the people who post there (as they'd say), but I wouldn't waste my time trying to discuss anything serious there.
 

Texas Red

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I understand this is off topic but Id really like to have an opinion from a dev. Can you tell us what Obsidian thinks about the messiah of RPGs, TES: Oblivion? What is Obsidian's reaction when something as shallow, generic, mediocre and completely devoid of anything thats supposed to be in an RPG gets 10/10 reviews with opening lines such as "Oblivion is, simply put, one of the best RPGs ever made"(quote from Gamespot's PC review).

When is Anthony going to get his special Obsidian logo avatar to mark his awesomeness over us?
 

burrie

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Anthony Davis said:
burrie said:
Are you certain about the two neutral endings being ALWAYS available? I believe I only had the optimal and 'self-preservation' option available for my last playthrough.

According to Jeff, if you meet the requirements for the 'Optimal' ending, it replaces the 'Martyr' ending.
Well, I have to admit that the martyr-ending wouldn't make much sense, given what you learn when you reach the optimal ending, so it's only logical. Was just just curious to see if I missed something. Cheers. :)
 

Starwars

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Sorry I haven't been paying much attention - what is the story in MOTB? I'd be willing to trust you guys that this is a good game but I've hated every FR setting I've seen. I didn't even like Planescape that much

Spoilers for the NWN2 OC here...

After battling it out with the King of Shadows in the NWN2 OC, as you might know you and your companions get a whole pile of rocks on you as the structure collapses.
In the expansion you wake up far away from the Sword Coast, in a barrow in the land called Rashemen (which is in the east, near Thay if you know about FR geography). Rashemen is a sort of rough land, and spirits are very, er, active there. It's like Conan the barbarian meets Native americans (OK, that was a bit rough but still).

The silver shard that was stuck in your chest in the NWN2 OC has been torn out. Your character discovers that there is a certain hunger in its place, and it is soon revealed that this is a curse you will bear. You then have to find out about the origin of the curse, a potential cure and blablablabla.

It's very good IMO.
 

Anthony Davis

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The Walkin' Dude said:
I understand this is off topic but Id really like to have an opinion from a dev. Can you tell us what Obsidian thinks about the messiah of RPGs, TES: Oblivion? What is Obsidian's reaction when something as shallow, generic, mediocre and completely devoid of anything thats supposed to be in an RPG gets 10/10 reviews with opening lines such as "Oblivion is, simply put, one of the best RPGs ever made"(quote from Gamespot's PC review).

When is Anthony going to get his special Obsidian logo avatar to mark his awesomeness over us?

I don't speak for Obsidian, but I can tell you what *I* thought of the game. I played the PC version of the game:

Graphics and Art Style: A
Music and Sound: A
RPG System: C-
Dialog System: D
Melee Combat: B
Ranged Combat: B-
Toolset and Customization: A+
Main Story: C
Overall Polish: A-
Size of World: A
Quantity of Content: A


Detailed Thoughts (some spoilers)

Positive:
Most memorable moments for include the Dark Brotherhood quest line, which I personally felt was one of the best things about the game and overshadowed the main storyline. The assassination quests were interesting, clever, and unique. I saw the twist coming near the end of the quest line but that did not lessen the enjoyment of it for me.

I do enjoy the sand boxy feel of the game and the game system and the open world nature of the game. I am really impressed by the sheer amount of content in the game. I was able to keep myself entertained for a while just by exploring and killing stuff and experimenting with their physics implementation.

The first time I went through one of the portals to the 'Oblivion' dimension I was kind of creeped out by it. I thought this was neat and different. Also, JUST when I was beginning to think it was kind of repetitive, they threw the 'timed' one at me which at least gave it a sense of urgency.

The game never crashed on me, not once.

I thought the combat was better balanced than from Morrowind. I played Daggerfall too long ago to remember it's combat very well. Melee combat in a FPS style game is not trivial to implement and I think they did a good job with it.


Neutral:
I know a lot of people complained about the level scaling and how the game became too easy, but I never really had this problem. It could be because of my character build was not... optimal, but I felt like I was always getting killed. I had no magic skills tagged, just security, stealth, light armor, blade, athletics, acrobatics, and something else, don't remember.


Negative:
I do not like their RPG rule/game system. I could go into a lot of detail about what I like and do not like about it, but I want to keep this kind of brief.

I do not like their 'wiki' style dialog system, but I can not offer a better solution for the sheer mind boggling amount of content they have. I would love to see more custom designed dialog and skill based dialog choices, but to do so in a game the scope of Oblivion would take YEARS.

The main story line failed to pull me in.



Final Thoughts:
I think I would have had much more fun playing a game like Oblivion multi-player. It just seems like a game where you can do a lot of neat things, but you can't really share it with anyone.

Then again, maybe I'm weird. After all, I beat BG, BG2, and IWD2 all by playing through multiplayer.

I have a true anecdote for you guys. Yesterday I was meeting with a friend, now this is a new friend and he only JUST found out that I worked in the game industry. First thing he asked me was if I had heard of Oblivion. I told him I had, duh. He told to me that normally it is not his type of game, but when he plays it, he just gets pulled in for hours at a time.

That is something to think about. This is a friend of mine who normally would NEVER play an RPG game and he gets pulled in for HOURS.

While it is easy to be disdainful about Oblivion and 'console' games and to be despondent over where you think the future of RPGs are going, I try to be more optimistic about it and view it as gaining more potential converts. Now that my friend has tried Oblivion, he might be more open to a more classically deep RPG game, something he NEVER would have tried on a first attempt.

Anthony Davis
Gameplay Programmer
Obsidian Entertainment
 

Vault Dweller

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The Walkin' Dude said:
I understand this is off topic but Id really like to have an opinion from a dev. Can you tell us what Obsidian thinks about the messiah of RPGs, TES: Oblivion?
Please don't ask such questions in the future. When you want to ask someone a question, think whether or not this person would be comfortable answering this question and the value of the answer to you. Do you really expect him or any other developer to openly state that Oblivion sucked ass (assuming that that's what they think)? So you either get a politically correct answer or make the person uncomfortable. Neither is desirable.

What is Obsidian's reaction when something as shallow, generic, mediocre and completely devoid of anything thats supposed to be in an RPG gets 10/10 reviews...
My point exactly. He can't answer such loaded questions, so don't ask them.

When is Anthony going to get his special Obsidian logo avatar to mark his awesomeness over us?
Done.
 

Anthony Davis

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Vault Dweller said:
The Walkin' Dude said:
I understand this is off topic but Id really like to have an opinion from a dev. Can you tell us what Obsidian thinks about the messiah of RPGs, TES: Oblivion?
Please don't ask such questions in the future. When you want to ask someone a question, think whether or not this person would be comfortable answering this question and the value of the answer to you. Do you really expect him or any other developer to openly state that Oblivion sucked ass (assuming that that's what they think)? So you either get a politically correct answer or make the person uncomfortable. Neither is desirable.

What is Obsidian's reaction when something as shallow, generic, mediocre and completely devoid of anything thats supposed to be in an RPG gets 10/10 reviews...
My point exactly. He can't answer such loaded questions, so don't ask them.

When is Anthony going to get his special Obsidian logo avatar to mark his awesomeness over us?
Done.

Thanks!

I obviously see Oblivion differently than most of the Codexer's do. I also just read the intent of the question and not the ...uhm...RPGCodex 'flavoring', hahaha.

However, as VD points out, that question would certainly never have flown in my engineering statistics class back in college! If you want an honest answer/opinion, you gotta keep the question honest too, at least in my humble opinion.

Anthony Davis
 

Vault Dweller

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Anthony Davis said:
I have a true anecdote for you guys. Yesterday I was meeting with a friend, now this is a new friend and he only JUST found out that I worked in the game industry. First thing he asked me was if I had heard of Oblivion. I told him I had, duh. He told to me that normally it is not his type of game, but when he plays it, he just gets pulled in for hours at a time.

That is something to think about. This is a friend of mine who normally would NEVER play an RPG game and he gets pulled in for HOURS.
Well, the most logical conclusion is that this game is NOT an RPG, hence the enjoyment. We've seen many comments like these. "I usually hate RPGs, but I loved Oblivion!" or "I usually play only shooters, but I loved Oblivion!" That's gotta tell you something.

While it is easy to be disdainful about Oblivion and 'console' games and to be despondent over where you think the future of RPGs are going...
http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=127

"Q: Long time ago, answering a question about the future of RPGs at NMA, you said that they are going "straight to hell" and that "Troika is one of the last pure PC RPG developer in the U.S." How would you answer the same question today?

JE Sawyer: To my knowledge there are no pure PC RPG developers left outside of very small outfits like Spiderweb Software.

Welcome to hell!"

I try to be more optimistic about it and view it as gaining more potential converts. Now that my friend has tried Oblivion, he might be more open to a more classically deep RPG game, something he NEVER would have tried on a first attempt.
I doubt it. Success of games like Oblivion will only lead to more games like Oblivion, and people who enjoyed this type of "RPGs" will not be interested in anything different. Few exceptions apply, of course, but they wouldn't make much difference.
 

sheek

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Starwars said:
Spoilers for the NWN2 OC here...

After battling it out with the King of Shadows in the NWN2 OC, as you might know you and your companions get a whole pile of rocks on you as the structure collapses.
Never made it that far - just played the first fifteen minutes, same as NWN1. Don't know what it is but all those standard D&D settings make me fall asleep.

In the expansion you wake up far away from the Sword Coast, in a barrow in the land called Rashemen (which is in the east, near Thay if you know about FR geography). Rashemen is a sort of rough land, and spirits are very, er, active there. It's like Conan the barbarian meets Native americans (OK, that was a bit rough but still).

The silver shard that was stuck in your chest in the NWN2 OC has been torn out. Your character discovers that there is a certain hunger in its place, and it is soon revealed that this is a curse you will bear. You then have to find out about the origin of the curse, a potential cure and blablablabla.
That sounds potentially interesting, if the setting in that part of FR is really is different than the Neverwinter, Amn, Baldur's Gate I'll give it a chance.

I only bought NWN1 for user made mods, so NWN2 has disappointed me - Chronicles of Conan is the only thing that grabs my attention and that's about 2 hours gameplay.

I tried a couple of others, including something called Solvheil that is getting 9.0+ ratings at the moment... I've spent two hours walking around a boring town, in boring dialogs with stereotyped NPCs, doing FedEx quest, and when I think I've got into the main plot (discover an ancient forgotten city, underneath some farmer's cellar which you were exterminating rats from) I find it's some insanely designed generic dungeon. A bunch of square rooms stuck next to each other, randomly filled with Kobolds and Goblins with the occasional trap and strewn with gold coins and high level wizard scrolls that I can't use (but nothing useful like a leather jerkin, or decent sword, or healing kit).
 

Anthony Davis

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Vault Dweller said:
Anthony Davis said:
I have a true anecdote for you guys. Yesterday I was meeting with a friend, now this is a new friend and he only JUST found out that I worked in the game industry. First thing he asked me was if I had heard of Oblivion. I told him I had, duh. He told to me that normally it is not his type of game, but when he plays it, he just gets pulled in for hours at a time.

That is something to think about. This is a friend of mine who normally would NEVER play an RPG game and he gets pulled in for HOURS.
Well, the most logical conclusion is that this game is NOT an RPG, hence the enjoyment. We've seen many comments like these. "I usually hate RPGs, but I loved Oblivion!" or "I usually play only shooters, but I loved Oblivion!" That's gotta tell you something.

While it is easy to be disdainful about Oblivion and 'console' games and to be despondent over where you think the future of RPGs are going...
http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=127

"Q: Long time ago, answering a question about the future of RPGs at NMA, you said that they are going "straight to hell" and that "Troika is one of the last pure PC RPG developer in the U.S." How would you answer the same question today?

JE Sawyer: To my knowledge there are no pure PC RPG developers left outside of very small outfits like Spiderweb Software.

Welcome to hell!"

I try to be more optimistic about it and view it as gaining more potential converts. Now that my friend has tried Oblivion, he might be more open to a more classically deep RPG game, something he NEVER would have tried on a first attempt.
I doubt it. Success of games like Oblivion will only lead to more games like Oblivion, and people who enjoyed this type of "RPGs" will not be interested in anything different. Few exceptions apply, of course, but they wouldn't make much difference.

Your points could be equally true as well, I was just stating my opinion and anecdotal evidence, and maybe...just maybe, my hopes. Will my friend ever play FO or PS:T? Chances are slim. However before Oblivion, the chances were zero.

I do agree that publisher's will look at the success of Oblivion and look to mimic it. Which increases the chances we would see far more games on the market that are like Oblivion. And in that sense, JES is right, publishers want console titles.

I try to be optimistic and I do believe that when the time is right, the planets are in conjunction, and foretold time has come, we will see the rise of a new generation of RPGs that hearken back to the classics.

Also, RPGs are defined so loosey goosey these days. For me an RPG is:

1. an RPG allows you to first of all, play a Role, duh that's easy and most games that are not RPGs do this anyway. Even Madden (look Ma, I'm a quarterback!).

2. Secondly, and probably more importantly, there is growth of character, which I purposefully leave loosely defined. Character growth in PS:T was completely different than the growth of FO's Chosen One.

3. Thirdly, there is a story with definitive arcs, beats, and pacing. Again, other genres share this, like Adventure games and some RTS games.

4. Reward for growth. This is not always represented in game, though it can be, but often with the player's emotional satisfaction. This is something I think is almost completely unique to RPGs and various RPG-lite games (like WoW, Sims, etc).


Anyway, just my opinion and now that you've read it, it is stuck in your brain forever...buried away.
 
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Anthony Davis said:
Vault Dweller said:
Anthony Davis said:
I have a true anecdote for you guys. Yesterday I was meeting with a friend, now this is a new friend and he only JUST found out that I worked in the game industry. First thing he asked me was if I had heard of Oblivion. I told him I had, duh. He told to me that normally it is not his type of game, but when he plays it, he just gets pulled in for hours at a time.

That is something to think about. This is a friend of mine who normally would NEVER play an RPG game and he gets pulled in for HOURS.
Well, the most logical conclusion is that this game is NOT an RPG, hence the enjoyment. We've seen many comments like these. "I usually hate RPGs, but I loved Oblivion!" or "I usually play only shooters, but I loved Oblivion!" That's gotta tell you something.

While it is easy to be disdainful about Oblivion and 'console' games and to be despondent over where you think the future of RPGs are going...
http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=127

"Q: Long time ago, answering a question about the future of RPGs at NMA, you said that they are going "straight to hell" and that "Troika is one of the last pure PC RPG developer in the U.S." How would you answer the same question today?

JE Sawyer: To my knowledge there are no pure PC RPG developers left outside of very small outfits like Spiderweb Software.

Welcome to hell!"

I try to be more optimistic about it and view it as gaining more potential converts. Now that my friend has tried Oblivion, he might be more open to a more classically deep RPG game, something he NEVER would have tried on a first attempt.
I doubt it. Success of games like Oblivion will only lead to more games like Oblivion, and people who enjoyed this type of "RPGs" will not be interested in anything different. Few exceptions apply, of course, but they wouldn't make much difference.

Your points could be equally true as well, I was just stating my opinion and anecdotal evidence, and maybe...just maybe, my hopes. Will my friend ever play FO or PS:T? Chances are slim. However before Oblivion, the chances were zero.

I do agree that publisher's will look at the success of Oblivion and look to mimic it. Which increases the chances we would see far more games on the market that are like Oblivion. And in that sense, JES is right, publishers want console titles.

I try to be optimistic and I do believe that when the time is right, the planets are in conjunction, and foretold time has come, we will see the rise of a new generation of RPGs that hearken back to the classics.

Also, RPGs are defined so loosey goosey these days. For me an RPG is:

1. an RPG allows you to first of all, play a Role, duh that's easy and most games that are not RPGs do this anyway. Even Madden (look Ma, I'm a quarterback!).

2. Secondly, and probably more importantly, there is growth of character, which I purposefully leave loosely defined. Character growth in PS:T was completely different than the growth of FO's Chosen One.

3. Thirdly, there is a story with definitive arcs, beats, and pacing. Again, other genres share this, like Adventure games and some RTS games.

4. Reward for growth. This is not always represented in game, though it can be, but often with the player's emotional satisfaction. This is something I think is almost completely unique to RPGs and various RPG-lite games (like WoW, Sims, etc).


Anyway, just my opinion and now that you've read it, it is stuck in your brain forever...buried away.
Ahem.

Choices and consequences?
 
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Anthony Davis said:
Futile Rhetoric said:
*snip*
Ahem.

Choices and consequences?

Inclusive with Character Growth (#2). Sorry for not explicitly stating that.
Good, good. I could hear pitchforks being sharpened in the distance.

Also, I've decided that I love MotB. Love. Sadly, I don't have that much time to play nowadays so I'm still stuck in Chapter 2. Still. Love. Except for the combat mechanics, that is -- but I've never liked real-time with pause. I really hope that there's a purely turn-based RPG further along in the pipeline for Obsidian somewhere.

Edit: It is an idle hope, I know.
 

Bossman

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Anthony Davis said:
There are four endings (without spoilers):

The 'Optimal' Ending

Two 'Neutral' Endings:
  • The 'Martyr' Ending
    The 'Self-Preservation' Ending

The 'Ultimate Evil' Ending

Err, question: are you sure there are only four? Because I just took a look in the editor and there are five endings listed.
 

Jaesun

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Futile Rhetoric said:

Jesus cris! He can't comment on that. :P

I'm really looking forward to MotB, but mainly for the PHAT content, for mod building. But I am still looking forward to playing it as well.

Are you moving to the Alien's RPG then Anthony? IF not, I totally understand you can't comment. :)
 

Anthony Davis

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Jaesun said:
Futile Rhetoric said:

Jesus cris! He can't comment on that. :P

I'm really looking forward to MotB, but mainly for the PHAT content, for mod building. But I am still looking forward to playing it as well.

Are you moving to the Alien's RPG then Anthony? IF not, I totally understand you can't comment. :)

I am on the Aliens Team now. The last thing I did for NWN2/NX1 was the 2D portrait stuff (with assistance from Lead Programmer Rich Taylor).
 

Kraszu

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Anthony Davis said:
Neutral:
I know a lot of people complained about the level scaling and how the game became too easy, but I never really had this problem. It could be because of my character build was not... optimal, but I felt like I was always getting killed. I had no magic skills tagged, just security, stealth, light armor, blade, athletics, acrobatics, and something else, don't remember.

Some problems whit scaling is:
-remove some planing, as you can go anywhere, you can't get some skill that you think will be good somewhere and use it later. XP that you can get from simpler quest/enemies is limited. Try Gothic games if you did not yet.
-remove the fun of winning whit somebody that could kick your ass before. Remove the point of progression (getting better then rest).
-Remove "fear" of going to new place, like in Gothic when you go to forest you have to watch out becouse there are monsters there that you can't kill at at low level.

Personally I like the moment where you are weak and you have to watch out, later when you can kill anybody it gets less interesting.
 

VonVentrue

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Futile Rhetoric said:
Anthony Davis said:
Futile Rhetoric said:
*snip*
Ahem.

Choices and consequences?

Inclusive with Character Growth (#2). Sorry for not explicitly stating that.

Good, good. I could hear pitchforks being sharpened in the distance.

Sharpened already, also waiting to burn all heretics at the stake...

Seriously though, I would like to thank Mr.Davis for visiting the Codex and participating in the discussion.

Judging from the opinions expressed by fellow Codexers (whom I hold in high esteem) - the add-on is a significant improvement over the original, and that is fantastic to hear since it means You are paying attention to feedback from Your customers.
I'll be picking up my copy as soon as possible.
 

MasPingon

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I heve never finished NWN2. I almost died from boredom playing it,but you made me want to try this xp pack. *noob question alert* Do I need to finish NWN2 if I want to start MotB?Sorry but I'm to lazy and tired to find it on my own
 
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MasPingon said:
I heve never finished NWN2. I almost died from boredom playing it,but you made me want to try this xp pack. *noob question alert* Do I need to finish NWN2 if I want to start MotB?Sorry but I'm to lazy and tired to find it on my own
Nope.
 

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