Mass Effect: A narratological review

[Clockwork Knight]

Hmm. I don't remember if they have a name for themselves, then.

 

[Serious_Business]

Of course, all of this could've been fixed had we been shown some interesting footage of his interaction with sovereign. Maybe. Instead, we're presented with an excuse for all the shit he's done and then he shoots himself. Come on.

Well, I like the "shoot himself" part, that at least was done right.
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH

Seriously Bioware is shit at making plot, it's incredible how shit they are. I guess I can give them a minimum of credit with the focus they put on the characters (I liked Garrus, Zaeed and Mordin in ME2 for example), but they really can't write a story for shit. Balders Gate, the Star Wars rpg, Dragon age, all horrible, this isn't any different obviously. Some will argue that BG2 had a good story because of the vilain or some bullshit but that's just rose tinted glasses because they found that this game was the best gameplay-wise, whatever.

But speaking of ME, that game was horrible, but I liked the followup on ME2. That story still is horrible but it doesn't matter so much, and some levels felt pretty damn atmospheric and had a (albeit superficial) Lovecraft vibe. If they're going to go with the horrible monsters that defy human comprehension, they should make them scary. I don't know if they managed to do that, and we all know this will end in Sheperd killing everyone (fuck yes), but anyway fuck it ME2 is a good game, but I don't see why anyone would play ME really, gameplay is too subpar.

 

[random_encounter]

Spectres

One thing that deserves a rant are the SPECTREs (Special whatever and Tactical Reconassaince, or whatever the backronym was.) Another part of Bioware's formula is having a leet crew of kewl people who have absolute power to protect the established order by any means necessary (see the Grey Wardens). This trope is rammed into the game with barely any justification. Intelligence services? Sure. Black ops? Fine. But mankind has never done this 'special dudes who are cool and answer to no one' as the best way of doing these things. Why would wider alien community (of multiple species) agree to this sort of thing? What if one of them discovers a plot device of doom and goes crazy?

They could (and should) be excised painlessly from the plot. Make Saren (the main bad guy) some other sort of rogue agent, and let Shepherd pursue him in a non-spectre capacity (perhaps the Human alliance just disobeys the council and lets Shepherd hunt him down 'off the record', or the council co-opts them into their intelligence apparatus). The only purpose of the SPECTREs seems to be being cool, but on close inspection implausible.

I think what Bioware was probably reaching for was the whole "galactic knight" standard. Face it, Shephard was about as covert as an elephant in a china shop. Instead of riding in on a white warhorse beneath a fluttering standard, he simply presented his Spectre ID at the nearest terminal and push aside pesky local norms.

Why would so many races adhere to this? Perhaps because interventions were few enough in number not to make waves big enough to disrupt the galactic peace? But notable enough to make them as feared as the Inquisition.

The Council's conservatism is likely due to the implied fact that Spectres have never fucked up enough to make the member races question the price for their membership. But that's simply guessing. The given scenario for excising the Spectres sounds like it could be more exciting than the lack of red tape the player would have otherwise had to deal with, but I can only guess that it would have involved a lot of workarounds for every time someone decided to pull the uncooperative sovereignty card.

Also, I have no idea why do they call themselves reapers.

And the indoctrination thing isn't shown in game, but the villains tell you that they struggled a long time until succumbing to it. Maybe bio didn't know how to convey it properly.

I have no idea why the council chose a human term to act as the acronym for an organization older than human civilization, but there it is.

As for the indoct, just to back that up, yes, the villains basically come out and say that it eventually erodes the will to resist. From the way they tell it, it's just an aura of effect that is perpetually emitted like radiation.

The way I looked at it, Saren's role had some hope in turning him into more than a 2D villain. Although it makes them susceptible to suggestion, it apparently leaves them with enough free will to keep them somewhat useful and independent.

When I stumbled on Saren's facility on Virmire, I thought that the party might find some mention of his efforts to break the mind control as opposed to improving its effects, that by discovering the cause he was secretly working to find a way to keep himself free of its influence. That as a super-Spectre, this was all an orchestrated plan to stop Sovereign at the end. But alas, he's wasted as a brainwashed thug seen too many times in other games.

Saren turning at the end, perhaps breaking his hold over Sovereign and then joining the party? That would have been more interesting than the "I see what you mean..." BLAM ending we were given for his character.

It could have also challenged Bioware to write a character whose villainy and possible quest for redemption could have opened more doors in the next installment instead of the throwaway interactions with Loghain in DA:O if you chose to spare him. We could have seen scenes like:

Saren: So, we take orders from a man who hides behind a hologram?
Miranda: It's not like that. The Illusive Man collects and coordinates actionable intelligence for us to work with.
Saren: (looks at Shephard) Even this one does that much, but he actually acts on the intelligence that he gathers.
Miranda: Look, I've just had about enough of-
Saren: Shephard, your female is speaking out of turn. Again.

*RENEGADE - Tell Saren to watch his words or he'll be spaced
*PARAGON - I don't like this either, but Saren's here now.

Oh, the fun that could have been had with a partly borg'ed Spectre who hates humanity and is continuing what he still sees as his own mission. But that might have taken the focus away from Shephard too much to be comfortable with? Thane is cooler anyway.

They don't call themselves reapers, the rest of the galaxy does. And it's because they harvest life in the galaxy every thursday. or sumthin like that. y'know. reap life? reapers? GRIM reapers?

Not quite. The Protheans termed them and it stuck thanks to Shephard's reported discovery of the term since he was the Chosen One. The squid machines don't actually call themselves that.

It could be explained away by Shephard's mind approximating what the Protheans tried to relay to him with the associated mythology, but that might give the prose too much credit.

 

[gothemasticator]

The whole "indoctrination" bullshit is the most pathetically contrived...

Okay, sure. But, earlier you were complaining that Saren's reasoning was stupid. The indoctrination explains his lack of good reasoning.

Plus, it is not enough to spot a plot device that has been done before and yell CLICHE! as if that ends all discussion. No country for old men was a brilliant movie whose plot was just rehashed elements of western and heist movies from the last century all cobbled together.

Complaints such as Shepard's "inspiring" speeches to his crew are hackneyed, or that Councilor Udina shows no actual political sense but instead acts like a simple one-dimensional asshole - these are valid criticisms. Spouting CLICHE and DONE TO DEATH is just showing off the fact that you've seen a bunch of movies.

Invalid criticisms:
the aliens all speak English (includes SPECTRE is an English acronym)
ancient evil
other complaints about lack of realism

You can level the above criticisms at any sci-fi. If you like the game/movie, the above elements are acceptible conventions or explainable. If you hate the game/movie, the above elements are stupid and proof that it's bad.

 

[hiver]

Anyone here heard of Fred Saberhagen and Berserkers?

Anyway, the single most stupid thing in that whole pile of dung is the fact that reavers who built all the interstellar tech have locked themselves out of the galaxy and forgot the key on the other side. Those super awesome AIs didnt think of leaving a way back in other then that single one back at the citadel.

Thats more stupid then all the stupid things from the whole game put together.

Its even more stupid then all the stupid shit on codex, bethesda and bio forums put together.

 

[Azael]

I just finished Mass Effect 2 as a renegade sentinel and while it's not much of a RPG, I had a lot of fun with the game. Is there any point in playing the first game, beyond filling in the story gaps? From what I've heard, the gameplay is almost universally improved in the sequel.

The setting is a pretty fun, if unoriginal, space opera one. You can clearly see where they've borrowed heavily from shows like Star Trek and Babylon 5 with some Star Wars thrown in for good measure, just like Dragon Age was a very derivative fantasy setting. Hopefully, importing your savegame from ME2 will have a big effect on what happens in ME3 since you can make a couple of extremely significant choices in the game,

 

[hiver]

What do you mean: filling in the story gaps?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

You can play through the first game in like 10 hours if you ignore the mining, so might as well play it.

 

[Freelance Henchman]

I just finished Mass Effect 2 as a renegade sentinel and while it's not much of a RPG, I had a lot of fun with the game. Is there any point in playing the first game, beyond filling in the story gaps? From what I've heard, the gameplay is almost universally improved in the sequel.

If you stick to the main story and completely ignore all "side quests" you will actually have a somewhat fun ride. The worst thing you will notice about ME1 really is the combat system. I replayed ME1 to remind myself of the story after finishing ME2, and I found the combat just irritating. It felt like you level every 5 minutes, and theres tons and tons of loot that you end up melting down for omni-goo mostly. Apart from that, it's a nice opportunity to grab some collars.

 

[Phelot]

Invalid criticisms:
the aliens all speak English (includes SPECTRE is an English acronym)
ancient evil
other complaints about lack of realism

You can level the above criticisms at any sci-fi. If you like the game/movie, the above elements are acceptible conventions or explainable. If you hate the game/movie, the above elements are stupid and proof that it's bad.

I disagree. All the aliens don't need to speak English, it's just easier that way. I'll use Marathon as another example: The Pfhor speak in a weird warble like voice and their terminals are translated to English. Some words that don't have a proper translation have a list of possible substitutions. It's assumed that the main AI Durandal would know how to translate Pfhor since he was in such close contact/took control of one of their ships. It made the whole affair believable rather then "English is the standard galactic language" or "we have a super translator that makes every word English and gives aliens strange Jamaican or Russian accents to show that they're foreign." That seems lazy to me or simply uncreative.

The Ancient Evil? I'll agree it's a matter of opinion. I happened to think Marathon pulled it off extremely well since the ITZ are never seen and in fact, should you complete the 3rd game correctly, no one ever even knows they exist (they think ITZ a myth)

But other complaints of realism.... again I suppose it is a matter of opinion, but I can't see how anyone can look at the ME universe and see anything new or even interesting. I played up to the big city part, read a number of the codex entries and nothing grabbed me. It was cheap Star Wars rip off and it probably doesn't help that I don't like Star Wars to begin with. Of course, this is all just my humble opinion.

 

[random_encounter]

Invalid criticisms:
the aliens all speak English (includes SPECTRE is an English acronym)
ancient evil
other complaints about lack of realism

You can level the above criticisms at any sci-fi. If you like the game/movie, the above elements are acceptible conventions or explainable. If you hate the game/movie, the above elements are stupid and proof that it's bad.

Not really. As one example, Babylon 5 defied a lot of these conventions. Aliens all speak English? Many didn't. Ancient evil? Not from the Shadows' perspective. Lack of realism? There are varying degrees of liberty taken with every sci-fi series, notably to make things easier to deal with depending on their audience, like artificial gravity. There are many reasons why 2001 is not Star Trek. In games, I could go on in the same way.

The point, though, is that Bioware's approach can be incredibly lazy in several respects to sci-fi that is already out there. For a company that prides itself on storytelling, some of the concessions they make about certain things come off as incredibly generic in a game perceived by the mainstream as a "masterpiece".

 

[Sceptic]

While villains who are in the fucking here and now and have their very own justifications for slaughtering you and stuffing your mouth with your genitalia are far more engaging, in whatever level you care to name.

Ancient Evil can be done right. Lovecraft built his entire mythos on nothing but Ancient Evils, and although the mythos is excessively cliche by now it wasn't back then and the clichedness comes from the countless (very poor) imitations. And just because you design an Ancient Evil doesn't mean you cannot add one or multiple twists to make it more interesting. See MotB, Arcanum, the Guardian pre-Ultima IX, the Creators/Kreegans from Might and Magic...

And the indoctrination thing isn't shown in game, but the villains tell you that they struggled a long time until succumbing to it.Maybe bio didn't know how to convey it properly.

It's shown a few times actually. Benezia tries to resist it, it's especially obvious if you have Liara at which point she even gets a good line. Unfortunately the whole thing comes across as closer to split personality disorder than mind control. Same happens with Saren, both on Virmire and at the end of the game. Getting him to kill himself at the end could've even been great, as that kind of setup with mind control makes suicide more justifiable and believable. But to pull it off you need good writers and a good director for VAs, and Bioware had neither.

Okay, sure. But, earlier you were complaining that Saren's reasoning was stupid. The indoctrination explains his lack of good reasoning.

Fantastic. We have a villain who's acting like a total idiot. Let's handwave it by introducing a totally contrived and utterly stupid mind control plot device. That suddenly makes our plot so much better!

Plus, it is not enough to spot a plot device that has been done before and yell CLICHE! as if that ends all discussion.

What the fuck? Have you even read anything in this entire thread? Most posts have gone into details on exactly why each cliche doesn't work. Hell the ENTIRE ORIGINAL POST IS NOTHING BUT THIS. Learn to read FFS.

If you like the game/movie, the above elements are acceptible conventions or explainable. If you hate the game/movie, the above elements are stupid and proof that it's bad.

No you idiot. Being able to spot stupidity has nothing to do with whether you like the game or not. I'm actually one of those nutcases who likes ME1 and thinks it's good for what it is (yeah I know -9000 KKK right there). That doesn't mean I'm going to gush and praise and suck Bioware cock and give it a 10/10 GAEM OF THE DECADE and be completely blind to everything the game does wrong. Proper critique means you can spot good things in something you don't like and the bad things in something you like. Your statement is the exact reason why gaming journalism sucks ass.

 

[gothemasticator]

I disagree. All the aliens don't need to speak English, it's just easier that way

The Ancient Evil? I'll agree it's a matter of opinion. I happened to think Marathon pulled it off extremely well

I can't see how anyone can look at the ME universe and see anything new or even interesting

I agree with you entirely. My point about invalid criticisms was that you can't just say "It has Ancient Evil as a plot device! Therefore it sucks!" All genres have their slice of the cliche pie, all that matters is whether it tastes good.

Bioware's approach can be incredibly lazy in several respects to sci-fi that is already out there

This. It's the laziness and amateurish implementation that hurts Mass Effect, not the simple inclusion of cliche elements.

Ancient Evil can be done right.

I agree.

Okay, sure. But, earlier you were complaining that Saren's reasoning was stupid. The indoctrination explains his lack of good reasoning.

Fantastic. We have a villain who's acting like a total idiot. Let's handwave it by introducing a totally contrived and utterly stupid mind control plot device. That suddenly makes our plot so much better!

All I'm saying is that you have to choose which thing to complaing about: the mind-control bit or the character's stupid choice. If it's mind control, then the character is not stupid, he's mind-controlled.

What the fuck? Have you even read anything in this entire thread? Most posts have gone into details on exactly why each cliche doesn't work. Hell the ENTIRE ORIGINAL POST IS NOTHING BUT THIS. Learn to read FFS.

Yeah. And if you'd read, you'd see that I praised the OP.

I'll be more clear: Your posts are mainly what I'm complaining about. There's been some good discussion in this thread about a game we all find lacking, and much of that discussion has been reasonable and filled out with examples. Your posts pretty much amount to, "STUPID! CLICHE! ALSO STUPID! HATE! ANGER!"

 

[Sceptic]

The whole "indoctrination" bullshit is the most pathetically contrived plot excuse to show up in space opera. It could've worked if the writers spent some time giving the villains some depth, if you could see them really being reluctant, hesitating, flipping back and forth trying to break free... but as TNO already pointed out in the article the villains are left with minimal characterization. As it is indoctrination is just the excuse that gets involved by the plot whenever it wants to justify Saren or Benezia doing something extremely stupid. Unfortunately that's what they're doing most of the time.

Ancient Evil can be done right. Lovecraft built his entire mythos on nothing but Ancient Evils, and although the mythos is excessively cliche by now it wasn't back then and the clichedness comes from the countless (very poor) imitations. And just because you design an Ancient Evil doesn't mean you cannot add one or multiple twists to make it more interesting. See MotB, Arcanum, the Guardian pre-Ultima IX, the Creators/Kreegans from Might and Magic...

It's shown a few times actually. Benezia tries to resist it, it's especially obvious if you have Liara at which point she even gets a good line. Unfortunately the whole thing comes across as closer to split personality disorder than mind control. Same happens with Saren, both on Virmire and at the end of the game. Getting him to kill himself at the end could've even been great, as that kind of setup with mind control makes suicide more justifiable and believable. But to pull it off you need good writers and a good director for VAs, and Bioware had neither.

Your posts pretty much amount to, "STUPID! CLICHE! ALSO STUPID! HATE! ANGER!"

You know, you'd have looked a lot more believable if you'd just said "tl;dr".

Moving on.

My point about invalid criticisms was that you can't just say "It has Ancient Evil as a plot device! Therefore it sucks!" All genres have their slice of the cliche pie, all that matters is whether it tastes good.

Yes, which is what I and others have already said (including the OP).

This. It's the laziness and amateurish implementation that hurts Mass Effect, not the simple inclusion of cliche elements.

Yes, which is what I and others have already said...

Okay, sure. But, earlier you were complaining that Saren's reasoning was stupid. The indoctrination explains his lack of good reasoning.

No, because his reason for joining with Sovereign and coming in contact with indoctrination in the first place were stupid. That was what I was discussing earlier on.

If it's mind control, then the character is not stupid, he's mind-controlled.

This is precisely the point I was trying to make: being mind-controlled does not give you a free ticket at being stupid. Though this may apply better to being Sovereign's stupidity rather than Saren's: if Sov is the one who's really in charge maybe he should ensure his minions act in a more sensible manner, or at least one that furthers Sov's agenda rather than sabotage it at every step.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

It's shown a few times actually. Benezia tries to resist it, it's especially obvious if you have Liara at which point she even gets a good line. Unfortunately the whole thing comes across as closer to split personality disorder than mind control. Same happens with Saren, both on Virmire and at the end of the game. Getting him to kill himself at the end could've even been great, as that kind of setup with mind control makes suicide more justifiable and believable. But to pull it off you need good writers and a good director for VAs, and Bioware had neither.

That reminds me, the colonists' leader, who was under control of the Thorian plant, kills himself too. That one came out alright, I think.

 

[DraQ]

So, I haven't played ME, nor do I think I ever will, is there any explanation for why does teh anshunt evuul periodically destroy sapient life in the galaxy?


Also, regarding the ancient evils:

One of the cool ways out is giving it a very good reason for doing what it does. To the point where you acknowledge doing the wrong thing, but persevere because you have to.

Has anyone read Baxter's-Clarke's "A Time Odyssey", BTW?

As for the other examples of ancient evils - does anyone remember the main plot in Anachronox?

 

[Phelot]

It's my opinion that an ancient evil shouldn't have a normal human reason for doing things that is it shouldn't be understood by humans. At the same time ancient evil probably shouldn't be talking to humans anyway saying shit like "you cant comprehend!!!!!"

Just imagine that you've been around since creation, you've watched worlds grow and die, you've drifted among the clouds of space and time understanding it all only to talk to some retarded humans and human-like "aliens?"

 

[Sceptic]

That reminds me, the colonists' leader, who was under control of the Thorian plant, kills himself too. That one came out alright, I think.

I reloaded a save after reading your post to watch this again. It really works in this scene. I think part of the reason is that there is very little talking, part of it is the little touches in the cinematics that TNO pointed out in the article: the jerky movement, the expression of pain, using his other hand to point the gun away...

It's my opinion that an ancient evil shouldn't have a normal human reason for doing things that is it shouldn't be understood by humans. At the same time ancient evil probably shouldn't be talking to humans anyway saying shit like "you cant comprehend!!!!!"

Just imagine that you've been around since creation, you've watched worlds grow and die, you've drifted among the clouds of space and time understanding it all only to talk to some retarded humans and human-like "aliens?"

Yeah that's why Lovecraft got away with so many things that his imitators can't IMO. Most of his Ancient Evils didn't actually talk to humans directly (not to any of the protagonists, that's for sure) and never, ever explained their plans or said anything like "you cannot comprehend". In the few cases where a human mind touched one of the Great Old Ones they don't just go "I'm not sure what this means", they go MAD. In some stories they go mad just from seeing something related to the Ancient Evil. I don't know know if it's possible to pull off an Ancient Evil that will talk to humans and still pull off a "you cant comprehend!!!!!" properly; I instinctively want to say "no" but in any case ME didn't pull it off with Sovereign's speech on Virmire. I think it could be doable if the AE does spout his plan and it's so beyond human understanding that it still doesn't make any sense, but while this can be done in book form (describe the whole thing in 3rd person, therefore the characters hear the speech but not the reader) I don't know how that'd work in cinematic form (movie or game) short of "you cannot comprehend" (which doesn't really work).

So, I haven't played ME, nor do I think I ever will, is there any explanation for why does teh anshunt evuul periodically destroy sapient life in the galaxy?

In ME1, it's just "you're a food source". It's explained more fully in ME2... unfortunately in the process of doing so they do several needless retcons/rewrites and in the end the explanation makes very little sense. I won't spoil it unless you want us to.

One of the cool ways out is giving it a very good reason for doing what it does. To the point where you acknowledge doing the wrong thing, but persevere because you have to.

I think that's what they were trying to do with Saren and they tried it again with Loghain in DAO. It didn't really work in either. I thought it worked a little better for Benezia actually: she knows from the start that Saren's wrong and she only joins him so she can show him that, then falls under the influence of Sovereign as well. It's a bit of a wasted opportunity though because she's too gleeful about going along with the reapers' plan. It may have worked better to do away with the mind control entirely and have her constantly reluctant to go with the plan and build a slightly different plot from there: make Saren's influence on her much more subtle, or have it so that she is only going along with him because she (wrongly) thinks that after the first objectives are met she'd be able to convince Saren to stop.

As for the other examples of ancient evils - does anyone remember the main plot in Anachronox?

Yes. There was plenty of silliness in that plot but Anachronox gets a pass because the NPCs will gleefully point out how the silly bits before you even have the time to and they'll happily make fun of how cliche some it is. And frankly I never dug Anachronox for its main plot but for the gorgeous atmosphere and the extremely detailed character stories.

 

[Freelance Henchman]

I don't know know if it's possible to pull off an Ancient Evil that will talk to humans and still pull off a "you cant comprehend!!!!!" properly; I instinctively want to say "no" but in any case ME didn't pull it off with Sovereign's speech on Virmire.

The only example of that I can think of, where it sort-of worked, was the "Blight" in A Fire Upon the Deep, which was an ancient super-AI-virus. It was so virulent and destructive that it could even kill transcended post-Singularity god-like beings. Normal humans and other beings of that level simply got their personalities overwritten and turned into puppets. Some of those where made to contact the rest of the galaxy with "do not fear us, this is wonderful" sort of messages, but it was utterly obvious just from seeing the videos that these were just robots now. I don't think the Blight ever spoke to any human directly, but the indirect contact was very chillingly written.

 

[DraQ]

I don't know know if it's possible to pull off an Ancient Evil that will talk to humans and still pull off a "you cant comprehend!!!!!" properly

Technically it should be. The problem with "you can't comprehend!!!!" is that in 999/1000 cases it's a lame cop-out.
HPL's cantcomprehends always had something underneath, you could see glimpses of purpose, but not enough to even fathom it in its whole. The imitators, on the other hand almost universally fail to provide that and in consequence come off as "we did it for lulz".

Additionally, there is wide range of reasons that seem frighteningly sane when you think about them, might even seem like the only option, yet they remain so instinctively repulsive and so unnaceptable that even thinking about how sane they seem when considered dispassionately makes you feel uneasy.
I'd say that those are also pretty Lovecraftian, in their effect rather than method of delivery, and may very well substitute for a good cantcomprehend. The caveat is that they require the developers to think.

In ME1, it's just "you're a food source". It's explained more fully in ME2... unfortunately in the process of doing so they do several needless retcons/rewrites and in the end the explanation makes very little sense. I won't spoil it unless you want us to.

I don't mind. Just use the

[spoiler]

tags.

As for the other examples of ancient evils - does anyone remember the main plot in Anachronox?

Yes. There was plenty of silliness in that plot but Anachronox gets a pass because the NPCs will gleefully point out how the silly bits before you even have the time to and they'll happily make fun of how cliche some it is. And frankly I never dug Anachronox for its main plot but for the gorgeous atmosphere and the extremely detailed character stories.

Anachronox had a lot of sillines (if only due to how comical it often was), it also had archetypal

Spoiler

ancient imprisoned evuul or at least all consuming chaos

, but when the lulz or coolnes weren't in the way it did pretty awesome job at story construction and generally doing it right. See

Spoiler

the missiles not slowing and burning in the atmosphere or the whole evil plan with throwing matter around the timeline in the pulsating universe to prevent the latter universes from ever existing by removing the big crunch

. Pretty wow, IMO.

 

[Sceptic]

The only example of that I can think of, where it sort-of worked, was the "Blight" in A Fire Upon the Deep

From your description it sounds interesting but does the Blight ever hint at what its goal is? Does anyone even ask it? What I was wondering was if it's possible to do a "you can't comprehend" line well. Avoiding it entirely is an obvious alternative and one that's easier to pull off I think.

Technically it should be. The problem with "you can't comprehend!!!!" is that in 999/1000 cases it's a lame cop-out.
HPL's cantcomprehends always had something underneath, you could see glimpses of purpose, but not enough to even fathom it in its whole. The imitators, on the other hand almost universally fail to provide that and in consequence come off as "we did it for lulz".

Yeah exactly. The HPL's characters even speculated, came up with theories, sometimes discarded these theories... it made the whole thing much more believable.

Anachronox had a lot of sillines (if only due to how comical it often was)

A little unrelated, but I always marvel at Anachronox's ability to be at once a very serious game and an extremely silly and funny game. On the one hand you have the poignant moments like the entire backstory between Boots, Stiletto and Fatima (with some incredible cutscenes), on the other you have the pure lulz moments like the comic book evil guy's spaceship. Mixing things like this shouldn't work, yet somehow Anachronox makes it work.

but when the lulz or coolnes weren't in the way it did pretty awesome job at story construction and generally doing it right.

I think it does much better earlier on, though I guess for an unfinished game it fares much better than any other. I was a little disappointed when the evil guys' plan was revealed, as until then the way the plot was unfolding was incredible and it was such a good build up that the reveal was going to disappoint me no matter what. The escape sequence while the planet is being disintegrated below you and you have no idea what the hell is going on was incredibly well-done.

the missiles not slowing and burning in the atmosphere

That scene was pure genius. Then again the game's full of these.

I don't mind. Just use the tags.

I'm lazy and can't be bothered writing a long exposition so I'll steal it from Shamus's 3-page critique of the ME2 plot. End result: this is how the reapers reproduce. The spoiler points out some problems with this plot, but there are others. Maybe ME3 will have a better explanation.

Spoiler

Your team arrives at the collector base to find out they have been kidnapping tens (or hundreds) of thousands of humans, liquefying them, and then using the organic ooze to build a giant humanoid robot. The robot isn’t complete (it’s just a head and torso) but it looks like the plan was to make the whole body.

1) Why use ORGANIC slush to make a METAL robot? Yes, the audience can speculate, but when something really crazy and jarring happens in a story you need to either explain it or acknowledge it as a mystery. But the only dialog we get is:

EDI: My readings indicate it’s a Reaper.

SHEPARD: A Human Reaper.

EDI: Precisely.

ME: Bwahahaha! WTF?

2) There is an excuse offered up that this is sort of how Reapers reproduce. But what is a robot-made-of-slurpee able to do that a straight-up engineered robot can’t? This system is actually more inefficient, convoluted, and time consuming than anything an organic species might go through to reproduce or build a warship. Why don’t they just build a ship and load it up with Reaper tech? It might not be a full-fledged Reaper, but it should come close enough to get the job done. Remember the goal: 1) Reach the Citadel and open the relay to let the other Reapers through. 2) Win! For all the effort they put into rounding up people and playing “will it blend?” with them, they could have gone a long way to making a pretty good ship. Or ships.

3) Okay, so it’s a Reaper… somehow. What is the utility of a kilometer-tall robotic space-faring biped? Walk around in space? Punch spaceships? Bite stuff? Embarrass the enemy with its massive space genitalia? This is the OPPOSITE of what a machine race would do. This is adding inefficient organic cruft to a machine.

The problem with the Reapers as they are portrayed in this game is that they’re terrible at using their resources to meet their stated goals.

 

[DraQ]

Technically it should be. The problem with "you can't comprehend!!!!" is that in 999/1000 cases it's a lame cop-out.
HPL's cantcomprehends always had something underneath, you could see glimpses of purpose, but not enough to even fathom it in its whole. The imitators, on the other hand almost universally fail to provide that and in consequence come off as "we did it for lulz".

Yeah exactly. The HPL's characters even speculated, came up with theories, sometimes discarded these theories... it made the whole thing much more believable.

Also, recurring theme in HPL's prose is that humanity is extremely insignificant and generally doomed to be written off in a backlash of immensely powerful beings just doing their stuff.

Most of the imitators epically fail through anthropocentrism.

A little unrelated, but I always marvel at Anachronox's ability to be at once a very serious game and an extremely silly and funny game. On the one hand you have the poignant moments like the entire backstory between Boots, Stiletto and Fatima (with some incredible cutscenes), on the other you have the pure lulz moments like the comic book evil guy's spaceship. Mixing things like this shouldn't work, yet somehow Anachronox makes it work.

Yeah, it was just epic.

I was a little disappointed when the evil guys' plan was revealed, as until then the way the plot was unfolding was incredible and it was such a good build up that the reveal was going to disappoint me no matter what. The escape sequence while the planet is being disintegrated below you and you have no idea what the hell is going on was incredibly well-done.

I was somewhat disappointed by the whole good-evil stuff, though given the game's unfinished state, it might have taken a few turns and both, presumed "good" and presumed "evil" might have turned just lovecraftian.

I was however absolutely awed by the whole

Spoiler

waitaminute they port matter between different points in time to fiddle with expansion rates of subsequent universes and prevent their enemies from ever existing???

thing.

Also, on an unrelated note, Rho Bowman, with her "well that sucks" and "no, let them kill each other" absolutely rocked.

Spoiler

"The planet walks into a bar"

did too. Eh, what didn't?

That scene was pure genius. Then again the game's full of these.

It's almost made of it.

I don't mind. Just use the tags.

I'm lazy and can't be bothered writing a long exposition so I'll steal it from Shamus's 3-page critique of the ME2 plot. End result: this is how the reapers reproduce. The spoiler points out some problems with this plot, but there are others. Maybe ME3 will have a better explanation.

Spoiler

Your team arrives at the collector base to find out they have been kidnapping tens (or hundreds) of thousands of humans, liquefying them, and then using the organic ooze to build a giant humanoid robot. The robot isn’t complete (it’s just a head and torso) but it looks like the plan was to make the whole body.

1) Why use ORGANIC slush to make a METAL robot? Yes, the audience can speculate, but when something really crazy and jarring happens in a story you need to either explain it or acknowledge it as a mystery. But the only dialog we get is:

EDI: My readings indicate it’s a Reaper.

SHEPARD: A Human Reaper.

EDI: Precisely.

ME: Bwahahaha! WTF?

2) There is an excuse offered up that this is sort of how Reapers reproduce. But what is a robot-made-of-slurpee able to do that a straight-up engineered robot can’t? This system is actually more inefficient, convoluted, and time consuming than anything an organic species might go through to reproduce or build a warship. Why don’t they just build a ship and load it up with Reaper tech? It might not be a full-fledged Reaper, but it should come close enough to get the job done. Remember the goal: 1) Reach the Citadel and open the relay to let the other Reapers through. 2) Win! For all the effort they put into rounding up people and playing “will it blend?” with them, they could have gone a long way to making a pretty good ship. Or ships.

3) Okay, so it’s a Reaper… somehow. What is the utility of a kilometer-tall robotic space-faring biped? Walk around in space? Punch spaceships? Bite stuff? Embarrass the enemy with its massive space genitalia? This is the OPPOSITE of what a machine race would do. This is adding inefficient organic cruft to a machine.

The problem with the Reapers as they are portrayed in this game is that they’re terrible at using their resources to meet their stated goals.

:shock:

I feel... mentally violated.

 

[Sceptic]

Most of the imitators epically fail through anthropocentrism.

I think anthropocentrism will undermine any AE plot but ME does take it too far in every aspect. Then again I can't think of many Space Opera that don't fall into this trap. At least ME tried to have people comment on it in-universe, such as the aliens being afraid of humans expanding too quickly while humans think that aliens are trying to hold them back. It could've made for a very interesting vicious circle driving some background threads but Bio didn't exploit it enough and instead it quickly degenerated into racism on both sides (Ashley was a terrible example of this) and some minor throaways (like that anti-aliens group you get on the citadel towards the end).

I was somewhat disappointed by the whole good-evil stuff, though given the game's unfinished state, it might have taken a few turns and both, presumed "good" and presumed "evil" might have turned just lovecraftian.

That would've been an awesome twist and would've made a lot of sense.

Spoiler

"The planet walks into a bar"

I fell in love with the game straight away thanks to the atmosphere, graphic design and music, but I really got hooked on the plot on Sunder. Then the "drifting in space" scene just after made me realize just how funny the game was. When that NPC walked in the bar though I knew I'd never play anything like this again.

It's almost made of it.

Definitely. Anyone who's played Rise of the Triad would know Tom Hall has a wacky mind, but he really outdid himself with Anachronox. I still rage when I think that Daikatana's hype overshadowed it so completely and the hype backlash on that game is what killed this one. What a shame.

I feel... mentally violated.

Sorry, I should've warned you to have brain shields up beforehand

 

[hiver]

I'm lazy and can't be bothered writing a long exposition so I'll steal it from Shamus's 3-page critique of the ME2 plot.

Dear Lord....
I was... entertaining the thought of torrenting it and playing but after this?


Anyway since yall talking about previous incarnations of this idea of "evil" machines out to destroy organic life i cant resist repeating :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker_(Saberhagen)

The great grandady of organic life wasting machine intelligences and uber awesome spaceships carrying/being the same and quite possibly the rip off source.

If you want a more modernized version that i warmly recommend Gregory Benford`s series "Galactic Center".
There is no "You wont be able to comprehend our motives because they are so stupid it might just blow your mind human!" in either.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Yeah that's why Lovecraft got away with so many things that his imitators can't IMO. Most of his Ancient Evils didn't actually talk to humans directly (not to any of the protagonists, that's for sure) and never, ever explained their plans or said anything like "you cannot comprehend". In the few cases where a human mind touched one of the Great Old Ones they don't just go "I'm not sure what this means", they go MAD. In some stories they go mad just from seeing something related to the Ancient Evil. I don't know know if it's possible to pull off an Ancient Evil that will talk to humans and still pull off a "you cant comprehend!!!!!" properly; I instinctively want to say "no" but in any case ME didn't pull it off with Sovereign's speech on Virmire. I think it could be doable if the AE does spout his plan and it's so beyond human understanding that it still doesn't make any sense, but while this can be done in book form (describe the whole thing in 3rd person, therefore the characters hear the speech but not the reader) I don't know how that'd work in cinematic form (movie or game) short of "you cannot comprehend" (which doesn't really work).

Of course, it could be that Sovereign and the reapers are just conceited, fucks who roleplay ancient horrors and think other races wouldn't comprehend them; this doesn't make it fact.

I can see ME ending with shepard finishing them off with a "Looks like you weren't as complex as you thought", or something like that. In fact, I think it would be nicer than them being actual space horrors but defeated anyway because of the power of friendship and collar grabbing.

reaper stuff

Spoiler

Maybe the reapers are slowly evolving by consuming everything every few millenia, then processing that information during their slumber? The EVA human reaper would be the next step on their evolutionary tree. A machine race directly interfering with their evolution by means of actual evolution instead of building better parts. You can even add Pinocchio connotations - they want to be perfect biological beings.

Would also explain their Cthulhu complex and their "you wouldn't comprehend" drivel - as biological beings already, we couldn't understand that need.

You can even go crazy and add some more depth to the Geth beyond them not wanting to be slaves of living beings anymore.