I'm at the end of my rope on this one: BG2.

[jiujitsu]

Why do I like BG2? It builds on BG1 which was my first RPG. It has a very cool villain and I get to visit the Underdark, fight dragons, see an Elven city and slay vampires. It has plenty of side quests and, to me, very fun combat. There are plenty of different classes to choose from and each offers a different experience throughout the game. I don't really know what you mean when you say it is a piece of shit, but I suppose your first RPG wasn't BG1 and thus you have a different view of how an RPG should play out. I belive the saying goes "To each his own."

 

[MMXI]

almodblight made me doubt the merit of BG1 and attempting, for who knows how many times now, to play BG2 I recall the solid encounter design of Icewind Dale and came to wonder just how this is done properly.

Icewind Dale only has good encounter design in the eyes of storyfags and realismfags who think that having more than one enemy type per dungeon breaks the immersion. In the realm of the sane, however, Baldur's Gate II has far greater encounter design. It doesn't matter if you can find wolfweres, golems, vampires, trolls, shadows, orcs, elementals and dragons in a single dungeon if it results in a fun and varied game experience.

 

[Excidium]

almodblight made me doubt the merit of BG1 and attempting, for who knows how many times now, to play BG2 I recall the solid encounter design of Icewind Dale and came to wonder just how this is done properly.

Icewind Dale only has good encounter design in the eyes of storyfags and realismfags who think that having more than one enemy type per dungeon breaks the immersion. In the realm of the sane, however, Baldur's Gate II has far greater encounter design. It doesn't matter if you can find wolfweres, golems, vampires, trolls, shadows, orcs, elementals and dragons in a single dungeon if it results in a fun and varied game experience.

It doesn't matter that you have so many different monsters when every encounter works the same way.

What I like in IWD is that the encounters have good progression, in BG 2 it is always big ass groups of the same monsters crowded in rooms separated by trapped corridoors.

Granted I never got too far in IWD, maybe it gets shitty later, I don't know.

 

[MMXI]

It doesn't matter that you have so many different monsters when every encounter works the same way.

What I like in IWD is that the encounters have good progression, in BG 2 it is always big ass groups of the same monsters crowded in rooms separated by trapped corridoors.

Granted I never got too far in IWD, maybe it gets shitty later, I don't know.

Sounds like you've never played Icewind Dale. At least it's better than Icewind Dale 2 where you fight the same enemy throughout entire chapters.

 

[Excidium]

You start fighting goblins (I think there were orcs too), then an ogre, yetis, some cleric bitch, shades, giants with some cultists, then lizardmen and beetles...I stopped at that point, but I still have the saves here.

I don't what's to complain about the enemy variety, really.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

What I like in IWD is that the encounters have good progression, in BG 2 it is always big ass groups of the same monsters crowded in rooms separated by trapped corridoors.

Granted I never got too far in IWD, maybe it gets shitty later, I don't know.

You're mixing up BG2 and Icewind Dale's encounters methinks. "Big ass groups of the same monsters" is par for the course in Icewind Dale 1. Undead in Kresselack's Tomb, Lizardmen on Floor 1 of Dragons Eye, Cold Wights on Floor 3, Yuan Ti on Floor 5, Shadowed *insert race here" all throughout the Severed Hand, the two Salamander locations, the two HERE BE LOTS OF GIANTS caves, and I haven't even mentioned all of the challenge-less filler content that shows up starting in Upper Dorn's Deep. Set piece encounters aren't that great either. They start off strong enough, what with the Priestess and her Yeti, or the Fourth Floor of Dragon's Eye, but quickly devolve into big bad with lots of HP and immunities and maybe a token special ability if you're lucky. This isn't BG2 with boss enemies sporting a ton of abilities they make frequent use of (albeit in a cheesy way sometimes; e.g. dragons casting heal); hell, the endboss only has high attack power, casts a dispel on combat starting, and spams a direct (fire) damage ability. Lame.

 

[Excidium]

Good thing I stopped after clearing the first level on Dragon's eye then.

 

[Roguey]

In the realm of the sane, however, Baldur's Gate II has far greater encounter design. It doesn't matter if you can find wolfweres, golems, vampires, trolls, shadows, orcs, elementals and dragons in a single dungeon if it results in a fun and varied game experience.

I can agree with this but at the same time I think creating fun dungeons with plausible ecologies and consistent internal logical is a worthy goal particularly since it's harder to pull off.

 

[Surf Solar]

Hm, I would agree that the encounters in IWD I can be a bit boring in terms of diversity of monsters, but in the second one I didn't have these issues. Ok, I am only halfway through the game now (I am at this monks castle) but each area had some unique and varying set of monsters.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I really liked the ice temple in IWDII. It was a very good pacing in there, reminded me a bit of that mansion in BGII where all the insane mages get imprisonend (when it comes to puzzles 'n shit)

Baldurs Gate II indeed had some areas filled with almost the entire manual, but I didn't bother me THAT much, as long as it fun (and this should always be the number 1 in terms of importance). The only rage inducing thing for me in BGII was that dungeon filled with undead and vampires, but that's rather because I fucking hate fighting vampires in D&D (their level drain.... )

 

[DwarvenFood]

Yea that's the point I stopped. May return to the game one day.

 

[octavius]

For me the Beholder and Mind Flayer caves in the Underdark was the stopping point. I've played BG2 a few times but only completed it once.
Throne of Bhaal I rage quit when I had to defeat Irencus for what I think was the fifth or sixth time.

 

[MMXI]

For me the Beholder and Mind Flayer caves in the Underdark was the stopping point. I've played BG2 a few times but only completed it once.

You don't have to do those two.

Throne of Bhaal I rage quit when I had to defeat Irencus for what I think was the fifth or sixth time.

When was this?

 

[Sceptic]

I think he had Ascension installed, otherwise you don't fight Irenicus in TOB IIRC.

 

[octavius]

Throne of Bhaal I rage quit when I had to defeat Irencus for what I think was the fifth or sixth time.

When was this?

The first challenge, after meeting another one who refuses to die - Sarevok. I assume he's not the "real" Irenicus, though.

 

[MMXI]

Throne of Bhaal I rage quit when I had to defeat Irencus for what I think was the fifth or sixth time.

When was this?

The first challenge, after meeting another one who refuses to die - Sarevok. I assume he's not the "real" Irenicus, though.

Sceptic must be right. I don't remember ever fighting Irenicus in Throne of Bhaal. You do fight Sarevok though.

 

[octavius]

Throne of Bhaal I rage quit when I had to defeat Irencus for what I think was the fifth or sixth time.

When was this?

The first challenge, after meeting another one who refuses to die - Sarevok. I assume he's not the "real" Irenicus, though.

Sceptic must be right. I don't remember ever fighting Irenicus in Throne of Bhaal. You do fight Sarevok though.

He appears at the end of a long fight where you start off with Kobold Commandos and Doppelgangers, then on to Ogre Magi, Saguahan (sp?) and Gnoll Captains, then Drows, before Jon Irenicus appears.
It is possible he appears courtesy of a mod, but I don't know which one. None of the ReadMes mention this.

 

[MMXI]

Throne of Bhaal I rage quit when I had to defeat Irencus for what I think was the fifth or sixth time.

When was this?

The first challenge, after meeting another one who refuses to die - Sarevok. I assume he's not the "real" Irenicus, though.

Sceptic must be right. I don't remember ever fighting Irenicus in Throne of Bhaal. You do fight Sarevok though.

He appears at the end of a long fight where you start off with Kobold Commandos and Doppelgangers, then on to Ogre Magi, Saguahan (sp?) and Gnoll Captains, then Drows, before Jon Irenicus appears.
It is possible he appears courtesy of a mod, but I don't know which one. None of the ReadMes mention this.

And a quick ctrl+f through DSimpson's Baldur's Gate II walkthrough suggestions that he isn't in vanilla ToB. Probably Ascension as Sceptic said.

 

[abnaxus]

Throne of Bhaal I rage quit when I had to defeat Irencus for what I think was the fifth or sixth time.

When was this?

The first challenge, after meeting another one who refuses to die - Sarevok. I assume he's not the "real" Irenicus, though.

Sceptic must be right. I don't remember ever fighting Irenicus in Throne of Bhaal. You do fight Sarevok though.

He appears at the end of a long fight where you start off with Kobold Commandos and Doppelgangers, then on to Ogre Magi, Saguahan (sp?) and Gnoll Captains, then Drows, before Jon Irenicus appears.
It is possible he appears courtesy of a mod, but I don't know which one. None of the ReadMes mention this.

And a quick ctrl+f through DSimpson's Baldur's Gate II walkthrough suggestions that he isn't in vanilla ToB. Probably Ascension as Sceptic said.

Nah, he's right. If your character is of non-evil alignment, you'll fight an Irenicus clone (a very weak clone, though) at the end of the first challenge in the pocket plane.

 

[Carrion]

Nah, he's right. If your character is of non-evil alignment, you'll fight an Irenicus clone (a very weak clone, though) at the end of the first challenge in the pocket plane.

Does this happen in vanilla Throne of Bhaal? I think my character has always turned neutral evil when starting ToB regardless of her original alignment. I don't know if this applies to paladins, though.

 

[Ringhausen]

BG2 did go overboard with the encounters. I mean look at the Planar Sphere which is a really good quest and dungeon in my opinion. You have to fight:
*golems
*cannibalistic halflings
*cowled wizards
*the mage that built the sphere
*demons outside

Which is all good and fun. But in between there are also mephits, fire elementals, salamanders, beholders and sahuagin I guess the Icewind Dale method would've spammed the same golem encounter at you 5 times, which also sucks. But theres TOO MUCH COMBAT, srsly. That's why I've never managed to finish BG2 a second time.

 

[octavius]

I can confirm that my character is Chaotic Neutral, and that I do NOT have Ascension installed.

 

[abnaxus]

Nah, he's right. If your character is of non-evil alignment, you'll fight an Irenicus clone (a very weak clone, though) at the end of the first challenge in the pocket plane.

Does this happen in vanilla Throne of Bhaal? I think my character has always turned neutral evil when starting ToB regardless of her original alignment. I don't know if this applies to paladins, though.

Vanilla, yeh. I don't remember who pops up instead of Irenicus if you're evil. Bodhi, maybe?

 

[MMXI]

I mostly play good and have never had to fight Irenicus in Throne of Bhaal. I also can't find any information about fighting him in the pocket plane in Throne of Bhaal either.

 

[LoPan]

"To each his own."

Quite right. I did come to retract the 'piece of shit' statement as it is neither fair, reasonable or true in any way. It was a hyperbolic reaction and obviously something I failed to stop and think on in my pointless frustration.

My first RPG, I believe, was Fallout1 and I suppose that would set a certain standard for a turn-based story-centric RPG.

I can see why someone might find amusement and perhaps, at times, even delight in BG2. What irks me is when it is claimed to be one of the greatest RPG's of all time in which case from my experience and taste it is, so far, one of the worst IE games, no need to even breach the greater spectrum with it.

----------------

The discussion on enemy variety does seem to haunt this topic in regular intervals. I really don't see why you can't have a game where you fight nothing but goblins as long as the context is correct. Variety on its own is pointless. In Icewind Dale the monsters were appropriate to the location and you were never caught speculating that perhaps dragons would keep hobgoblins as servants (entirely ignoring how in goodness name that came about or why the vampires are not subverting the hobgoblins and the hobgoblins not murdering each other from within, as they are want to do, or any other of the strange situations that spring up when mixing so many types of creatures let alone concerning the way these groups function on their lonesome).

Icewind Dale is a hack and slash sort of game, story is not its strong point but the encounter design is good and the difficulty curve is solid so it did pull off what it was supposed to be about with above average success, in my opinion, but BG2 is not linear and it is not a hack and slash, it is very much about a story and a world and the stories, people and situations within that world and there context to what you murder, destroy and vanquish is vital yet BG2, so far as I have gone and heard, ignores this with a frankly baffling temerity.


Oh yes,
Johannes,

Biffing worked beautifully.

 

[bussinrounds]

Idk, i wouldn't wanna play a game where i was only fighting goblins the whole time. I don't give a fuck how "in context" it is.

But i do agree though, when shit is just thrown out there, out of place, that's pretty fuckin retarded.