Review Have they got no shame? Oblivion and the media

[voodoo1man]

Judgement of value in art is not limited to the appraisal of the artform's hold or impact on the viewer; it can be evaluated based on its own intrinsic values, which in turn may or may not be conductive to aesthetical appeal.

Again, there is no issue being taken against preferences of others or how the game entertains them; but rather how the evaluation of certain elements found in the game are made in a faux objective light rather than subjective.
It's either about entertainment, which is clearly subjective, or intrinsic value which is clearly objective.

Not so clearly to me. You keep talking about intrinsic values of art(and games as a form of artistic expression). What determines the intrinsic value of a piece of art(a game) and why? What is the intrinsic value of Mona Lisa? Of Moon Sonata? What is the intrinsic value of PST?

Let's put it this way: art today is about pushing the boundaries and breaking the limits and doing really perverted things outside "the box." Oblivion is a groundbreaking and bold attempt at advancing art. So is a kinetic sculpture involving dirty urinals, flaccid bicycle wheels and loud midget sex.

 

[Levski 1912]

How is Oblivion "groundbreaking"? It might be a great game, but it doesn't look to me like it has introduced much compared to previous TES iterations, or that its graphics are any different from the current crop of 360/PC titles.

And it's definitely not art. No matter the quality, I doubt anyone could consider it "art".

 

[Kuato]

Oblivion hype ... microsoft knows the install base for the 360 hasnt reached anywhere close to expectations

paid off reviewers can go ahead and give oblivion a 110% out of 100 won't change the fact that the ps2 has a 80 million plus install base and the 360 might just be hitting a million or so anyday now mediocre games with great reviews wont sell consoles only great games will and as it stands even though the ps2 is technologically weaker than the xbox 360 it just has more to offer in the quality of games than the 360. Sony will prove someday that the Xbox 360 was a premature console

 

[Goliath]

How is Oblivion "groundbreaking"? It might be a great game, but it doesn't look to me like it has introduced much compared to previous TES iterations, or that its graphics are any different from the current crop of 360/PC titles.

And it's definitely not art. No matter the quality, I doubt anyone could consider it "art".

Oblivion IS art. Just like Rap music is art...

'nuff said.

 

[Section8]

Sony will prove someday that the Xbox 360 was a premature console.

Bah, everyone said that about the Dreamcast. Sega sure showed them.

 

[kingcomrade]

I really liked the Dreamcast. I'm really sorry that it bombed, it seemed really elegant. I thought at the time that it would be for the better and the Sega people would stop raping the Sonic series, but they just moved the fun to other consoles. Even the GBA, where they made side-scrollers, they managed to completely destroy what made Sonic fun. Ugh.

 

[yipsl]

Removing flight had little to do with Cliff Racers, but had everything to do with removal of things like Mark and Recall. It's vastly easiser to design game worlds when you nail down the movement of the player to fewer and fewer means. If the player can't scale walls, all wall are barriers and mazes become obstacles. If the player can't swim, all streams become barriers. The same thing goes for teleporting and flight.

The reason I picked that one out is because I did not believe his reasons for the culling of mark, recall, and levitate. I probably should have mentioned my doubt. Wasn't the reason that if the player did not enter through the city gates the city would not load?

The City cells were the alleged reason for no levitation. There is no reason for removal of mark, recall; and the reason for removal of jump and slowfall is even lamer. They have a spell that boosts acrobatics, and I will use it as I play a custom class Juggling Mage. However, I see the need for a jump and slowfall for those Mages who do not want to boost acrobatics and want to leave it at 5% or whatever the game allows as a starting bonus.

They are forcing everyone to experience Prince of Persia moments. That's not automatically bad, but it goes against their original comment that you can get through the game as a pure thief, a pure warrior or a pure mage.

They added perks, that are identical at each new level for every weapon including hand to hand.

And they all read the same in the manual which is hilarious.

Blunt/Blade/Handto hand. At master gains master forward power attack, with a chance to paralyze. Same for all three perks.

Oh boy. MSFD should really be roasted over this one. Pity he's been banned like a kid from coming here anymore...Todd Howard banned him. Or, I should say, 'expressly forbade him', from posting here.

I am surmising this, of course.

Who banned him? Bethsoft? I thought he was here as their representative to the wilds of cranky old RPG gamers. Why would Todd Howard forbid him from posting here? Have they given up on you guys?

I can't see the Codex banning him; if I didn't get banned after saying some people here sound like disgruntled fanboys grown old, then nobody gets banned.

I'll still probably love some aspects of Oblivion, like other aspects and I might not hate anything that's in. Any sadness or even near hatred would come from what's not in and what the game could have been if they'd stuck to a more pure action RPG format.

 

[Twinfalls]

It's pretty obvious Bethsoft banned him from posting here, since too many of their target audience were following him and being introduced to 'inappropriate concepts' - ie the serious flaws in their favrite gaem.

As for forcing 'Prince of Persia' moments, I can't really see that given they took out climbing. It's more a problem with their crappy-assed unoptimised and poorly designed graphics engine conking out if anything unusual takes place.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

The one and the same. Still posting at NMA, too. I remember you from there and recall you had an admirable number of quality posts. Maybe it's time to start posting again, eh? (not site-whoring)

Well, I don't particularly find my posts to have that much quality. I'm always under the shadow of greater people. Though it is true, I haven't posted there in a while, not even on DAC. Maybe it is time to return...

 

[xemous]

Now that the codex is on the map more of the TES fan base will come here, .

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Not so clearly to me. You keep talking about intrinsic values of art(and games as a form of artistic expression). What determines the intrinsic value of a piece of art(a game) and why? What is the intrinsic value of Mona Lisa? Of Moon Sonata? What is the intrinsic value of PST?

What are the intrinsic, defining elements of anything?

 

[Drain]

Not so clearly to me. You keep talking about intrinsic values of art(and games as a form of artistic expression). What determines the intrinsic value of a piece of art(a game) and why? What is the intrinsic value of Mona Lisa? Of Moon Sonata? What is the intrinsic value of PST?

What are the intrinsic, defining elements of anything?

Well, maybe you should have explained what do you mean by intrinsic value before you used the term. As you can see, it is not a self-evident term. Intrinsic elements and defining elements are different notions for me, so combining them together like you did makes little sense.

 

[Solik]

Most people wrote copy/pastes of their same tired dribble, but this new guy, apparently trying to be accepted, did a really awful bandwagon jump that people around here usually call out successfully. Why everyone turned their brains off for this nonsense is beyond me.

In that case you may want to ask your money back, because your grasp of game design is laughable and your demonstrated incompetence in evaluating principal design constituents of Oblivion indicates you have failed to absorb even the elementary concepts.

Interesting to know that you have a better grasp of game design than professional game designers, reviewers, and critics. HOT TIP: You're part of a niche group. You do not hold Sekret Ultimate Truth on this.

Only someone wholly ignorant on game design can praise Oblivion for its combat when there are innumerable examples of superior combat systems, both within and outside of the CRPG genre.

Well, let's see. After putting in another 12 hours into Oblivion, a huge amount of that spent on combat, my original opinion about it is only solidifying. It's got even more nuances than I noticed at first, and group combat is really turning out great. Since you cheesed out with the word "innumerable" without actually listing any, I'll give you a nice list of some combat systems that are inferior to Oblivion's:

Daggerfall
Morrowind
Wizardry (all that I've played)
Might and Magic (all that I've played)
Ultima (all that I've played, though that's only about two)
Infinity Engine games (Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale)
AD&D Gold Box games
The Legend of Zelda (all of them)
Gothic II
Star Trail
Darklands

Here's a list of some combat systems that are superior to Oblivion's:

Tales of Symphonia
Grandia III

Combat in Oblivion is twitchy

The use of the word "twitch" pretty much blacklists you.

poorly balanced

False.

abysmally boring

Subjective.

and without doubt the worst in the Elder Scrolls series

Patently ridiculous. It's almost like you're competing with yourself to see how much more idiotic you can make each additional phrase be.

Not to mention that reliance on player reflexes rather than the character's skill is a rather crude violation of the roleplaying paradigm

Which has absolutely zero effect on the quality of the combat system as it pertains to the subgenre of action-RPG. But since you know so much about game design, I'm sure you were aware of that. Just trying to trap me, I'm sure.

Furthermore, Oblivion's combat requires no more "reflexes" than stopping at a traffic light when it changes colors from about a quarter of a mile away. Timing is not particularly precise, and overall combat is actually pretty slow given the long stagger times. It does require you to think fast, but that's true of all real-time games. I'm sorry if you find that difficult.

Your ignorance appears to extend to the field of computer graphics as well, because I don't know how else to explain the assessment that Oblivion visuals are "next-gen"

Straw man. I don't use buzzwords. It's easy to make people look dumb when you just make up stuff!

Is it mayhap the notably poor execution of view distance and level of detail, a flaw which would be excusable had near-perfect implementations of those concepts not premiered in Far Cry (which I presume is "cur-gen" game) two years earlier?

You have no idea what you were talking about. People apparently much smarter than you fixed the level of detail with far view distances about two days after release. Browse the .ini file some time, kid. Bethesda assumed people would want to sacrifice far-away quality in favor of better up-close quality. If you disagree, you're quite free to make all the necessary adjustments.

Or perhaps it is the ubiquitous bloom effect, which can't possibly serve a purpose other than conveying the impression that the player characeter snorts crystal meth in regular intervals (probably at every loading screen)?

Ah yes, let's poke fun at the low-quality option included for people with low-end machines while ignoring the inclusion of actual HDR.

The fact that you claim authority in the field of game design is even more comical in light of the fact that you haven't even played Fallout

Nonsense. One can study game design without playing more than a handful of games, technically speaking (which, of course, is not true at all in my case). My "claim" of "authority" went only as far as viewing video games as something other than art, which, to be quite frank, I'm parroting from textbooks on the topic. Don't like it, take it up with the actual authorities in the field.

you haven't played *any* quality CRPGs and therefore don't deserve to be qualified as a *gamer*

That's the most hilarious line in your post. More, please.


In conclusion, you did a fantastic job demonstrating how much you don't know. You also riddled it with so many insults that the hive mind didn't bother paying attention to your obvious missteps in their rush to applaud your adolescent flame.

 

[Section8]

I'll give you a nice list of some combat systems that are inferior to Oblivion's:

<snip>

Wow, talk about subjective. You're comparing apples and oranges on a lot of those. But since you're a nice guy and all, I'll give you a nice list of some unrelated things that are inferior to elephants:

Pork Luncheon Meat
Spam
Horses
Armchairs

Here's a list of some other unrelated things that are superior to elephants:

Goats
Underwater Goats with Snorkels and Flippers
A Buffalo With an Aqualung

 

[Naked_Lunch]

I'll give you a nice list of some combat systems that are inferior to Oblivion's:

Ultima (all that I've played, though that's only about two)

The focus of the Ultima games (Post IV, pre VIII at least) is not combat, but NPC and world interaction. You can make it through all of Ultima VII without even having to fight except at the very end, and by then you have a nice enough selection of items to fend yourself off while you destroy the black gate. The Elder Scrolls games have a HUGE emphasis on combat, so if the combat system is junk, then a large portion of the game is junk.

Gothic II

See above, although the Gothic games place more emphasis on combat at times. But it's bearable.

Darklands

See above.

Here's a list of some combat systems that are superior to Oblivion's:

Tales of Symphonia
Grandia III

Are you serious? You don't play a lot of games, do you?

 

[Solik]

Wow, talk about subjective. You're comparing apples and oranges on a lot of those.

Double-check exactly what Mr. Ratty said in what I was responding to. He was talking about not only CRPGs but also some other genres. So, I created a list that included CRPGs as well as some other related genres.

The focus of the Ultima games (Post IV, pre VIII at least) is not combat, but NPC and world interaction.

Please understand that I'm not claiming that a certain Ultima game is inferior to Oblivion. Just the combat system. You may think that's an unfair comparison, and I'm likely to agree with you, but I was simply responding to Ratty's claim that there were "innumerable" examples to the contrary.

Are you serious? You don't play a lot of games, do you?

Yeesh. Second time I've been accused of this in this thread. I don't want to talk about my gaming credentials, because I'll sound pretty silly bragging about how many games I've played in an attempt to prove my argument.

Suffice it to say that it was merely a list of "SOME" combat systems superior to Oblivion's. To be honest, I find tactical and strategy games to have vastly superior combat to most RPGs (Final Fantasy Tactics, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, etc). It's perplexing to me that so many RPGs struggle so much with decent combat systems, and yet they then focus so much of the actual gameplay on it (both old-school and new-school). It's really why I'm happy to see quality action-RPG combat systems like Oblivion's. Developers seem to get those right more often than not.

 

[Section8]

Double-check exactly what Mr. Ratty said in what I was responding to. He was talking about not only CRPGs but also some other genres. So, I created a list that included CRPGs as well as some other related genres.

Doesn't make an iota of difference, if there is no basis for actual comparison. For instance, why is Oblivion's combat superior to say Wizardry, or Darklands? It seems to me that their relative merits appeal to a completely different subset of gamer.

It's like saying that Rhythmic Gymnastics is clearly better than Soccer, and trying to justify a completely mystifying conclusion by saying, "well, they're both olympic sports, so the comparison is justified."

When Ratty said "there are innumerable examples of superior combat systems," I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that he's talking about comparable systems "within and outside of the CRPG genre."

 

[Solik]

Well, what would you consider comparable? There's Gothic. Listed that. Legend of Zelda. Listed that. Mount & Blade. Haven't played it myself.

To use your analogy, though, I think it would be more like me saying "Bob is a better Rhythmic Gymnast than John is a soccer player." But that's still stretching it. Maybe if we compared two gymnastic events, it would be closer.

 

[Kuato]

I'll give you a nice list of some combat systems that are inferior to Oblivion's:

Bankshot Billiards 2
FiFA 06
NBA Live 96
Tiger Woods PGA tour 06
Bejeweled 2:Deluxe
Wik:Thefable of souls
Marble Blast Ultra
Dragons Lair
NRA Varmit Hunter
Airport Tycoon
Big Riggs: Over the road racing

Here's a list of some combat systems that are superior to Oblivion's:

Trailer Park Tycoon
Monopoly
Starcraft
Moto GP2
Serious Sam
Frogger
Pong
Joust
Burgertime

Are you sure you didn't miss any?

 

[Human Shield]

What are the intrinsic, defining elements of anything?

Intrinsic is the wrong word. There is no intrinsic value. I think you are referring to just objective characteristics, quality and resolution of video can be measured, the features of combat in a game can be listed.

 

[Solik]

Are you sure you didn't miss any?

Yeah, you're about four posts and an hour too late on that. Thank you for contributing nothing. Seriously, what's with all the parrots?

 

[Section8]

Daggerfall
Morrowind
<s>Wizardry (all that I've played)
Might and Magic (all that I've played)
Ultima (all that I've played, though that's only about two)
Infinity Engine games (Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale)
AD&D Gold Box games</s>
The Legend of Zelda (all of them)
Gothic II
<s>Star Trail
Darklands</s>

That seems about fair to me, as far as comparable systems, and excluding previous Elder Scrolls games, you have the Zelda games and Gothic 2, although I'd trim the list of Zelda games down to the GameCube ones, to be fair. To add to the list:

Enclave
Mount & Blade
Arx Fatalis
Thief series
Pirates of the Caribbean

...and without having played Oblivion yet, so reserving final judgement, I would expect it to be pretty much on par (give or take) with Thief and Arx, better than Gothic II, POTC and Enclave (which I can barely recall) and pale in comparison to Mount and Blade.

But hey, that's just a sidetrack I went on, and I may end up eating my words once I actually play Oblivion. On paper it doesn't sound remarkable, but then again, Bethesda seem to have a lot of implementations that can't be judged by how they sound on paper.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Wait, they've made a Trailer Park Tycoon?

WHERE!?

 

[Sycandre]

My french favorite mag didn't review oblvion this month. The reason given: Bethy allowed only tests in their offices, in limited time, with a control over the screenies used to illustrate the review.

Isn't it looking like a bit of censorship? It is probably part of the reason why the reviews released until now are all but critical about this game

 

[Twinfalls]

My french favorite mag didn't review oblvion this month. The reason given: Bethy allowed only tests in their offices, in limited time, with a control over the screenies used to illustrate the review.

Isn't it looking like a bit of censorship? It is probably part of the reason why the reviews released until now are all but critical about this game

That is fucked. Stand-over tactics. 'Review this OUR way, or don't at all - and lose the scoop to all the other mags'.

Nice one Bethy.