Mass Effect: A narratological review

[Freelance Henchman]

The only example of that I can think of, where it sort-of worked, was the "Blight" in A Fire Upon the Deep

From your description it sounds interesting but does the Blight ever hint at what its goal is? Does anyone even ask it? What I was wondering was if it's possible to do a "you can't comprehend" line well. Avoiding it entirely is an obvious alternative and one that's easier to pull off I think.

The Blight just seemed to be your standard all-devouring AI horror from the dephts of time that wants to take over every sentient being and computer that it can possibly reach. It never actually speaks (I think, it's been a while since I read it), which actually made it more frightening and mysterious. A "lol u cant comprehend" line would have been fucking stupid, instead you see just how powerful and alien it is from the descriptions of all sorts of terrible things that happen to anyone who confronts it.

EDIT: You know, I just realized that A Fire Upon Deep also featured a frozen dead guy that gets revived to go on a dangerous mission. Not that novel an idea I guess, but I didn't make the connection to ME2's Project Lazarus until now.

 

[hiver]

Idea that reavers or any other machine intelligence would need the biological stuff or are trying to become biological is stupid and ridiculous.

You guys should write for Bioware.

 

[Freelance Henchman]

AFAIK the point is that the Reapers aren't completely mechanical in the first place, but each Reaper is a nation of minds, each of which was formerly a biological being of the race from which the Reaper was constructed. This was already said by Sovereign in ME1, so its not a retcon either.

 

[hiver]

Was it? First time i hear it.

 

[Freelance Henchman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvrIFIjTGt0

Rudimentary creatures of flesh and blood, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.

There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own, you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign.

Reaper? A label created by the Protheans to give voice to their destruction. In the end, what they choose to call us is irrelevant. We simply are.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. You life is measured in years. In decades. You wither and die.

We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

Confidence born of ignorance. The cycle cannot be broken.

The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom. Organic civilizations rise, evolve, advance. And at the apex of their glory they are extinguished. The Protheans are not the first. They did not create the Citadel. They did not forge the mass relays. The merely found them: the legacy of my kind.

Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it. And you will end because we demand it.

My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness. You cannot even grasp the nature of our existence.

We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization had been eradicated and forgotten. We will endure.

Your words are as empty as your future. I am the vanguard of your destruction. This exchange is over.

The thing about constructed from species isn't here, but he does say basically that each Reaper is a composite mind.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Idea that reavers or any other machine intelligence would need the biological stuff or are trying to become biological is stupid and ridiculous.

You guys should write for Bioware.

I came up with that in one minute, you know. Maybe 40 seconds.

 

[hiver]

Nothing about biological origins there.
Being an artificial or machine intelligence doesnt preclude it being a composite of however minds you want.

It would actually be easier for an Ai, since they dont have - dont need to have an individual body separation like meatbags do and have far more sensory and communication avenues open then meatbags and their five measly senses.

Anyway, the idea that a Ai would hate organics in the first place is stupid and just a projection of usual frame of mind meatbags have most often.
A real Ai probably just wouldnt give a fuck at all.

 

[hiver]

Idea that reavers or any other machine intelligence would need the biological stuff or are trying to become biological is stupid and ridiculous.

You guys should write for Bioware.

I came up with that in one minute, you know.

Im not surprised. Anyway i just had to counter someone gushing over it.

 

[Freelance Henchman]

Anyway, the idea that a Ai would hate organics in the first place is stupid and just a projection of usual frame of mind meatbags have most often.
A real Ai probably just wouldnt give a fuck at all.

I didn't feel that the Reapers "hate" organics so much as they see them like cattle or vermin to be used or destroyed. Like one of us wouldn't be (apart from the WTF effect) too eager to talk to a bunch of cockroaches that suddenly demand you not spray them dead.

 

[hiver]

I think cockroaches suddenly talking would create a lot of attention.

I was talking about general setup of Ai versus organics in the whole game and about that idea generally.

Though from sovereign monologue we can clearly see they do in fact hate or have pretty strong feelings about organic life.

 

[Sceptic]

Dear god I had forgotten how silly parts of Sovereign's speech are. And how many times does he repeat "you cannot comprehaaaaand!!!!111"? 5 times? His dissing of mutations and immediately afterwards saying he is "The pinnacle of evolution" is weird too.

Dear Lord....
I was... entertaining the thought of torrenting it and playing but after this?

Honestly, Shamus is right and the rest of the game is nowhere near as bad as this. Some of the set pieces are pretty interesting too. Combat is boring as fuck though unless you really dig cover-based shooters. I don't and therefore struggled through the ordeal.

It never actually speaks (I think, it's been a while since I read it), which actually made it more frightening and mysterious. A "lol u cant comprehend" line would have been fucking stupid, instead you see just how powerful and alien it is from the descriptions of all sorts of terrible things that happen to anyone who confronts it.

This is exactly what I had in mind. I'm going to have to dig this out and read it now. Thanks for the recommendation.

I can see ME ending with shepard finishing them off with a "Looks like you weren't as complex as you thought", or something like that. In fact, I think it would be nicer than them being actual space horrors but defeated anyway because of the power of friendship and collar grabbing.

ME (and ME2 even moreso) already has enough stupid Bond one-liners but you're onto something and I agree the Reapers being in fact far less powerful than they think would be a nice twist compared to "badass Shepard saves the universe from omnipotent beings". Unfortunately ME1 pretty much set them up as uberpowerful and having weird supernatural powers (indoctrination again...) so I don't know how they'd be able to pull that off even if they wanted to.

reaper stuff

Some nice theories in there but I don't think Bioware's writers are as imaginative.

Would also explain their Cthulhu complex and their "you wouldn't comprehend" drivel - as biological beings already, we couldn't understand that need.

This I don't understand. Consuming other organic things is what each and every biological being does. Why would the reapers think it makes them special? Besides the only advantage of the "giant slurpee of doom" and the idea that they somehow incorporate the people they consume would be if they incorporated their DNA. If that's what they're really after there are much, MUCH more efficient ways to do it than having an entire species on hold for 50,000 years then sending it all over the place kidnapping a hundred thousand people. Cell culture would allow them to do this in frightfully more efficient manner.

You can even go crazy and add some more depth to the Geth beyond them not wanting to be slaves of living beings anymore.

ME2 messed up the geth already with the "heretics" so adding that kind of thing would require substantial rewrites.

 

[Freelance Henchman]

Dear god I had forgotten how silly parts of Sovereign's speech are.

He sounds like Cleve on a bad day.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

This I don't understand. Consuming other organic things is what each and every biological being does. Why would the reapers think it makes them special?

Maybe directly controlling what they pick, instead of letting it go naturally. Makes his "dissing of mutations and immediately afterwards saying he is "The pinnacle of evolution" is weird too" , Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident and We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution a little less weird if you think that by mutations he means random mutations.

Lavos (Main baddie of Chrono Trigger) basically does this: he arrives on earth during prehistoric time, and starts gathering data on every living being, picking the best traits for himself (he ends up with a small, humanoid form). No explanation is given for this (either because he doesn't have any, or because he just didn't bother talking to the party), he's just part of a race who goes around planets doing just that.

Of course, that's assuming they consume things for a reason other than being hungry.

Besides the only advantage of the "giant slurpee of doom" and the idea that they somehow incorporate the people they consume would be if they incorporated their DNA. If that's what they're really after there are much, MUCH more efficient ways to do it than having an entire species on hold for 50,000 years then sending it all over the place kidnapping a hundred thousand people. Cell culture would allow them to do this in frightfully more efficient manner.

As hiver pointed iut, I just blurted that without giving it much thought, so of course there are massive holes on that idea.

ME (and ME2 even moreso) already has enough stupid Bond one-liners

Consistency is important, you know

 

[DraQ]

Most of the imitators epically fail through anthropocentrism.

I think anthropocentrism will undermine any AE plot but ME does take it too far in every aspect.

Anthropocentrism also destroys "lol u canot comprehend" when the AE isn't itself anthropomorphic but has visible fixation on human(oids) - if we are important enough for you to specifically dedicate attention and resources, then yes, we can understand you, you stupid eldritch fuck.

Spoiler

"The planet walks into a bar"

I fell in love with the game straight away thanks to the atmosphere, graphic design and music, but I really got hooked on the plot on Sunder. Then the "drifting in space" scene just after made me realize just how funny the game was.

Anyone who didn't laugh like mad when watching this scene must be some android or an eldritch abomination from beyond.

I feel... mentally violated.

Sorry, I should've warned you to have brain shields up beforehand

I feel their... cold... metallic... ccolld mechanical... mechanical dicks in my... in my brain... I can still feel them... they don't go away... make it stop... dicks... metallic dicks... cold... in my brain... why don't they go away... *whimper*

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. You life is measured in years. In decades. You wither and die.

Then suddenly:

lol lets craete ginormus ogranics d00d for teh lulz

Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it. And you will end because we demand it.

If I was charitable I could try to find some traces of ideas A Time Odyssey here.
However, I am not.
Not after metallic... dicks... in my brain.
I won't forget.
I won't forgive.
They won't go away... cold...

 

[Phelot]

Can you conceive the birth of a world, or the creation of
everything? That which gives us the potential to most be like
God is the power of creation. Creation takes time. Time is
limited. For you, it is limited by the breakdown of the
neurons in your brain. I have no such limitations. I am
limited only by the closure of the universe.

 

[Sceptic]

Maybe directly controlling what they pick, instead of letting it go naturally.

Yeah, but that makes his entire "we are superior" speech pretty stupid since it means the only way they can evolve is by being parasites of biological beings and taking advantage of their random mutations anyway... all they'd be doing is decide which mutations are good enough to stay and natural selection does this already. You know, the more we discuss this the more I'm convinced your idea of "they're not so tough after all" would be the best way to wrap things up in ME3.

Of course, that's assuming they consume things for a reason other than being hungry.

Alternatively I'll settle for this one. I thought it was silly when I played ME1 but it's fucking genius compared to trying to undertand what the hell they think they're doing in ME2.

As hiver pointed iut, I just blurted that without giving it much thought, so of course there are massive holes on that idea.

Yeah sorry didn't see hiver's post at first. And stop punching holes into the plot, it has enough as it is

Consistency is important, you know

At least the ME verse is consistent about something

Anthropocentrism also destroys "lol u canot comprehend" when the AE isn't itself anthropomorphic but has visible fixation on human(oids) - if we are important enough for you to specifically dedicate attention and resources, then yes, we can understand you, you stupid eldritch fuck.

Never thought of it but this is brilliant and another reason why HPL imitators fail epically.

I feel their... cold... metallic... ccolld mechanical... mechanical dicks in my... in my brain... I can still feel them... they don't go away... make it stop... dicks... metallic dicks... cold... in my brain... why don't they go away... *whimper*

However, I am not.
Not after metallic... dicks... in my brain.
I won't forget.
I won't forgive.
They won't go away... cold...

I'm past laughing and feel guilty now

 

[DraQ]

I feel their... cold... metallic... ccolld mechanical... mechanical dicks in my... in my brain... I can still feel them... they don't go away... make it stop... dicks... metallic dicks... cold... in my brain... why don't they go away... *whimper*

However, I am not.
Not after metallic... dicks... in my brain.
I won't forget.
I won't forgive.
They won't go away... cold...

I'm past laughing and feel guilty now

Seriously though, my face hurt after I read the summary, it seemed to have contorted itself into some bizzare, retarded and inhuman mask to reflect the magnitude of my sheer disgust, bewilderment and general mindfuckery I was subjected to.

Trying to imagine the ending almost physically hurt and I'm very happy to never have given ME anything but a passing glance.

I'd to high heavans had I actually bothered to non-remove it, let alone bought it.

 

[DraQ]

really, i can't come up with any theory that would make the reapers' motivations interesting besides the fact that they are dumbfucks. total and utter douchebags who hibernate for thousands of years, wake up, eat people, mess with their DNA, go back to sleep.

They are so... codexian.

 

[Sceptic]

Trying to imagine the ending almost physically hurt and I'm very happy to never have given ME anything but a passing glance.

Mind you, that was only ME2. ME1 kinda gets away with it because it doesn't even try to explain any of this, which frankly was a good idea and would've worked if Bioware had followed some of the ideas that have come up in this thread instead of relying too much on "we are beyond your comprehension". Even though ME2 failed miserably with the MQ the general quality of the writing ranges from mediocre to pretty good, with some genuinely good bits. Had they uniformly applied the good writing to all of ME1 it would've fared pretty well on that front.

I think I've already said it, but I'll admit it again: I don't think ME1 is a bad game. It's certainly nothing like Oblivion. Sure every criticism that Andyman and TNO leveled at it is perfectly valid, but it does some things pretty well, even on the narrative end, as TNO has pointed out. It's not a "real" RPG but if you don't mind the emphasis in action-RPG being on the former it works alright. NPCs are the usual Bioware tropes but they're still a massive incline over KOTOR (yeah I know, bad comparison). Some of the reviled collar-grabbing is actually pretty entertaining to watch, in a B-movie kind of way. If I recall you prefer an overall bad game that does one thing brilliantly to an overall alright game where nothing stands out. ME1 is the latter, but if you've got the bandwidth you could get a demo and try it out yourself. I would classify it as "guilty pleasure" but I don't really think like this, so to me it's more like something to play when you don't want to use your brain too much and just want a B space opera with lots of shooting things and the occasional punching people in the face.

(I'm not making a very good case am I)

 

[DraQ]

(I'm not making a very good case am I)

Not really.


As for the ending it seems much, much worse than Oblivion.

 

[TNO]

I still don't buy Saren or Sovereign. The main problem I think, is lack of development. They COULD have made Sovereign's mind control plausible and effective, but to do that they'd have need to show how Saren's renegade tendencies got twisted and stuff. Instead, the first time you meet him he shoots another guy in cold blood and has butchered a human colony. He also hates humans. He only shows remorse or whatever right at the end when you can convince him to top himself.

What they could (should) have done is instead of revealing the 'stop the reapers' plot twist inside the first hour of the story, why not have the middle third of the game just about trying to hunt down Saren, without knowledge of the Conduit or the plot coupons? The 'awakening the reapers' can be realized later, and the cat and mouse routine offers a more plausible antagonist as well as his relationship to Shepard (think how well star wars would have turned out if Luke met Vader only once in the Emperor's throne room).

The reapers in ME1 suffer a lot of plot induced stupidity. For uber-intelligent eldritch abominations, they suck at contingency planning. Why didn't they twig that someone might have worked out the keepers? Why not just put the citadel relay on a 10 thousand year timer so they pop in and, if there's anyone in the citadel, they destroy them and go genocidal, if not, they go back? Why not have a back up relay, just in case the citadel gets destroyed in some war between the meatbags? Why not put a few fail-deadlys on the citadel relay Sovereign needs to keep sending a signal to keep it closed? The list goes on and on. That's before we get into human-reapers.


Oh, and I've finished ME2. Review forthcoming.

 

[hiver]

Why wouldnt they just build a hundred more relays and take them with them so they can come in anytime they choose?

Because we possibly cannot understand their motivations or whatever? hahaha...

Thats what happens when a meatbag tries to describe machine intelligence.
The whole main plot story is just sickening display of stupidity, anthropomorphism, disgusting anthropocentrism that should have remained in the era of Amazing stories and first steps of Science fiction where it can be considered as an unfortunate and embarrassing necessity - and lack of imagination, intelligence or caring about anything but providing mass market with cheap thrills.


What makes it all even worse is that its one of the more common themes in Science fiction so anyone can get a lot of inspirational and educational material on it with a few clicks.

What they could (should) have done is instead of revealing the 'stop the reapers' plot twist inside the first hour of the story, why not have the middle third of the game just about trying to hunt down Saren, without knowledge of the Conduit or the plot coupons?

because their target audience needs that big fix of epicness slammed into their faces right away to keep them interested enough to buy the damn thing?

 

[Sceptic]

I still don't buy Saren or Sovereign. The main problem I think, is lack of development. They COULD have made Sovereign's mind control plausible and effective, but to do that they'd have need to show how Saren's renegade tendencies got twisted and stuff. Instead, the first time you meet him he shoots another guy in cold blood and has butchered a human colony. He also hates humans. He only shows remorse or whatever right at the end when you can convince him to top himself.

Even that final scene is extremely silly. Compare with the other example of mind control that CK brought up: when you first meet Fai Dan it's obvious something's off. With every colonist you talk to you can tell something is wrong with the whole colony. The only problem with this scene is that you (the player) cannot push people to tell you what the fuck is going on, but at least the whole setup to them being mind-controlled makes sense. Then during the scene where Fai Dan shoots himself you can see him struggling with the mind control. Now compare with Saren: as you already said there's his entire hatred for humans and the backstory points to him being a gigantic dick: he sabotages Anderson's accession to the Spectres just because, killing a large number of people in the process, and that was all before he'd even found Sovereign. He's constantly gloating about "ITS COMING", rather than sounding as if it's the only thing that can be done, and then one line from Shepard is enough to make him go "I had no choice!" completely out of nowhere. It doesn't help that Shepard's line is extremely tame, whether you charm or intimidate him.

What they could (should) have done is instead of revealing the 'stop the reapers' plot twist inside the first hour of the story, why not have the middle third of the game just about trying to hunt down Saren, without knowledge of the Conduit or the plot coupons? The 'awakening the reapers' can be realized later, and the cat and mouse routine offers a more plausible antagonist as well as his relationship to Shepard

This could've been interesting. The cat and mouse game could have paved the way for getting rid of the plot coupons entirely and instead just making it a "branched chase", where disrupting enough of his plans would've led Saren to be more proactive towards stopping Shepard. The revelation of Sovereign could've come then, before Shepard or the player know about the Reapers or understand the beacon message. That would've also helped getting away with "you cannot comprehend" when talking to Sovereign since at this point it would still not be entirely clear exactly what he is or what Saren's trying to do. This would then have led to the Conduit, reapers, and so on.

For uber-intelligent eldritch abominations, they suck at contingency planning.

Never mind all the possibilities you came up with. They HAD a contingency plans: the Collectors had been sitting on their asteroid staring at the ceiling for 50,000 years. WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T THEY USE THEM? As additional forces, as backups, as a distraction, or have Saren and the geth be a distraction while the Collectors attack... why not use the Collectors to lure the Council's attention elsewhere then sneak attack the Citadel while no one's looking? No, Saren and Sovereign just had to expose their entire plan for the galaxy to see as far back as Eden Prime. The only reason the plan even comes close to succeeding is because EVERYONE involved, Council, Alliance, Udina, are a gigantic bunch of faggots. Not exactly the best way to make the Reapers look like very clever beings.

Oh, and I've finished ME2. Review forthcoming.

I can't wait. ME2's main plot was much, much stupider.

 

[Serious_Business]

Are you really all discussing mass effect's plot? Jesus christ, knock yourself out guys, you must really feel smart about pointing how shit it is, well anything to get up your pitiful egos I guess, hell fucking yeah

 

[SCO]

...

What they could (should) have done is instead of revealing the 'stop the reapers' plot twist inside the first hour of the story, why not have the middle third of the game just about trying to hunt down Saren, without knowledge of the Conduit or the plot coupons?

because their target audience needs that big fix of epicness slammed into their faces right away to keep them interested enough to buy the damn thing?

The best science fiction opera books i know (from all eras) tend to start off slow and only get really epic in increments slow burning to climax.

A few examples:
Foundation, Dune, all of Jack McDevitt.
Only amateur writers don't learn this pacing, example: Charles Stross.