I bet you're kicking yourself for not getting SoU now!!!

[Psilon]

The problem, however, is that the only class they've ever done anything resembling tactical combat with is the wizard/sorcerer. Look at BG2. Fighters just run up and pound stuff, rangers stay back and shoot stuff, clerics heal stuff, but the wizards have to pierce every protection and cast spells the whole time.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I don't have that much of a problem wth the concept "Stone of Recall" per se unless it negatively influences the CR. My suggestion is, don't allow using the SoR during a fight. Or make using the SoR during a fight less "rewarding". Slightly increase the time to use the SoR, so in battle you will have three swords stuck in your guts before being teleported back, hence making the SoR uninsteresting for the use in battles.

The big problem with that is three swords in the gut is 18 seconds of real time.

 

[Sabotai]

The problem, however, is that the only class they've ever done anything resembling tactical combat with is the wizard/sorcerer.

True, but still (tactical) combat in BG2 was waaaaaaay better than the combat in NWN. I was actually scared of lichs and other magic users. If you unthinkingly rushed into a fight, big chance that you were going to be toast in a couple of minutes. When suddenly encountering a magic user in NWN I could lazily take off and open my backpack, rummage through it searching for my favorite dagger, hesitate whether I it might be better to use my mace this time and still kick his sorry butt without getting scratched.

The big problem with that is three swords in the gut is 18 seconds of real time.

Hehe, maybe even longer with NWN; but still, increasing the time necessary to use the SoR serves as a deterrent to the ("unfair") tactic of teleporting yourself in and out of battle.

 

[Psilon]

Actually, I've seen the solution to "unfair" teleport tactics:
Make the SoR open a conversation. Even something like "Do you wish to teleport back to town?" would work, because conversations won't open in battle by default. Players can still run back to town as much as they'd like, but they need to run away from combat first.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I just wonder why they didn't make a world map for NWN. I'm guessing it's a problem with the engine itself, but a world map would have beaten the hell out of the SoR. World maps can't be accessed until an exit grid like Fallout did it, and that pretty much ends the idea of teleporting to and from a Dragon to wipe it out. It also serves the same, basic purpose of eliminating the annoying walking and backtracking.

 

[Sabotai]

I'm guessing it's a problem with the engine itself, but a world map would have beaten the hell out of the SoR.

That would be my guess as well. I wonder if BioWare is going to do a complete engine overhaul for NWN2. A couple of reviewers already commented on the fact that the Aurora engine isn't ageing well. Seeing all the engine limitations (no world map, no cloaks/pointy hats, no Z-axis, no mountains, the generic effect of the tile based system, lack of party option in SP etc.) makes me think it will be difficult for BioWare not to do an overhaul.

 

[Psilon]

Even the Infinity Engine had a world map. Then again, the IE also had the "Pocket Plane" ability, which was effectively a Stone of Recall without even the minimal gold cost.

As for tiles, they're not bad in principle. The trick is to provide more tiles and tilesets. If they had provided, say, triple the tiles in the existing sets things wouldn't have looked quite so generic.

 

[Jed]

As for tiles, they're not bad in principle. The trick is to provide more tiles and tilesets. If they had provided, say, triple the tiles in the existing sets things wouldn't have looked quite so generic.

And this is one of the biggest problems I have with the whole NWN mod community thing: they all look and feel pretty much the same. For me this pretty much negates all the "look at what you can do" hype...

 

[Psilon]

While I've seen some pretty neat-looking tilesets on NWVault, the problem is that practically no one will use them. Very few people want to download 100MB of new content for just two or three modules.

Me, I can't believe that they're pushing Winter Rural as a worthy part of the $30 purchase price.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Even the Infinity Engine had a world map. Then again, the IE also had the "Pocket Plane" ability, which was effectively a Stone of Recall without even the minimal gold cost.

I had so much gold in NWN, it never bothered me to use the SoR.

As for tiles, they're not bad in principle. The trick is to provide more tiles and tilesets. If they had provided, say, triple the tiles in the existing sets things wouldn't have looked quite so generic.

The big problem they have with the tiles is that they wanted them big so they'd be easy to use. That's why they look so generic. Even towns in Arcanum, which has been generally panned for it's thematic graphics, looked less generic because there were lots of building types, lots of trinkets to spruce buildings up with, and so on.

Another problem I had with the tiles is how tiny the buildings were. That cuts down on the walking time, but it just gave me a bland feel about them like they were just boxes with the word BIULTINKS scrawled on the side.

And this is one of the biggest problems I have with the whole NWN mod community thing: they all look and feel pretty much the same. For me this pretty much negates all the "look at what you can do" hype...

Good point.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Even the Infinity Engine had a world map. Then again, the IE also had the "Pocket Plane" ability, which was effectively a Stone of Recall without even the minimal gold cost.

Then again, the Pocket Plane wasn't related to the engine per se, but to the game's story.

 

[Voss]

Don't forget the new skills in SoU:

Tumble (to fix (or rather help survive) the random attacks of opportunity you get for the automatic shifting around you do while waiting for the six seconds to pass in combat)

Appraise: which despite what some dumb@ss at bioware may think, is not a synonym for haggle (which is what it actually does since it affects the prices you pay at stores)


or the lack of spellcasting prestige classes, since they hard-coded the standard classes to be the only spell casters possible in the engine.

 

[Elwro]

Appraise: which despite what some dumb@ss at bioware may think, is not a synonym for haggle (which is what it actually does since it affects the prices you pay at stores)

ADOM handles appraisal quite well imho... After having an item for some time you get a message of type "You have a mediocre feeling about the green dagger" and you have to judge what this means.

or the lack of spellcasting prestige classes, since they hard-coded the standard classes to be the only spell casters possible in the engine.

that's really funny. Can you point me to the resources from which you got this info? I want to read something more about it.

 

[Sabotai]

or the lack of spellcasting prestige classes, since they hard-coded the standard classes to be the only spell casters possible in the engine.

that's really funny. Can you point me to the resources from which you got this info? I want to read something more about it.

This thread has a few (with emphasis on few) bits on the subject.

Little quote:

They can't do prestige classes with their own spell casting ability.
They also can't do prestige classes that add +1 level to their current spell casting ability.
The engine just wont work that way without a lot of revision of core stuff.
The main reason for this is that they designed the engine before prestige classes even existed.

But IIRC, BioWare always argued it was impossible for them to implement access to henchman inventory due to engine limitations. Then they released SoU with access to henchman inventory.

 

[Voss]

There are quite a few threads discussing the spellcaster issues on the official bioware boards. Or there were they are currently buried under the ton of threads whining about the prestige classes.

I'll try to find them though. What annoyed me was that the bioware people just kept saying that the game was built that way. As if, somehow, they weren't involved in the building process- it just showed up that way. They also mention (a lot) that when NWN was in development a lot of 3e D&D wasn't done yet, and they didn't know about prestige classes at all. Why thats a reason to hard code anything (particularly something so subject to change as classes) I don't know.

I'll find some links though, and post them.

Heres one (hope the link works. the moderator Syrsuro comments on it:
http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=207000&forum=69&highlight=classes

Theres also a long subject titled Prestige Classes 2.0 in the SoU forum
http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=197235&forum=69&highlight=classes

I'm not sure these links work... the NWN forum doen't like my system setup and I get a white screen with partial text quite a lot. But the second topic goes on at length about prestige classes and the issues surrounding them.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

This is what I hate about BioWare and their fanboys...

So sad it is that the casters have been forgotten or is it just a bad excuse because its too difficult to make a caster prestige class??

Anyway, this just means that the dear melee classes will be even more powerful. Prestige classes = power

I WANT 2 B TEH POWAH D00D!

Ugh.. Munchkinism, and BioWare overly caters to munchkins.

This is also why you will never see Psionics in NWN... It's not feasible to alter the engine to make it possible...

Which is why BioWare are shit coders.. Adding psionics to QuakeIII would be easy, but not to their D&D moddable game.. hah hah!

 

[Volourn]

They never said it was impossible. They said it was impossible without major re-workings. People also tend to foget that NWN was made before the Epic Rulebook was released.

As for appraise. I agree 100%. It should be called haggle; not appraise. Complete silliness.

 

[Sabotai]

They never said it was impossible. They said it was impossible without major re-workings. People also tend to foget that NWN was made before the Epic Rulebook was released.

But even so, for an engine which is supposed to be a solid base for a lot of future expansions and community input, wouldn't a clever designer have allowed the possibility to easily include additional spellcasters?

 

[Sabotai]

As to the original topic of buying SoU, I read this thread on the Bio forums in which people are having serious problems with SecureRom. Looks like Atari screwed up big time for the second time. The exact same thing happened with NWN forcing BioWare to release a patch which got rid of SecureRom. I really hope Atari learns from this and doesn't include SecureRom with ToEE. This thread has a pretty funny review of SoU, especially the first part.

 

[Astromarine]

First off, no programmer would willingly close off possible avenues for expansion. Ever.
Second of all, it was Bioware's responsibility to be informed about upcoming WotC products and plan accordingly. I mean, no console comes out without several games already out for it, because companies plan ahead. and Bio couldn't do it with sourcebooks?

ToEE will be 3.5, and AFAIK development of 3.5 rules in the game started way before the rules were published.

 

[Volourn]

Huh? It's not BIO's responsibility to do anything of the sort. It's not like they lied to people about how tough it was to make magically inclined prestige classes. They don't owe people this at all. You tend to forget that 3E itself wasn't even out when they were making NWN; let alone epic rules or 3.5.

Sabotai, yeah,. the securom stuff sucks. I'm lucky that I never get hit with that. Heh.

Why would they have included additional spellcasters? They had them covered. Prestige classes are extra stuff; not neccessary. The engine is apparantly a solid enough base that they're making at least one more expansion which is more than any IE game got.

People, once again, forget that NWN was being made made even before 3E was being published. I think they did a good job preparing for the future under the circumstances. It's one thing to expect a company to prepare for possible additions in the future; it'sanother to ask them to predict the future. Besdies, as stated, none of these things, are impossible to ask. It just will take major re-working. Just like there's a chance that HOTU will have multiple henchmen, and super polygon beholders..

Go figure.

Go figure.

 

[Elwro]

OK, this seems a good place to post a fragment of one thread on Bioware forums. Good joke imo.

montana_boy:
"Have seen several posts advising tech questions, bug problems and the like to be addressed to “Atari Support.” So I cruised on over to the Atari web-site and…

(this is hilarious, really)...

Shadows of Underentide is categorized as a “strategy” game and “to be released soon.”

Good luck to anyone trying to get support for SoU from Atari – who dosn’t seem to know that the game is an RPG and has been released!

lol"

LordBloodmane:
"ROFL x 40. Maybe they are from a country where it hasn't been released yet...and a country where strategy means RPG....what?"

Malkut:
"Or, here's a thought, maybe they're retarded."


taken from http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... 4&forum=69

 

[Sabotai]

Well, Volourn, I have to admire your tenacity in defending NWN. And with SoU you even have a few converts.

As to the enigine limitations; why is BioWare able to include regular prestige classes and no spellcaster prestige classes? That's either bad programming or bad planning ahead (maybe both). I really think, given the goal of NWN to create unlimited content by BioWare and community years into the future, that they should have created an engine as flexible as possible. One major requirement of such an engine would be easy adding of new classes. I'm not a big D&D conoisseur, but I have the impression that new classes and other content is constantly being added. Bio should have taken these ongoing D&D developments into account.

 

[Volourn]

You make it sound like it's an impossiblity to add spell casting prestige classes. It isn't. It is very possible. And, I predict, if there is a third expansion pack (big IF); I wouldn't be surprise if they'll make an appearance.

As for defending NWN. I wouldn't say dfeending the game per se except when I think it's worthd efending. Some things are indefensible. ie. The millions (exaggeration) of crates with ph@t lewt was plainly silly in the original. Not to mention the sheer drop of choices in SOU from ch1 which has a lot to the inerlude and ch2 which have very few.

Anyways, I like defending games I like. Be it NWN, BG, or FO.

That's one of the reasons why I like this place. There are many people I can discuss NWN with who do bring up good points about the various NWN weaknesses - many, of which, I agree with. Keeps me on my toes.

Not to mention, I love a good debate; no matter the subject.

 

[Voss]

Well, according to the bioware developers on the official bioware forums, it isn't possible to add spellcasting prestige classes.
Not classes with their own spell list, or classes that add +1 to existing spellcaster level

I don't know exactly why (something about it being hardcoded in several different places in the code), but thats what they've said over and over again in response to complaints.

And the last time I was reading their boards (before SoU was released) they weren't sure if they could get it working for XP2.