Severian Silk
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Why does everyone think your game is isometric, when it is, in fact, not?
What? What are saying??galsiah said:It's just an unfortunate picture of the word that gets learned through a lack of complete information and/or technical explanation.
The "logic" goes like this:
(1) Isometric is a description of the view.
(2) Isometric games look like this.
(3) Therefore "looking like this" is what "isometric" means.
Sadly most peoples' idea of this in (2) manages to exclude important, but unrecognised, factors. Since usually no-one explains what isometric technically means, or gives examples of aerial views that aren't isometric, no more precise idea gets learned.
It's a perfectly understandable idea of the meaning given the common usage of the term (i.e. that no-one bothers to say "This game isn't isometric" of games that aren't, or to give technical explanations of the term). It just happens to be very unhelpful when you want to have any kind of precise discussion about views. An idea that consists just in not being X, Y and Z, isn't at all helpful if you want to expand discussion to new ideas/contexts - for that you need agreement on what it is.
Of course it is, but "third person" now means "Over-the-shoulder third person" because:Mikail said:But the view is third person (floating).
galsiah said:An idea that consists just in not being X, Y and Z, isn't at all helpful if you want to expand discussion to new ideas/contexts - for that you need agreement on what it is.
I'm saying that people don't know/think about what isometric/third-person means - they derive the supposed meaning from the context in which it is used (in their experience).Mikail said:What? What are saying??
Sure - right up until you expand the domain of the discussion. At that point your "negative definition" is ambiguous - does it still mean "everything apart from X, Y and Z", or should it now be "everything apart from X, Y, Z and W".sqeecoo said:It called a negative definition. It's very helpful in situations where you have several distinct elements in a group, and one of them a bit harder to define. Saying it's everything that's not X, Y and Z is a good way to go about it.
Sure - but would you pick up the exact meaning just from reading descriptions of games? Bear in mind that some descriptions will be written by people who don't know what isometric means (and so misapply it), none is likely to tell you "this game isn't isometric", and no-one's likely to give a technical definition in such a description.Jasede said:Isometric has a clearly defined meaning.
Wikipedia said:Isometric projection is a form of graphical projection — more specifically, an axonometric projection. It is a method of visually representing three-dimensional objects in two dimensions, in which the three axes of space appear equally foreshortened, of which the displayed angles among them and also the scale of foreshortening are universally known, and each angle between two of the three axes is 120°. Isometric projection is one of the projections used in drafting engineering drawings.
In isometric projections the direction of viewing is such that the three axes of space appear equally foreshortened, of which the displayed angles among them and also the scale of foreshortening are universally known. However in creating a final, isometric instrument drawing, in most cases a full-size scale, i.e., without using a foreshortening factor, is employed to good effect because the resultant distortion is difficult to perceive.
Yes - we know. No-one's debating the correct definition (I hope).Mikail said:Isometric drawings are drawn without perspective. They simulate what a camera would see at infinite zoom from a distance infinitely far away.
Mikail said:Wikipedia said:Isometric projection is a form of graphical projection — more specifically, an axonometric projection. It is a method of visually representing three-dimensional objects in two dimensions, in which the three axes of space appear equally foreshortened, of which the displayed angles among them and also the scale of foreshortening are universally known, and each angle between two of the three axes is 120°. Isometric projection is one of the projections used in drafting engineering drawings.
In isometric projections the direction of viewing is such that the three axes of space appear equally foreshortened, of which the displayed angles among them and also the scale of foreshortening are universally known. However in creating a final, isometric instrument drawing, in most cases a full-size scale, i.e., without using a foreshortening factor, is employed to good effect because the resultant distortion is difficult to perceive.
Isometric drawings are drawn without perspective. It measn that parallel lines do not converge upon a vanishing point like they do in perspective drawings. Isometric projection simulates what a camera would see at infinite zoom from a distance infinitely far away.
As a big fan of isometric projection, I'm offended that you would simply slap on the label in order to sell games.
Then people will get confused about the free camera thing, start asking all kinda questions, I'll explain patiently every fucking time, and then they will say "why didn't you say isometric?". Then I'll have to explain in geek that isometric actually means ... [insert a scientific explanation or two here], and so on and so on. So I figured it would be easier just to call it isometric from the beginning.Jasede said:I don't get it though. Isometric has a clearly defined meaning. AoD is, of course, not isometric. Games like Equinox or Solstice are isometric.
Just change that, VD. Say it has a free camera or something.
Abso-fucking-lutely. That's where the money is.Galsiah said:@VD - you should probably change the website description though. It is wrong. You could go with "isometric-style", or similar, but "isometric" it isn't.
Of course you could leave it, but that puts you in the dumbing-down-and-lying-for-marketing-purposes camp. Is that where you want to be?
If it's not a feature that anyone wants, then why list it as a feature in the first place? What's the value of telling people the game is isometric if noone thinks it's important?Roqua said:I'm offended that you consider yourself a big fan of isometric projection. Do you think that anyone that would be "duped" into buying this game that fasley uses the term isometric gives two shits if it isn't really isometric?
Sure - and when you say game X is an RPG, it means that the game has stats, levels, monsters to kill and loot.Vault Dweller said:Overall though, isometric is a concept. When you say that game X is isometric, it gives people an idea of what the view is *like*. It means that the game is not first-person or third-person. It does NOT mean that the game's angle is defined with an amazing precision.
You are confusing literal meaning with commonly accepted meaning.Mikail said:If it's not a feature that anyone wants, then why list it as a feature in the first place? What's the value of telling people the game is isometric if noone thinks it's important?Roqua said:I'm offended that you consider yourself a big fan of isometric projection. Do you think that anyone that would be "duped" into buying this game that fasley uses the term isometric gives two shits if it isn't really isometric?
That's not what I criticize Bethesda for.Galsiah said:You might be using "isometric" in the most communicative sense - but you're still using it in the RPG = foozles, xp and loot sense. Perhaps that's the reasonable thing to do - but then it's not really consistent to criticize Bethesda marketing for dumbing down on commonly understood ideas of "RPG", "Immersion", "Non-linearity"....
You do implicitly when you go with the "If they put RPG on the box, we expect an RPG..." line. They are providing the common idea of an RPG - they're just not including what you and I might expect from an RPG.Vault Dweller said:That's not what I criticize Bethesda for.
galsiah said:@VD - you should probably change the website description though. It is wrong. You could go with "isometric-style", or similar, but "isometric" it isn't.
Of course you could leave it, but that puts you in the dumbing-down-and-lying-for-marketing-purposes camp. Is that where you want to be?
I'm simply saying that he's dumbing down the language in his marketing - which is exactly what he's doing. In this one respect, he's doing the same kind of thing as Bethesda.Sovy Kurosei said:This is so dishonest of you to insinuate that because Iron Tower calls AoD isometric that it is as bad as the other companies that actually do dumb down their games and lie through their teeth.