Isometric??

[Severian Silk]

Why does everyone think your game is isometric, when it is, in fact, not?

 

[Fez]

Conspiracy! VD has been bribing people. Just the other day he gave me $599 US dollars to agree with him that it is isometric.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Being a simple country bumpkin, I naively define isometric as something that's neither first-person, nor second person (ok, I'm kidding about this one), nor third person, nor top-down view.

 

[galsiah]

It's just an unfortunate picture of the word that gets learned through a lack of complete information and/or technical explanation.

The "logic" goes like this:
(1) Isometric is a description of the view.
(2) Isometric games look like this.
(3) Therefore "looking like this" is what "isometric" means.

Sadly most peoples' idea of this in (2) manages to exclude important, but unrecognised, factors. Since usually no-one explains what isometric technically means, or gives examples of aerial views that aren't isometric, no more precise idea gets learned.

It's a perfectly understandable idea of the meaning given the common usage of the term (i.e. that no-one bothers to say "This game isn't isometric" of games that aren't, or to give technical explanations of the term). It just happens to be very unhelpful when you want to have any kind of precise discussion about views. An idea that consists just in not being X, Y and Z, isn't at all helpful if you want to expand discussion to new ideas/contexts - for that you need agreement on what it is.

 

[Severian Silk]

But the view is third person (floating).

It's just an unfortunate picture of the word that gets learned through a lack of complete information and/or technical explanation.

The "logic" goes like this:
(1) Isometric is a description of the view.
(2) Isometric games look like this.
(3) Therefore "looking like this" is what "isometric" means.

Sadly most peoples' idea of this in (2) manages to exclude important, but unrecognised, factors. Since usually no-one explains what isometric technically means, or gives examples of aerial views that aren't isometric, no more precise idea gets learned.

It's a perfectly understandable idea of the meaning given the common usage of the term (i.e. that no-one bothers to say "This game isn't isometric" of games that aren't, or to give technical explanations of the term). It just happens to be very unhelpful when you want to have any kind of precise discussion about views. An idea that consists just in not being X, Y and Z, isn't at all helpful if you want to expand discussion to new ideas/contexts - for that you need agreement on what it is.

What? What are saying??

 

[galsiah]

But the view is third person (floating).

Of course it is, but "third person" now means "Over-the-shoulder third person" because:

(1) Third Person is a description of the view.
(2) Third person games look like this. (I know - I've played Tomb Raider and Prince of Persia...)
(3) Therefore "looking like this" is what "Third Person" means.

Q.E.D.

 

[sqeecoo]

An idea that consists just in not being X, Y and Z, isn't at all helpful if you want to expand discussion to new ideas/contexts - for that you need agreement on what it is.

It called a negative definition. It's very helpful in situations where you have several distinct elements in a group, and one of them a bit harder to define. Saying it's everything that's not X, Y and Z is a good way to go about it.

 

[galsiah]

What? What are saying??

I'm saying that people don't know/think about what isometric/third-person means - they derive the supposed meaning from the context in which it is used (in their experience).

Therefore "third person" means "games with a view like Prince of Persia, Tomb Raider...".
While "isometric" means "games which aren't first-person, third person (see above), or top-down...".

Substitute X and Y for "third person" and "isometric", and these understandings make reasonable sense - as definitions learned inductively from observed evidence. It's only when you already know what X and Y actually mean that it all looks like madness.

 

[galsiah]

It called a negative definition. It's very helpful in situations where you have several distinct elements in a group, and one of them a bit harder to define. Saying it's everything that's not X, Y and Z is a good way to go about it.

Sure - right up until you expand the domain of the discussion. At that point your "negative definition" is ambiguous - does it still mean "everything apart from X, Y and Z", or should it now be "everything apart from X, Y, Z and W".
Positive, descriptive definitions stay valid and useful under expansion of the domain being considered. "Negative definitions" need re-evaluation for every change of context. They are thus Pretty Crap (tm) - at best a last resort. [unless "everything apart from..." is really the essence of the idea - clearly not the case for "isometric"]

 

[Jasede]

I don't get it though. Isometric has a clearly defined meaning. AoD is, of course, not isometric. Games like Equinox or Solstice are isometric.

Just change that, VD. Say it has a free camera or something.

 

[galsiah]

Isometric has a clearly defined meaning.

Sure - but would you pick up the exact meaning just from reading descriptions of games? Bear in mind that some descriptions will be written by people who don't know what isometric means (and so misapply it), none is likely to tell you "this game isn't isometric", and no-one's likely to give a technical definition in such a description.

If you know the definition, everything is very clear. If you never saw a definition, it might not be.

 

[Severian Silk]

Isometric projection is a form of graphical projection — more specifically, an axonometric projection. It is a method of visually representing three-dimensional objects in two dimensions, in which the three axes of space appear equally foreshortened, of which the displayed angles among them and also the scale of foreshortening are universally known, and each angle between two of the three axes is 120°. Isometric projection is one of the projections used in drafting engineering drawings.

In isometric projections the direction of viewing is such that the three axes of space appear equally foreshortened, of which the displayed angles among them and also the scale of foreshortening are universally known. However in creating a final, isometric instrument drawing, in most cases a full-size scale, i.e., without using a foreshortening factor, is employed to good effect because the resultant distortion is difficult to perceive.

Isometric drawings are drawn without perspective. It measn that parallel lines do not converge upon a vanishing point like they do in perspective drawings. Isometric projection simulates what a camera would see at infinite zoom from a distance infinitely far away.

As a big fan of isometric projection, I'm offended that you would simply slap on the label in order to sell games.

 

[galsiah]

Isometric drawings are drawn without perspective. They simulate what a camera would see at infinite zoom from a distance infinitely far away.

Yes - we know. No-one's debating the correct definition (I hope).
I'm just pointing out why people have arrived at this misunderstanding.


@VD - you should probably change the website description though. It is wrong. You could go with "isometric-style", or similar, but "isometric" it isn't.
Of course you could leave it, but that puts you in the dumbing-down-and-lying-for-marketing-purposes camp. Is that where you want to be?

EDIT: although I guess that you can argue the incorrect description is more informative provided that most of your audience don't know what isometric means. I'd have thought that "isometric-style" would be as informative (if not more so), yet still be correct at a pinch.

 

[Roqua]

Isometric projection is a form of graphical projection — more specifically, an axonometric projection. It is a method of visually representing three-dimensional objects in two dimensions, in which the three axes of space appear equally foreshortened, of which the displayed angles among them and also the scale of foreshortening are universally known, and each angle between two of the three axes is 120°. Isometric projection is one of the projections used in drafting engineering drawings.

In isometric projections the direction of viewing is such that the three axes of space appear equally foreshortened, of which the displayed angles among them and also the scale of foreshortening are universally known. However in creating a final, isometric instrument drawing, in most cases a full-size scale, i.e., without using a foreshortening factor, is employed to good effect because the resultant distortion is difficult to perceive.

Isometric drawings are drawn without perspective. It measn that parallel lines do not converge upon a vanishing point like they do in perspective drawings. Isometric projection simulates what a camera would see at infinite zoom from a distance infinitely far away.

As a big fan of isometric projection, I'm offended that you would simply slap on the label in order to sell games.

I'm offended that you consider yourself a big fan of isometric projection. Do you think that anyone that would be "duped" into buying this game that fasley uses the term isometric gives two shits if it isn't really isometric?

Lets picture this scenario in our heads:

"All right, I'm a huge fan of anything isometric!!!! Let me check whats out there I can buy!!! AWESOME DUDE! An Isometric rpg called "Age of Decadence." I'm buying it just because it said isomtric without even looking at a screenshot!!!!" (downloads game, hits play) "What the Fuck (I mean WTF)!!!! This doesn't fit the definition of isometric. This is fucking bullshit!!!!! Curse you Iron Tower. Curse you to the darkest pits of Hell!!! I knew I should have looked at one of the many screenshots available to see before I purchased, but I'm just such a huge fan of isometric. Damn damn damn!!! Greedy, money grubing, marketing lies."

No one that gives a shit if meets the exact isometric definition, and everyone that does has plenty opf screenshots to see if it really is or not. No one is being duped out of their money. Relax, and go watch Star Trek you fucking idiot.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't get it though. Isometric has a clearly defined meaning. AoD is, of course, not isometric. Games like Equinox or Solstice are isometric.

Just change that, VD. Say it has a free camera or something.

Then people will get confused about the free camera thing, start asking all kinda questions, I'll explain patiently every fucking time, and then they will say "why didn't you say isometric?". Then I'll have to explain in geek that isometric actually means ... [insert a scientific explanation or two here], and so on and so on. So I figured it would be easier just to call it isometric from the beginning.

You can also see this thread for more "isometric" nonsense... I meant discussions:
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=18473

@VD - you should probably change the website description though. It is wrong. You could go with "isometric-style", or similar, but "isometric" it isn't.
Of course you could leave it, but that puts you in the dumbing-down-and-lying-for-marketing-purposes camp. Is that where you want to be?

Abso-fucking-lutely. That's where the money is.

Overall though, isometric is a concept. When you say that game X is isometric, it gives people an idea of what the view is *like*. It means that the game is not first-person or third-person. It does NOT mean that the game's angle is defined with an amazing precision.

 

[Severian Silk]

I'm offended that you consider yourself a big fan of isometric projection. Do you think that anyone that would be "duped" into buying this game that fasley uses the term isometric gives two shits if it isn't really isometric?

If it's not a feature that anyone wants, then why list it as a feature in the first place? What's the value of telling people the game is isometric if noone thinks it's important?

 

[galsiah]

Overall though, isometric is a concept. When you say that game X is isometric, it gives people an idea of what the view is *like*. It means that the game is not first-person or third-person. It does NOT mean that the game's angle is defined with an amazing precision.

Sure - and when you say game X is an RPG, it means that the game has stats, levels, monsters to kill and loot.
Of course you might want it to mean that the game involves some kind of roleplaying, choices+consequences etc. - just as I'd rather that isometric meant what it actually means.

You might be using "isometric" in the most communicative sense - but you're still using it in the RPG = foozles, xp and loot sense. Perhaps that's the reasonable thing to do - but then it's not really consistent to criticize Bethesda marketing for dumbing down on commonly understood ideas of "RPG", "Immersion", "Non-linearity"....

 

[Roqua]

Because most people, besides big fans of isometric projection, that even care about the perspective of the game, learned the term isometric from playing games, and will look at screenshots and play the game really believing its isometric, totally oblivious to the fact that it isn't. Or, in my case, just don't give a fuck.

How many more people would be pissed if he didn't say the exact term isometric, giving them the clear idea that it will have a fixed perspective and will not fully utilize 3d with twirly camera? A lot more. Using the word isometric clearly gives the idea of what the perspective will be, and if people happen to be huge fans of isometric projection, the screenshots that aren't hidden by any means, will be enough of a clue of if the game is actually really isomtric, or just isometricish.

This is a non-issue.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm offended that you consider yourself a big fan of isometric projection. Do you think that anyone that would be "duped" into buying this game that fasley uses the term isometric gives two shits if it isn't really isometric?

If it's not a feature that anyone wants, then why list it as a feature in the first place? What's the value of telling people the game is isometric if noone thinks it's important?

You are confusing literal meaning with commonly accepted meaning.

You might be using "isometric" in the most communicative sense - but you're still using it in the RPG = foozles, xp and loot sense. Perhaps that's the reasonable thing to do - but then it's not really consistent to criticize Bethesda marketing for dumbing down on commonly understood ideas of "RPG", "Immersion", "Non-linearity"....

That's not what I criticize Bethesda for.

 

[galsiah]

That's not what I criticize Bethesda for.

You do implicitly when you go with the "If they put RPG on the box, we expect an RPG..." line. They are providing the common idea of an RPG - they're just not including what you and I might expect from an RPG.

Of course you criticise some aspects that are just shit regardless of RPG status - as I do too. Then there are the blatant contradictions, which are fair game. However, much of the criticism on this site, yours included, is based on the fact that we're expecting an RPG (our idea of one). If the "RPG" label on their box is merely a marketing lie conforming to the common misunderstanding of "RPG", it doesn't make sense to criticise on the basis of roleplaying expectations.

 

[Sovy Kurosei]

I can't believe some of you assholes are arguing that AoD should be called isometric-like instead of isometric. It is such a trivial issue and it can be easily demonstrated what Iron Tower means when they use the term by showing screenshots of the game. Roqua illustrated that rather well.

@VD - you should probably change the website description though. It is wrong. You could go with "isometric-style", or similar, but "isometric" it isn't.
Of course you could leave it, but that puts you in the dumbing-down-and-lying-for-marketing-purposes camp. Is that where you want to be?

This is so dishonest of you to insinuate that because Iron Tower calls AoD isometric that it is as bad as the other companies that actually do dumb down their games and lie through their teeth.

Y'know, VD, just change it. It hurts me to read some of these comments and it is so easy to make it all go away, right? Do it for the children.

 

[Roqua]

I have a good compromise, why not call it Isometrish?

 

[Mayday]

Isomatrix

 

[galsiah]

This is so dishonest of you to insinuate that because Iron Tower calls AoD isometric that it is as bad as the other companies that actually do dumb down their games and lie through their teeth.

I'm simply saying that he's dumbing down the language in his marketing - which is exactly what he's doing. In this one respect, he's doing the same kind of thing as Bethesda.

Having a dodgy moustache in the style of Hitler doesn't make someone guilty of genocide. Yet the fact that they aren't guilty of genocide doesn't make their moustache look any better. They're every bit as bad as Hitler with respect to moustache style.


Of course this issue isn't important. I just consider it a strange description.

 

[Roqua]

Do you really believe he stated Isometric for all the extra money it wll make instead of just clearly communicating the perpective that the game will provide?

galsiah: just like the rpg debate, it isn't the devs perpetuating it, its the fans. Look at how many players say and want Stalker to be an rpg. Its insane. But this is just technical mumbo jumbo. If you showed the AoD screenshots to people, probably 99% of them would say Isometric (if they even knew the word). AT this point in time, it would be dishonest of VD to not call it isometric, since thats what 99% of the people believe that even care.