Napoleon Total War

[Trash]

You know, if there is a point somewhere hidden in all that butthurt I seem to miss it. Do you people really feel so insecure that you have to act like retards whenever the beloved Motherland is mentioned in less then stellar terms? Never have I seen so much idiocy and blind nationalism as when Russians started whining about their centuries old line infantry on the total war forums and now we get this retardation already. What the fuck?

 

[Serious_Business]

Shut up retard, your lands are made for farming and slaves and your opinion isn't worth anything

(gotta love stupid Codex policy of protecting my right to make retarded non-arguments)

So yeah, I'm all into Napoleon, but the TW games are shit. They're just too fucking easy, it's pathetic.

 

[MetalCraze]

Bull. What's wrong with the game is how unfinished and unpolished it is.

That too.

The battles themselves are as cool as ever. Nothing inherently wrong for a game with the era or the way battles used to be fought back then.

And then those small outposts. Attacking/defending them is much more boring than a huge castle. There is no tactics when it comes to them, raw power wins.

And dumbed down difficulty.

Never have I seen so much idiocy and blind nationalism as when Russians started whining about their centuries old line infantry on the total war forums and now we get this retardation already. What the fuck?

Because god forbid them acknowledging their historical fuck ups - just imagine how much more butthurt could've come from true patriots of Motherland if CA decided to make a campaign in MTW/M2TW where mongols made Russia their bitch and russian ruler basically sold the country to them.

Russian infantry sucked always, russkies were winning by the numbers. I mean they even celebrate their victory over a swedish army that was 3 times smaller than theirs 300 years after the battle took place like it was some kind of fucking achievement.

 

[Quilty]

E:TW siege battles definitely suck. No strategy to them, not to mention the FUUUUUU-worthy moments of seeing your own men leaving the walls and climbing down ropes to bash some guy on the ground.

I never liked siege battles in M2TW when I was the attacker, but I love to defend castles in SS mod for M2TW, especially against multiple enemies. The AI can be pretty smart (and sometimes unbelievably stupid, but hey it's still a TW game) and it looks fuckin' beautiful, which makes it a kind of Stronghold for graphic whores like me.

 

[Hamster]

Because god forbid them acknowledging their historical fuck ups - just imagine how much more butthurt could've come from true patriots of Motherland if CA decided to make a campaign in MTW/M2TW where mongols made Russia their bitch and russian ruler basically sold the country to them.

Someone has to tell skyway that Russia, Ukraine and Belarus were basicaly a one state back than so he is talking about his own country here.

 

[Trash]

And then those small outposts. Attacking/defending them is much more boring than a huge castle. There is no tactics when it comes to them, raw power wins.

Amen. Siege warfare could be done so damn interesting but with the CA games it often feels like a chore. I really hope however that the next patch at least increases the AI and pathfinding for these as promised. I still fondly recall my siege battle in the first unpatched version where the enemy couldn't even scale the walls.

And dumbed down difficulty.

Dumbed down? Hardly. The TW games never were that difficult to me with the only real difficulty coming from expansion campaigns (like the awesome west roman one in Barbarian Invasions) or through mods like Stainless Steel. If one thing the AI in Empire seems rather good compared to its predecessors. It just feels rather unoptimised. Like it pulls a great move one second and then ruins it all the next. Mods have already improved it quite a bit in battles, but a lot of the campaign behaviour seems hardcoded as of now.

 

[MetalCraze]

I still fondly recall my siege battle in the first unpatched version where the enemy couldn't even scale the walls.

I couldn't get my own army on the walls in the unpatched version, so they were basically running around near them, while happily catching enemy bullets.

Dumbed down? Hardly. The TW games never were that difficult to me

You couldn't capture the whole world with ease earlier, now that they've dumbed down the map - you can.

If one thing the AI in Empire seems rather good compared to its predecessors

That's because of dumbed down units - you have like what? Usual gunner infantry, horsemen and cannons. The AI seems harder simply because there is no place for any kind of manoeuver as it boils down to filling enemy rows with bullets while they are still far away and then going melee with the same units - raw power wins.

@Hamster: no they weren't, sorry. Rus was already fractured at that time with moscowites minding their own business.

 

[Hamster]

@Hamster: no they weren't, sorry. Rus was already fractured at that time with moscowites minding their own business.

Thats normal for a medieval state, look up what феодальная раздробленность mean. It happened with Germany for example, it broke down into a bunch of smaller states, who then were brought together again. It was only after parts of Rus spent hundreds of years controlled by foreign countries that one nation was split in three.

Anyway, it was parts of Rus nowadays associated with Ukraine that were hit the hardest, Kiev was burned down, etc. Decline of Kiev led to political and religious power being transfered to northern regions, like Vladimir, and then Moscow. Novgorod was not invaded at all. So, it's very funny hearing about mongols "making us their bitch" from Ukrainian. Well, they did, but unlike you we managed to recover and in turn make them our bitch. :wink:

 

[Trash]

I couldn't get my own army on the walls in the unpatched version, so they were basically running around near them, while happily catching enemy bullets.

Exactly. Nearly returned it to the store when that happened. Still find them as boring as watching paint dry, but mostly because of bugs and bad pathfinding ruins them. I do have some hope they will be improved in the forthcoming patch but even then they will be far from being the most fun or interesting part.

You couldn't capture the whole world with ease earlier, now that they've dumbed down the map - you can.

You could do just that in every TW game. Easily even. It's all about momentum. As soon as you build up a decent economy and industrial base (cities, castles, whatever) you start winning wars and start gaining momentum. I usually stop when I've got half the map since it bores me from that point on. (for a good hard campaign try the templars in MTW2 SS 6.2 on vh/vh. It's brutal.)

That's because of dumbed down units - you have like what? Usual gunner infantry, horsemen and cannons. The AI seems harder simply because there is no place for any kind of manoeuver as it boils down to filling enemy rows with bullets while they are still far away and then going melee with the same units - raw power wins.

Not really. The AI does all sorts of stuff like flanking, all out assaults, artillery duels and even surgical strikes aimed at your general and uses its units and the terrain much more intelligent. I've played all TW's and can by now dream the way the AI will conduct a battle in those games (and even in some of the mods) and how they will most likely respond on your actions. Empire seems to have a lot more variables so far. It's far from perfect but is a good step in the right direction.

 

[Hamster]

Never have I seen so much idiocy and blind nationalism as when Russians started whining about their centuries old line infantry on the total war forums and now we get this retardation already. What the fuck?

Blind nationalism? FFS, people just wanted to have fun with big battles involving line infantry and it turned out that they can't because their faction was the only one in the game that was made a target of developer's historical butthurts.

 

[Trash]

Oh come on. That's like me complaining that the Netherlands is shown as a small nation and that this stops me from easily conquering the world. Get a nice medium sized army together with some other troops mixed in, learn some warfare related technologies and have a general with some stars and you too can easily pwn the enemy.

 

[dragonfk]

@Hamster

You don't think that winter played a major role in russian campaign? Then tell me how is it possible that for as long as there was spring and summer Russians retreated from every battle they could(with the exception of Borodino and Smolensk battles from which they fled after sheding some blood) and only when Napoleon reached Moscow and decided to retreat(18th of October - after first snowfalls), you(russians) finally started to bite back. And whats even more interesting you still couldn't beat him in tactical scheme(Berezina River).

I do not state that Napoleon did not make mistakes, but saying that other factors than courageous russian soldiers are meaningless you make a fool of yourself.

 

[Trash]

The campaign AI is however a mess at this point. No naval invasions outside a theater, broken diplomacy and being an utter dumbfuck on both offensive and defensive. I actually think the patches ruined it even further. In the earlier versions the AI for instance used raiding to good effect. Now it seems they even removed that.

 

[Hamster]

Oh come on. That's like me complaining that the Netherlands is shown as a small nation and that this stops me from easily conquering the world. Get a nice medium sized army together with some other troops mixed in, learn some warfare related technologies and have a general with some stars and you too can easily pwn the enemy.

Did i say that i cannot "pwn the enemy"? No, i was talking about having fun. By that i mean emulating moments from films like Patriot were two lines of soldiers shoot each other and you wonder who will break first. Well, you cannot do it with russian line infantry or cossacks because they will always lose.

 

[Trash]

So fun for you is having a Russian unit in a game who will always win in such an encounter? That sounds like an interesting game mechanic. Seriously though, you are reaching there. TW games have always had stronger and weaker units in them. It's part of what makes the different factions interesting to play.

 

[Hamster]

@Hamster

You don't think that winter played a major role in russian campaign? Then tell me how is it possible that for as long as there was spring and summer Russians retreated from every battle they could(with the exception of Borodino and Smolensk battles from which they fled after sheding some blood) and only when Napoleon reached Moscow and decided to retreat(18th of October - after first snowfalls), you(russians) finally started to bite back. And whats even more interesting you still couldn't beat him in tactical scheme(Berezina River).

I am not pretending to be an expert on this subject myself , but your knowledge about 1812 campaign is on the level of stereotypes. At least read the article in wikipedia.

I do not state that Napoleon did not make mistakes, but saying that other factors than courageous russian soldiers are meaningless you make a fool of yourself.

Other factors include french performing much worse than russians when it came to planning and logistics, not some force majeure excusing their defeat.

after first snowfalls

There is a big difference between -40C temperature germans had to deal with and "snowfalls" that according to you caused such problems for Napoleon, you know.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

Still, you aren't as badass as this:

The charge which continued to the last battery was led by Niegolewski, who survived almost by miracle when Spanish attacked him (he received nine wounds from bayonnettes and two carbine shots to the head).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Somosierra

 

[Hamster]

Oh, sorry, i forgot to reply to you.

Russian line infantry weaker than polish...

You thought your more badass then we are? Dream on.

Well, yes, seeing how we kicked your arse and controled Poland for ~150 years, i kinda thought exactly that.

I especialy like the episode when pompous polish hero Tadeusz Kościuszko confronts Alexander Suvorov, one of the best generals in history, with predictable results

 

[Elwro]

It's not like the Total War series ever had realistic units. Or realistic world, for that matter: I was working on the Polish version of Kingdoms and noticed that in the Teutonic campaign the capital of Poland was set to Poznan (iirc), not Krakow (where it should be in the year the campaign starts). I reported this, but still the game got released without the appropriate change. And guess what? Nobody seems to have noticed :D Judging from the level of butthurt usually displayed by the Polish Total War community I expected a different reaction...

 

[Annonchinil]

-As far as I understand it it was not only winter that caused the degeneration of the Grande Army but the choice of retreating along the same Smolensk road that they used to advance for fear of risking a confrontation with the Russian army deep in the territory.

-The Russian army did not retreat from Borodino after suffering 'some' casualties, they lost 40,000 out 120,000 men and the choice was made to save the army instead of it being destroyed in battle.

-The multi-national make up of the Grande Army was not a mistake. Non French troops like the Italians fought effectively and other armies such as the Anglo-Dutch managed to hold Napoleon at Waterloo despite dubious Dutch quality. Furthermore its rather obvious that not using these troops would have resulted in more French units being used to garrison the positions making the core army even weaker.

-Berezina was a French disaster, not as big a disaster as it could have been but a disaster non the less. Just because a French force manged to survive does not make it a French victory, using that logic I can claim that the rear guard actions of the Russian army were victories too, ones gained with significantly fewer losses.

-Russian people are in no way immune to winter and starvation, the French (and later the Germans) did not plan properly and suffered accordingly, no excuse in blaming very predictable conditions (even if they played a big part).

As for Total War:
-Russian infantry probably were the poorest shots when compared to the other powers but in no way worse than the Poles or the other nations. In fact the only country that had significant musket practice was Britain. When compared to other qualities, such as speed of march, discipline and desertion rates they were at the top or close to it.

-For the period covered in Total War the population of Russia was smaller than that of France, makes no sense to portray them as a 'horde' nation.

-Russian artillery was probably the best in Europe fielding the most guns, the best guns, the best sights, the best horses, reciving some of the best leaders, training and doctrine.

-Its also not possible to mention Russia without talking about its light cavalry. Maybe it was not the most disciplined but it was very effective at its assigned role of screening, raiding and scouting and only the authentic Hungarian Hussars could match it. In 1812 the French never really managed to counter it or break its screens to see the location of the Russian army.

-I would say the big weakness of the Russian army (and several others) were its officers, in particular the difference between being educated in French or in Russian would hinder communication.

 

[Hamster]

-As far as I understand it it was not only winter that caused the degeneration of the Grande Army but the choice of retreating along the same Smolensk road that they used to advance .

It was not a choice, russian army forced them to do it.

-The Russian army did not retreat from Borodino after suffering 'some' casualties, they lost 40,000 out 120,000 men

And France lost just a few thousands less. By losing so much people and failing to destroy opposing army so deep into enemy territory they doomed themselves. Thats why here in Russia we laugh at french describing Borodino as great victory.

-For the period covered in Total War the population of Russia was smaller than that of France, makes no sense to portray them as a 'horde' nation.

Very true, many people just don't know this.

 

[Texas Red]

Comparing Russia and France on equal terms is retarded. One is a direct descendant of Rome and as a consequence enjoyed being the most powerful state in the Medieval period. France had the infrastructure built already in Roman time and Roman administrative centers basically became French cities. When Rome fell, they were already a united force that could take on themselves continental, and indeed sometimes intercontinental, warfare and the required logistics.

Then you have Russia that did not have a benefit of a neighboring civilization like France did. They were also close to the steppe and steppe people are *always* the best military. Thus they were cut off from Europe, and from Rome, Byzantine and the Ottomans and Arabs, and held under the influence of the steppe people. Steppe people do not have a noteworthy culture because of their nomadic life and usually assimilate whatever more culturally dominant region they're raiding, and in the case of Russia, there was none. So of course Russia would be backwards in this case and *of course* they would have to use Scotsmen or whatever.

Looking at history without the proper context is idiocy. You can't say that France was "better" than Russia and that France had a better army.

 

[Hamster]

I know you had good intentions but what you wrote is simply retarded. Please, don't try to defend the Motherland like that.

 

[Annonchinil]

The Battle of Maloyaroslavets was technically a French victory since they had a bridgehead and the town, its just that the casualties were too high. I guess Napoleon could have crossed but he would have to fight a tough battle.

Agree on Borodino, the reason I mentioned it was to counter the statement that the Russian army simply retreated without giving a fight.

And just to show who is best:

"If the French had the firmness and the docility of the Russians
the world would not be great enough for me." - Emperor Napoleon

"The Prussians are excellent troops, but after seeing the Russian foot guard I cannot look at them."- Eyewitness in 1814

"... tell the Emperor that I am facing Russians. If they had been Prussians, I'd have taken the position long ago." - French Marshal Ney in 1813

 

[flabbyjack]

I keep forgetting, do we love or hate Nationalism here at teh Codex?

War, war never changes... NOT!

Is now this...

Total War, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?