I bet you're kicking yourself for not getting SoU now!!!

[Binary]

I didn't say that wasn't possible, but it's definitely a good action. Didn't Raistlin kill Lord Ariakas for a good reason?

Just like a good guy killing another good guy is an evil action. Hmmmm, interesting, we never see that on fantasy books, except on Stephen Donaldson books I guess.

 

[Ultron]

I just got back from the Bioware forums....fanboys are rabid there....they're having more problems with the SecureRom not recognizing their CD-ROMs.....so Bioware is telling them to update their firmware. :shock: Needless to say, they're pissed off....reminds me of the POR2 forums...man was that some funny postings.

BTW, I'm new to this forum and I must say, I'm very impressed, both with the knowledge and the humor of these threads.....

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I just got back from the Bioware forums....fanboys are rabid there....they're having more problems with the SecureRom not recognizing their CD-ROMs.....so Bioware is telling them to update their firmware. :shock: Needless to say, they're pissed off....reminds me of the POR2 forums...man was that some funny postings.

I've always found it funny when developers and publishers make dealing with a legitimately purchased product more annoying than warezing it. Of course, the main issue with this is the simple fact that many copy protection schemes cause these issues. I used to have a DVD-ROM that caused SafeDisc to hang the system, which really annoyed the hell out of me.

BTW, I'm new to this forum and I must say, I'm very impressed, both with the knowledge and the humor of these threads.....

Welcome aboard.

 

[Volourn]

The others have both; I have neither.

Don't believe me; just ask them.

And, oh, hi.

 

[Voss]

Raistlin wasn't even vaguely chaotic...far to organized and methodically for that.

Astromarine- the religious overtones have less to do with the setting as a whole and more to do with Hickman's rather...strong...religious beliefs. Thumb through the Annotated Chronicles for his comments...he constantly brings up his own beliefs and how they affected this or that in the books. And, of course, how superior his beliefs are.

Binary- actually evil turning on evil for its own gain was one of the major themes of the original DL books. It doesn't make it any less evil. Fizban almost bludgeons Tanis to death with this particular anvil at the end of Spring Dawning. And he arranged to have Ariakas killed for personal reasons- he was the strongest evil mage at the time. And Raist had other ideas of who should fill that slot. The fact that it benefited others was a way of repaying some debts he felt he had, and a way of getting his chosen tool (Tanis) to do it.

Raistlin was probably one of the best written evil characters I've ever seen. He chooses his path, and he's no where near one-dimensional. He has problems, issues, hang-ups. He also has his own code of morality, which while different from the majority in his society, is a definite part of his character. He is also capable of kindness and compassion, particularly to those who really deserve it and don't threaten him. This doesn't make him any less ruthless or evil in pursuit of his goals, however. It also makes him a far better villain than the ravening loonies you normally get...ones heroes can simply kill without even thinking about it and complement themselves on a job well done.

If people keep doing games with evil in them, I'd much rather see this kind of evil, which can provoke thought and discussion rather than the standard Lord of Evil. Which provokes a 'one one appears, kill it' mentality that gets a little old after a while.

Mind you, I'd much rather see a more interesting 'our interests' vs. 'their interests' vs. a bunch of other peoples interests, and see how far people are willing to go. Gives a range for characterization from Noble and Heroic to Vile and Decadent and reasons for doing so.

 

[Franz_Schubert]

Ok, before I start this post, I want to make sure that eveyrone understands that this post is not meant to incite any grudges or flames. I am simply trying to correct a few major mistakes that I noticed while reading the posts in this thread on the topic of Dragonlance. It's obvious to me that you guys are having some problems with the facts, and I aim to help you all

I'm not sure if at any point he actually turns evil. After all, all he does want is to kill an evil Goddess to become a God himself

That's not true at all. He was going to kill Takhisis so that he could take her place among the gods, and from there he planned on killing the rest of the gods, one by one until he was the only god left in a world full of mortals. What about that doesn't sound evil to you?

Raist was evil because at a certain point he shifted his allegiance to the evil goddess, offering her his prayers and sacrifices so he could become more powerful than Astinus could make him.

Ok, when Raistlin shifted his allegiance (during his Test at the Tower of High Sorcery at Wayreth), he shifted to the black robes, which means that he now serves Nuitari, the god of evil magic. I'm assuming that by "evil goddess" you meant Takhisis, which would be incorrect, although Nuitari is her son. And know that Raistlin never made any sacrifices to anyone, even the gods, until he died his first time.

Also, Astinus is the avatar of Gillean, the main god of neutrality, and had nothing to do with Raistlin.

Nevertheless he can't be considered "evil". He kills/mistreats as many evil characters as good characters. Remember Lord Ariakas? Fistandantilus?

Your definition of "evil" is from RPG's. Dragonlance has a MUCH more complex definition of evil, and people on the internet who have written essays on the subject can define it for you better than me. Raistlin could kill every evil person in Krynn, and that wouldn't make him any "less evil". Raistlin, although not COMPLETELY devoid of compassion, almost never does anything unless it's for his own personal gain. Raistlin killed Fistandantilus for several reasons. One reason was because he thought it would help him escape from the "time loop" that he was caught in (where he was doomed to repeat Fistandantilus's mistakes at Skullcap). Another reason is so he could "absorb" his power, and another reason was simply self-defense (Fistandantilus was about to displace Raistlin's sould with his own so he could continue to live in a new powerful body, remember the Bloodstone).

Even his actions to please the Evil Goddess are only done because he wishes to become more powerful himself.

Ok, you almost had this right, except he was trying to please Fistandantilus, because he is the one who was giving him the power. Remember, Raistlin HATES Takhisis more than anything.

Raistlin had a destiny marked for him. As he was doing the Test, the wassisname (white robed mage responsible for the Tests) says that he was to be their Sword. Sword of what, to strike whom, and who had this idea? What if originally the killing of Takhisis had been an idea of Paladine, gone wrong? Wouldn't that make Raislin a good character instead?

Par-Salian was the Master of the Tower at that point, and he purposely made the test so hard that he knew it would kill Raistlin (he didn't count on Fistandantilus granting Raistlin enough power to pass, in exchange for switching alliegences), so whatever he was saying about destiny shouldn't be believed.

And Paladine would never want Takhisis to die (although of course Takhisis would kill Paladine if she had the chance).

You *cannot*, in the setting, be evil without being involved with Takhesis, just as you can't be good without involving Paladine in it.

What the hell? Please know that I mean no offense, but this is seriously the worst load of bull shit I have ever heard about Dragonlance, anywhere.

Of course, all this makes Dragonlance the single most stupid setting for a fantasy novel I have ever read, even though I enjoyed the stories themselves when I read them.

"Dragonlance" is the entire world, not just the setting, or ruleset. Having said that, I agree that it would make fora stupid setting. Fortunately, what you were describing is not Dragonlance, it is something else entirely that I have never heard of.

By my reasoning:

Guys that kill good guys are bad guys
Guys that kill bad guys are good guys
Guys that kill both bad and good guys are neutral. This is basically what Raistlin did throughout the books.

Sigh.... Which books are you talking about? None that I read...

And to Voss... Thank you for knowing what you're talking about, and I share this sentiment of yours:

If people keep doing games with evil in them, I'd much rather see this kind of evil, which can provoke thought and discussion rather than the standard Lord of Evil. Which provokes a 'one one appears, kill it' mentality that gets a little old after a while.

Whew! In conclusion, I want to encourage everyone to read (or re-read, as the case may be) the Dragonlance Chronicles, and then the Legends Trilogy, because they truly are great trilogies. To those of you who have never read any Dragonlance, I say this: There is a great world that is simply waiting for you at your local bookstore, and that world is constantly growing and evolving and has more depth than any other fantasy world ever concieved, if you factor in all the extremely well-written books in it.

Granted, there are a few bad Dragonlance books, and if you really want a list to avoid, contact me and I'll give you a few tips on which not to buy

There are constantly new DL books being written, and there has been the addition of several excellent authors to the saga. Given the way most things in the entertainment industry these days have been selling out franchises and the overall quality level of things has gone down, especially in franchises that have been around for a long time, it is remarkable how DL has retained its integrety over the years... So there!

Good luck!

 

[Franz_Schubert]

You want a prime example? Raistlin, and Cameron Majere from the Dragonlance novels If you want lot sof detail on this; read their books.

Damn, now you are sending me on a quest to read some novels just to continue our discussion. Thou art evil, Volourn :twisted:

No, he's not being evil. Follow his advice and you'll see why