Review Have they got no shame? Oblivion and the media

[elander_]

I'm the troll? Are we reading the same thread? People are directly insulting large numbers of people because of their tastes in entertainment, and I'm a troll for having a problem with that?

Not for having their tastes but for making idiotic claims like Oblivion is the best thing evar made.

I will not get into a "video games are art" argument with you or anyone else. Even after all the insipid debates I've been drawn into here, that one remains beneath me. Having studied game design and read a lot on the topic, the consensus is quite clear -- video games, being objects of entertainment rather than mechanisms of self-expression, are a craft rather than an artform, with the caveat that they may at times contain some art included with them (in the form of added stories and visual artwork). I don't give a flying fuck if you agree with that or not; I'm not about to argue it.

What they claim about gameplay is just what they claim. They sound a bit pseudo-intellectual and arrognant in their claims. There are others with a long experience and curriculum who claim otherwise:

http://www.theoryoffun.com/

You should also read some of Specter interviews and other old school game designers for what they have to say about it.

You are right in one thing Oblivion isn't art. It's more like one of these endless blockbuster movies advertised with exceptional cg effects until you actualy see the movie then you quickly forget about it. If i was to give a score to Oblivion for taking the money of players who are noob to games and selling amateurish gameplay then Oblivion would deserve it's 10/10.

Oh but im having fun. Then too bad we are spoiling your illusions. We are evaluating Oblivion based on everything that was done before not just what was done 5 years ago. Being art or not Oblivion gameplay is too amateurish. These guys have learned little to nothing with the legacy of quality games that were made before them.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I'm the troll? Are we reading the same thread? People are directly insulting large numbers of people because of their tastes in entertainment, and I'm a troll for having a problem with that?

You have been told you're having a problem with a non-issue and still act as if it existed. Again, there is no issue being taken against preferences of others or how the game entertains them; but rather how the evaluation of certain elements found in the game are made in a faux objective light rather than subjective. It's either about entertainment, which is clearly subjective, or intrinsic value which is clearly objective. It can't do one while attempting to do the other.

If being told this and not caring for it doesn't make you a troll, then it makes you look incredibly dense. The only thing left to find out is wheter you're dense by nature or on purpose.

No, you're just another pseudo-intellectual that demands an echo chamber.

Ad hominem.

If there's anything I "demand" is for others to commit to their arguments instead of coming up with idiotic reasons to not pursue them and abandon them along the way. No more, no less.

Having studied game design and read a lot on the topic, the consensus is quite clear -- video games, being objects of entertainment rather than mechanisms of self-expression, are a craft rather than an artform, with the caveat that they may at times contain some art included with them (in the form of added stories and visual artwork).

Again, specious. Studying game design does not validate your opinion on how videogames are nothing but objects of entertainment. Having read or studied issues which belong to the same field but are not directly connected gives you no particular or necessarily worthwhile insight into that discussion.

You're also claiming videogames are not forms of self-expression but nevermind that a developer - like a writer, painter or musician - can be quite descriptive in their works of how their environments influenced their personalities and perceptions. Why are Hideo Kojima's takes on the possible dangers of the digitial era in Metal Gear Solid 2 not art but Picasso's take on the atrocity of Guernica considered art? Both had clear examples of self-expression behind their creation. Shigeru Miyamoto has often said that the inspiration for his videogames come from childhood memories; his Zelda series are often a reflection of his youthful days exploring the countryside. Why isn't this self-expression? Why would a poet creating works that aluded to the same themes be considered self-expression but Zelda games not?

Your line of defense seems to fall on the fact that most consumers and developers have not bothered to look at the medium as anything more than entertainment. Why, however, does this mean it can only provide that? Film was considered a very simplistic form of entertainment on its birth, especially by critics at the time and it's well beyond such humble beginnings nowadays. If you wanted to actually make a point, that was it - the relative youth of the medium and its overal lack of maturity. Instead, all you did was make a self-righteous appeal to popular ideas surrounding it.

I don't give a flying fuck if you agree with that or not; I'm not about to argue it.

You obviously give enough of a flying fuck to have came back and replied.

 

[Slylandro]

[Snip]
Having studied game design and read a lot on the topic, the consensus is quite clear -- video games, being objects of entertainment rather than mechanisms of self-expression, are a craft rather than an artform

I do not mean to get drawn into a flame-war, so don't take offense at my question, but is this true necessarily of all games? Isn't the point of RPGs, for example, self-expression? Sure, self-expression of the observer as opposed to the creator, but how does this make it any less artistic? If anything, it would seem more artistic intuitively because the art is a composite reflection of both the creator and the observer. Must the artistic experience be "fixed" so to speak? I don't see why. Isn't the point that people generally don't have the same experiences anyway? In some sense even 'normal' art is not really fixed. We both see Picasso's paintings, but we don't *see* them the same way. I think it's possible to consider PST and several other games to be "dynamic" art. It is like a magic painting that changes depending who is watching it.

 

[Ratty]

Having studied game design

In that case you may want to ask your money back, because your grasp of game design is laughable and your demonstrated incompetence in evaluating principal design constituents of Oblivion indicates you have failed to absorb even the elementary concepts.

Only someone wholly ignorant on game design can praise Oblivion for its combat when there are innumerable examples of superior combat systems, both within and outside of the CRPG genre. Combat in Oblivion is twitchy, poorly balanced, abysmally boring and without doubt the worst in the Elder Scrolls series. Not to mention that reliance on player reflexes rather than the character's skill is a rather crude violation of the roleplaying paradigm; but since you're such an astute game designer, I'm sure you already realized that.

Your ignorance appears to extend to the field of computer graphics as well, because I don't know how else to explain the assessment that Oblivion visuals are "next-gen" (which is, by the way, a stupid phrase which ought to be banned under the penalty of death). What, exactly, makes them "next-gen"? Is it mayhap the notably poor execution of view distance and level of detail, a flaw which would be excusable had near-perfect implementations of those concepts not premiered in Far Cry (which I presume is "cur-gen" game) two years earlier? Or does the quote refer to sub-par character models and animation which make me wonder what sorry bunch of cabbages BethSoft hired to do modelling for Oblivion; probably some high school kids who decided that spawning a teapot primitive in an evaluation copy of 3D Studio MAX makes them professional modellers. Or perhaps it is the ubiquitous bloom effect, which can't possibly serve a purpose other than conveying the impression that the player characeter snorts crystal meth in regular intervals (probably at every loading screen)? You know, the prevalent consensus in the gaming industry and community that overabundance of ridiculous shaders is what constitutes next generation graphics has led me to firm belief that next generation graphics, much like next generation gameplay, next generation television and next generation cellular phones, isn't worth all the effort and hype. If showing off TEH MADD SHAEDR SKILLZ acquired in some online HLSL tutorial is what makes one a "next-gen" developer, then I'd rather stick with "cur-gen". Better yet, I'd travel 15 years back, into the era when it took special ingenuity to develop a 256-color engine with parallax scrolling and make it run smoothly on a 386 with 2MB RAM and a Trident 512KB video card.

The fact that you claim authority in the field of game design is even more comical in light of the fact that you haven't even played Fallout, a game which is widely regarded as the greatest CRPG of all times and is recognized and acclaimed as such by *real* game critics, not the spineless evolutionary throwbacks which seem to dominate the gaming press nowadays. Your unfamiliarity with Fallout coupled with your uneducated assessment of Oblivion have lead me to conclude that you haven't played *any* quality CRPGs and therefore don't deserve to be qualified as a *gamer*, let alone a game designer. Why, the mere fact that you had to resort to citing your credentials is pathetic in itself. Newsflash, an idiot with a degree is still an idiot, and flaunting your mediocre educational achievements only makes your ignorance seem even more depressing.

P.S. Hi, everyone. My name is Ratty and I'm new here.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Having studied game design

In that case you may want to ask your money back, because your grasp of game design is laughable and your demonstrated incompetence in evaluating principal design constituents of Oblivion indicates you have failed to absorb even the elementary concepts.

Exactly.

P.S. Hi, everyone. My name is Ratty and I'm new here.

Welcome, Ratty. Great post, great writing style.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Welcome Ratty

You wouldn't be the Ratty that used to post on NMA would you?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Judging by the location, he's one and the same. Unless Zagreb started producing Ratties by the dozens.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I thought I recognized him.

Been a while since I've visited NMA so I wasn't sure.

 

[LlamaGod]

Solik is just trying to come up with excuses for why he likes crappy games and tries to disguise it in some psuedo-intellectual attitude.

 

[Brother None]

Solik is just trying to come up with excuses for why he likes crappy games and tries to disguise it in some psuedo-intellectual attitude.

Hah, yeah, we're probably way too stupid to play a game as smart as Oblivion.

Hell, you have to be game designer to understand how friggin' good it is. That's how good it is!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Hell, you have to be game designer to understand how friggin' good it is. That's how good it is!

Respect++

Best. Damned. Comback. Today!

 

[Ratty]

Thanks for the welcome, everyone.

You wouldn't be the Ratty that used to post on NMA would you?

The one and the same. Still posting at NMA, too. I remember you from there and recall you had an admirable number of quality posts. Maybe it's time to start posting again, eh? (not site-whoring)

<snip>

You post here, too? Damn, and here I thought I had finally found a refuge where I could misbehave, talk about piracy, plot your overthrow and whatnot. :wink:

Hell, you have to be game designer to understand how friggin' good it is. That's how good it is!

This says a lot about quality of so-called "gaming colleges" and the type of "professionals" they mill. The saddest thing is, game designers of Solik's caliber likely constitute the bulk - if not all! - of Bethesda's current design crew. I can't pinpoint the exact moment when people of genuine talent and skill such as Julian Lefay (the project leader and lead designer of Daggefall, lead programmer for Arena) were replaced by hacks like Todd Howard (whose resume prior to Morrowind includes such brilliant and ground-breaking titles as Redguard and Terminator: Future Shock), but I do know that Bethesda hasn't developed a single solid and memorable CRPG since 1996.

 

[Brother None]

You post here, too? Damn, and here I thought I had finally found a refuge where I could misbehave, talk about piracy, plot your overthrow and whatnot. :wink:

Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Total posts: 15
[0.01% of total / 0.02 posts per day]

You have little to worry about, at my postrate. I mostly lurk, and mostly on the frontpage.

 

[voodoo1man]

Unbelievable.

WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS BEING SO NEGATIVE!!!!??? STOP WHINING AND GO MAKE YOUR OWN DAMN REVIEW!!!!

 

[Tintin]

I can't pinpoint the exact moment when people of genuine talent and skill such as Julian Lefay (the project leader and lead designer of Daggefall, lead programmer for Arena) were replaced by hacks like Todd Howard (whose resume prior to Morrowind includes such brilliant and ground-breaking titles as Redguard and Terminator: Future Shock)

That's a pretty dumb thing to say, since Lefay's resume also consisted of ground-breaking titles like "The Terminator", "Wayne Gretzky Hockey", and "Where's Waldo?".

 

[kingcomrade]

It also includes Daggerfall and Arena, like he said, dimwit. What does Todd Howard's resumé include? Morrowind and Oblivion? Real impressive.

 

[Tintin]

It also includes Daggerfall and Arena, like he said, dimwit. What does Todd Howard's resumé include? Morrowind and Oblivion? Real impressive.

Poor KC. Let's try reading again:

".....were replaced by hacks like Todd Howard (whose resume prior to Morrowind includes such brilliant and ground-breaking titles as Redguard and Terminator: Future Shock)......"

Now do you get it my dear fellow? As you can clearly see, he was using his titles prior to Morrowind in a condescending way, which is stupid as Lefay also had some lame titles under his belt before.

 

[kingcomrade]

I can't pinpoint the exact moment when people of genuine talent and skill such as Julian Lefay (the project leader and lead designer of Daggefall, lead programmer for Arena) were replaced by hacks like Todd Howard (whose resume prior to Morrowind includes such brilliant and ground-breaking titles as Redguard and Terminator: Future Shock)

That's a pretty dumb thing to say, since Lefay's resume also consisted of ground-breaking titles like "The Terminator", "Wayne Gretzky Hockey", and "Where's Waldo?".

It also includes Daggerfall and Arena, like he said, dimwit.

Poor Tintin. Do you get what I was saying, now?

 

[Tintin]

Here we go again:

Poor KC. Let's try reading again:

".....were replaced by hacks like Todd Howard (whose resume prior to Morrowind includes such brilliant and ground-breaking titles as Redguard and Terminator: Future Shock)......"

Now do you get it my dear fellow? As you can clearly see, he was using his titles prior to Morrowind in a condescending way, which is stupid as Lefay also had some lame titles under his belt before.

 

[kingcomrade]

No, his point was that a creative person who worked on Daggerfall and Arena was replaced by an uncreative person who has produced nothing BUT crap. Oops, no "gotcha!" moment for you.

 

[Tintin]

No, his point was that a creative person who worked on Daggerfall and Arena was replaced by an uncreative person who has produced nothing BUT crap. Oops, no "gotcha!" moment for you.

Actually, what he said was that Lefay was awesome and worked on Daggerfall, but was replaced by someone who made shitty (sarcasm wrote "groundbreaking") titles like Terminator - though Lefay, prior to Daggerfall, also worked on shitty titles like Terminator and Where's Waldo.

 

[kingcomrade]

Yes, the point being that Lefay has Daggerfall to his credit and Todd has nothing comparable. I'm glad you are being so reasonable and admitting that I'm totally superior to you in every way including penis size, taste, and intelligence. Usually you retract into the denizen of Retardo Land when confronted by your own idiocy.

 

[Twinfalls]

Shut the fuck up. LeFay was a fucking great game designer, evidence being Arena and Daggerfall. Ted Peterson was also a great designer and especially writer, evidence being the same. Howard is a stunted dick.

That is all.

 

[Drain]

Judgement of value in art is not limited to the appraisal of the artform's hold or impact on the viewer; it can be evaluated based on its own intrinsic values, which in turn may or may not be conductive to aesthetical appeal.

Again, there is no issue being taken against preferences of others or how the game entertains them; but rather how the evaluation of certain elements found in the game are made in a faux objective light rather than subjective.
It's either about entertainment, which is clearly subjective, or intrinsic value which is clearly objective.

Not so clearly to me. You keep talking about intrinsic values of art(and games as a form of artistic expression). What determines the intrinsic value of a piece of art(a game) and why? What is the intrinsic value of Mona Lisa? Of Moon Sonata? What is the intrinsic value of PST?

 

[Twinfalls]

I thought this was the most succint bit of Role Player's arguments:

Simply put, there are multiple ways to evaluate art; wheter you personally choose to only look at it from an entertainment perspective has no bearing on others' decision to judge it for different elements and scrutinize it under different methods.

In other words, Solik et al, let discerning people maintain some objective critical standards (among themselves at least), instead of trying to bludgeon them with the 'all art/entertainment is subjective, everything can be as good as everything else, the only yardstick is how well something sells, bleh bleh blah'