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Dragon Age II General Discussion (Part 2)

kris

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Jaesun said:
attackfighter said:
Jaesun said:
attackfighter said:
I liked DA2. Although one thing that annoyed me was that Zevran made a cameo even though I killed him in DA:O, and what's worse was that I couldn't find an option to kill him a second time. Fucking gay elves! :x

Did you use an imported save?

Yes.

:lol:
Granted there are still some import bugs still in ME2 (Conrad Verner) this doesn't really surprise me. Funny as fucking hell though.

don't think it is a bug. The imported saves just don't track that. When importing a save you can check the things that is tracked, around ten things I believe.
 

Jaesun

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kris said:
Jaesun said:
attackfighter said:
Jaesun said:
attackfighter said:
I liked DA2. Although one thing that annoyed me was that Zevran made a cameo even though I killed him in DA:O, and what's worse was that I couldn't find an option to kill him a second time. Fucking gay elves! :x

Did you use an imported save?

Yes.

:lol:
Granted there are still some import bugs still in ME2 (Conrad Verner) this doesn't really surprise me. Funny as fucking hell though.

don't think it is a bug. The imported saves just don't track that. When importing a save you can check the things that is tracked, around ten things I believe.

Shepard will run into him on Illium, but the interactions are identical regardless of prior treatment. This is due to a glitch in the first Mass Effect which activates both the "Charmed" and "Intimidated" flags, but forces the "Intimidated" option as the default.

I was wrong, it's still a Mass Effect 1 bug. So the ME 2 importer cannot tell which option you did use on him.
 
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Jaesun said:
3928.png

At least Konjad doesn't lock good threads for no reason
 

Roguey

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Ex-lead designer Brent Knowles finally weighed in. First a tweet:
@Brent_Knowles If you were still the lead designer, would you have let DA2 turn into a consolized husk of it's former self?

@SovietPremier I would have tried to make it as good a game as I could given direction and influence from 'above'
Funny, that contradicts Laidlaw's "To date, I cannot think of a single decision that has been changed as a result of pressure from outside the team." And here's his demo review
(Note: I played it on the xbox360… for comparison I never played Dragon Age Origins on a console, only the PC)

Please keep in mind that this is only my opinion based on playing the demo. And that I’m keeping this short, I’m too busy with the novel to go into any kind of detailed analysis.

Overall: I thought the demo showed promise — without playing the full game I can’t say whether that promise was fulfilled.

Some Good Things
I am impressed at how put together the demo is after such a short development cycle. It seemed mostly polished, only a couple minor glitches and whatnot. And these were major engine changes that occurred from DA:O to DA2. So, impressed at the time frame.

The world is still there, though the art has changed. I still felt a part of the Dragon Age ‘universe’ and that nothing of the canon set in place in the original has been tampered with. And that the original had been built upon. So that’s cool.

Some Not-So-Good Things (in my opinion)
I understand why the first fight was done using a ‘super powered’ character. I get it. But it almost made me stop playing the demo. I don’t know if its because I had read so much negativity in regards to the combat changes or what but that first fight was a button mashing nightmare with no tactics coming into play. I was pretty horrified to be honest, I just closed my eyes, smashed buttons, and I won.

Later as I played with a proper character, through proper progression, I understood what was going on. Certainly not tactical the way I’d define tactical but not a pure action game either.

Really DA2 is neither an action game or a tactical semi-turned based RPG (like BG2 was and to a lesser degree DA:O was). It falls in the middle somewhere and like anything that doesn’t really define itself it has the potential to alienate players at either end of the spectrum. It is difficult to make both styles of gameplay awesome in the same game.

As an action game it is not responsive enough (i.e., I was clobbered by the ogre even after I was on the other side of the map several times) and as a tactical game I really mostly only controlled one character unless it died… there was no need, at least in the demo, to control party members.

Other Points
Not choosing race is a Very Bad Thing and has everything to do with cinematic limitations — characters with different heights and sizes are difficult to build cinematic conversation for — as well the choice impacts the amount of dialog that needs to be written. But aliens and fantasy races are cool. Humans are boring (except my kids and my wife and some of you… you know who you are).

As for the dialog itself, its what I expected. Some of it is visually beautiful but interactive movies have never been the kinds of games I wanted to play. So kudos to the team for the great work but, as always, I kind of wish the huge effort I know it takes to build those cinematic experiences could be spent on gameplay.

Overall I was impressed, the team really put together a strong title in such a short period of time. I don’t think some of the changes needed to happen (especially if Dragon Age has sold as well as has been indicated) but only the marketplace will tell us whether it was the right or the wrong thing to do.
Shame to see a reasonable fellow like that out of the industry.
 

Volourn

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Funny how eevryone was saying this guy hated DA2 and that's why he quit yet he seems to be overall positive about it. OMG Codex He's a traitor to the cause! KILL HIM!!!
 

circ

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Roguey said:
Some Good Things
I am impressed at how put together the demo is after such a short development cycle. It seemed mostly polished, only a couple minor glitches and whatnot. And these were major engine changes that occurred from DA:O to DA2. So, impressed at the time frame.

WHAT major engine changes? You mean the fact that they removed the top down perspective and added huge walls around a dead city to minimize rendering because they can't code graphical API's? Those major engine changes? Or maybe the fact that they added more polygons to the models? Is that it? Again, not a major change. Am I supposed to be impressed by the fact that they made a DLC with enormous amounts of filler combat/quests/locations? Or maybe he meant the laughable attempts at DX11 coding? Right.
Some Not-So-Good Things (in my opinion)
I understand why the first fight was done using a ‘super powered’ character. I get it. But it almost made me stop playing the demo. I don’t know if its because I had read so much negativity in regards to the combat changes or what but that first fight was a button mashing nightmare with no tactics coming into play. I was pretty horrified to be honest, I just closed my eyes, smashed buttons, and I won.

Yeah. When I could mark of death/assassinate and pretty much one hit kill every single boss in the game, tactics isn't the word I'd use. Rest of the trash mobs? Oh, just freeze them with a spell that never fails to do so after upgrades, and ONE HIT KILL THEM TOO! Tactics!

In one dungeon, doesn't matter which, because there are only 2, there was a location where if I stood, it sprung a firebreath trap. It even gave me a help popup about using it to my advantage. Except by the time I found it, the AI had already made my groupmates chase and totally annihilate the mobs I was supposed to gain the tactical advantage on. Tactics!

Later as I played with a proper character, through proper progression, I understood what was going on. Certainly not tactical the way I’d define tactical but not a pure action game either.
Would SHIT describe it best?

Really DA2 is neither an action game or a tactical semi-turned based RPG (like BG2 was and to a lesser degree DA:O was). It falls in the middle somewhere and like anything that doesn’t really define itself it has the potential to alienate players at either end of the spectrum. It is difficult to make both styles of gameplay AWESOME in the same game.
Thanks for that tidbit. (caps added)

As for the dialog itself, its what I expected. Some of it is visually beautiful but interactive movies have never been the kinds of games I wanted to play. So kudos to the team for the great work but, as always, I kind of wish the huge effort I know it takes to build those cinematic experiences could be spent on gameplay.
Huge effort? Well yeah, this is BioWare, so making scripts for fucking ready made 3D models is a "major engine change".


Roguey said:
Shame to see a reasonable fellow like that out of the industry.
BioWare can not into reasonable.
Also, unrelated, but since I'm riled up. They just made another PKD book into a movie. WHY HOLLYWOOD WHY?
 

kris

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Jaesun said:
Shepard will run into him on Illium, but the interactions are identical regardless of prior treatment. This is due to a glitch in the first Mass Effect which activates both the "Charmed" and "Intimidated" flags, but forces the "Intimidated" option as the default.

I was wrong, it's still a Mass Effect 1 bug. So the ME 2 importer cannot tell which option you did use on him.

Sorry. I missed that you wrote about ME1/2. I commented on the Zevran thing as I didn't notice that being tracked by the imported save game.

Circ. I hope you know he talks about the work of his old colleges and possibly friends. I also tend to agree that the short cycle for the game sure had its affect, most notably on the recycled assets.
 

Jaesun

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kris said:
Jaesun said:
Shepard will run into him on Illium, but the interactions are identical regardless of prior treatment. This is due to a glitch in the first Mass Effect which activates both the "Charmed" and "Intimidated" flags, but forces the "Intimidated" option as the default.

I was wrong, it's still a Mass Effect 1 bug. So the ME 2 importer cannot tell which option you did use on him.

Sorry. I missed that you wrote about ME1/2. I commented on the Zevran thing as I didn't notice that being tracked by the imported save game.

Circ. I hope you know he talks about the work of his old colleges and possibly friends. I also tend to agree that the short cycle for the game sure had its affect, most notably on the recycled assets.

Doh! My bad, just so excited for the immanent release of the new ME2 DLC. ;)

It's does seem odd they don't track Zevran. I guess it's canon you never killed him, even when you did.
 

circ

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Zevran probably gave you the magical slip. Or was a clone/demon clone. Hell, trust BioWare to retract shit.

And I know he writes about old colleagues. I don't think that's an excuse to deride and then sugarcoat everything. 'This sucked, but also, it didn't suck. I liked it.'
 

Multi-headed Cow

Guest
Just beat the game. I'll post my comments in spoilers since Jaesun for some retarded reason thinks he might play it eventually (Don't do it bro, it's really bad).
Ok, so I was a pure in the eyes of the emperor space marine. I did everything Meredith wanted without question, killed ALL mages, apostates, and templars who sided with them. Killed my own sister. She STILL goes herp a derp retarded crazy evil in the end, and you STILL get a "Mages everywhere used the Champion's name as a rallying cry and overthrew the circles!" ending. I was talking to a bro who finished it almost exactly opposite to how I did, siding with the mages as much as possible. Exact same ending. First enchanter Orsino STILL turns into a big fucking demon and he STILL had to kill it AND Meredith at the end. C&C is seemingly almost entirely non-existent from the ending. Not to mention Meredith (The head templar chick) goes all super saiyan in the end and flies around making all those fucking statues in town monsters.

TLDR non-spoiler version: I played pro-templar and a buddy played pro-mage and we got functionally the exact same ending with the exact same battles/bosses. I feel like a retard for playing this to the end, even though I played it in such small bursts it took me a good week to finish while avoiding as many sidequests as I reasonably could. Absolute turd. There was certainly reason to complain about Bioware games before, but this takes the cake. The shitcake. I feel the Skyway overwhelming me, it is a good pain.
 

Monocause

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Played the game some more. It's a pretty schizophrenic experience.

1) Combat is meh. Like the ex-dev guy said, it's neither tactical at heart, nor action. Feels fun for a bit but gets boring quickly once the novelty value goes away (yeah, it was rather novel for me, I don't play console aRPGs). On nightmare it's a stupid pain in the arse with most of your skills rendered useless because friendly fire was apparently added as an afterthought. On hard it's just a case of kill everyone or - in case one of these inflated HP mobs shows up) reload and kill everyone using a chokepoint.

2) NPCs. The only tolerable ones I found are Varric and Isabella. I keep Anders along but just because there isn't any other option aside from the annoying elf. And now a rant:

2a) WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT FINAL FANTASY GUY DOING IN MAH WRPG. Jesus fuck, he looks like a product of a fucking fanmade mod. Whoever was responsible for Fenris' concept should be impaled in the good old-fashioned slow and anal death way.

2b) Anders, what did they do to you? In Awakening you were the likeable laid-back apostate, now you're just a generic fag with issues and round cheeks.

2c) BTW, what's with round cheeks in this game. Pretty much every male character has round cheeks. They constantly remind me of Dicksmoker. I had to use extreme facegen settings just so my character doesn't suffer from the round cheek syndrome.

3) The concept for the story had potential, but from what I read Bioware fucked it up. Not much point in 'building up your reputation and character' when there's not much to come from it. The thing with time passing is a wasted opportunity too, might as well not be there, would make no difference.

4) Character development and loot system is annoying. Ever get the feeling that levelling is actually a punishment, not a reward? Hey, I got a level-up. It means that my enemies just got stronger and my gear got that much more worthless, so I have to buy that 15 DAM generic sword instead of a 12 DAM sword to deal damage.

4a) Purchasing unique equipment is counterproductive too since it will get outdated quickly and is much more expensive than generic gear.

On a positive note I'm still playing the game so it's got something going for it, I don't know what exactly it is yet. I'm also having doubts if it will last.

Just a thought: I remember seeing a comment somewhere that called the game being designed by focus group. This actually makes a lot of sense. Point by point:

1) Focus groups say that the combat should have more action. But no, it should be like in DA:O. But no, it should be quicker. But no, it should be tactical.

2) The focus groups want a FUCKING FINAL FANTASY CHARACTER IN MAH WRPG. They told me to jot down my favourite RPG character. Final Fantasy is the best game series ever and wow, Cloud sure was cool. And we all like dark characters with a dark past. He should be TOTALLY consumed by a desire for vengeance and by his inner demons. He should be struggling with his past constantly and expect everyone to give a fuck about it. Make him a white-haired poof with a sexy chestplate and rubber pants.

Hearing banter between Varric and Fenris makes me wonder if the character concept wasn't ridiculed even at Bio.

More stuff fits the focus group design, I can't be arsed to write it all. Seriously, I know how a focus looks and how stupid can suits from various industries get over it and I feel DA2 has a focus group dirty palm's feel all over it.
 

treave

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Monocause said:
The focus groups want a FUCKING FINAL FANTASY CHARACTER IN MAH WRPG. Wow, Cloud sure was cool. And we all like dark characters with a dark past. He should be TOTALLY consumed by a desire for vengeance and by his inner demons. He should be struggling with his past constantly and expect everyone to give a fuck about it. Make him a white hair poof

Fuck you Cloud was totally a deeper and better written character than Fenris don't make me dig up Andyman's LP.

I'm in agreement with Multi-headed Cow, ending was all sorts of retarded. Even KoTOR-era Bioware could've written a better end-game than this. It makes the "single-choice changes the ending regardless of how you played" formula looks good in comparison.
 

Havoc

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath
Something I found... there's a Holocaust reference.

Spoiler!

The Arishok tells Hawke that somebody stole their fake plans for explosives. In fact those were plans for a deadly gas. An elf stole them and used I think on the elves. Elves in ghetto - Jews.
 

RK47

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Monocause said:
Played the game some more. It's a pretty schizophrenic experience.

Fenris, the JRPG guy is solely written by David Gaider.

:salute: Make of that what you will.
 

kris

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Monocause said:
2) NPCs. The only tolerable ones I found are Varric and Isabella. I keep Anders along but just because there isn't any other option aside from the annoying elf. And now a rant:

IMO, the novelity of Isabella vanish quickly. Soon you will grow tired of her constant banter about how much sex she has. She is a slut that looks like a slut and only talks about sex, but you can't have sex with until the next phase.

This will be the first bioware game I don't have any romance for my character. I mean if I manage to continue playing it.
 

Pika-Cthulhu

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kris said:
Monocause said:
2) NPCs. The only tolerable ones I found are Varric and Isabella. I keep Anders along but just because there isn't any other option aside from the annoying elf. And now a rant:

IMO, the novelity of Isabella vanish quickly. Soon you will grow tired of her constant banter about how much sex she has. She is a slut that looks like a slut and only talks about sex, but you can't have sex with until the next phase.

This will be the first bioware game I don't have any romance for my character. I mean if I manage to continue playing it.

Thats pretty funny. Massive slut fucking everything that moves, and you are the long suffering guy in the friendzone. Go Go Beta Hawke!
 

Lesifoere

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Downloading AssCreed: Brohood. Still have not played DA2 and never will. I feel so smug right now, bros.
 
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Haha Bioware is in full damage control mode:

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/category/315/index

Dragon Age II Registered Game Owner General Discussion (NO Spoilers allowed) This forum is for registered owners of Dragon Age II to discuss general Dragon Age II topics without story spoilers. Dragon Age II registration is required to post in this forum, but all visitors may read.

:bravo:
 

Roguey

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"Funny how eevryone was saying this guy hated DA2 and that's why he quit yet he seems to be overall positive about it. OMG Codex He's a traitor to the cause! KILL HIM!!!"
http://blog.brentknowles.com/2011/03/09/dragon-age-2-2/
I really should emphasize a point I’ve made in my posts about why I left BioWare however:

I never thought Dragon Age 2 would be a terrible game. It was just that a highly cinematic, action-leaning RPG wasn’t what I wanted to work on. That is all.

circ said:
WHAT major engine changes? You mean the fact that they removed the top down perspective and added huge walls around a dead city to minimize rendering because they can't code graphical API's? Those major engine changes? Or maybe the fact that they added more polygons to the models? Is that it? Again, not a major change. Am I supposed to be impressed by the fact that they made a DLC with enormous amounts of filler combat/quests/locations? Or maybe he meant the laughable attempts at DX11 coding? Right.
http://blog.bioware.com/2011/02/16/the- ... 93-part-1/
New lighting system, new terrain and sky editors, improved water renderer, better fog, improved offline global illumination renderer, and improved runtime shadow technology. Plus they renamed it Lycium for some reason. They may as well not bothered at all since hardly anyone notices/cares.
BioWare can not into reasonable.
Anyone who prefers more tactical variety and doesn't care for cinematic conversations/interactive movies is okay in my book. And he did admit that DA was less of a "tactical semi-turned based RPG" than BG2 (and seemingly blaming it on the forced cinematic experience).
 

Vault Dweller

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Jaesun said:
Roguey said:
I would have tried to make it as good a game as I could given direction and influence from 'above'

Nice find Roguey.
I think the "influence from above" part goes without saying. When EA bought Bio and Pandemic they stated that the goals (to justify the 860 mil price tag) were 10 (!) new franchises in the "next few years", $300 mil in annual revenue in 2009 and 2010, more in the following years.

I don't think that Bio has a choice anymore. They MUST pump a lot of fast-selling, short development cycle games (which means action games) or they join Origin, Looking Glass, Westwood, Bullfrog, and Pandemic. Now that Pandemic is gone (the honeymoon didn't last long, did it?), Bio is under the double pressure to deliver. Not that I expect it to save them.
 

Commissar Draco

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So the levelscaling is as bad as in Oblivius? Was thinking about completing the the first chapter after few quessts with some C&C and finaly obtaining Isabela but now it's getting :retarded: again. the story is meh, the sister and hot slut from DAO have chastity belts instaled and with level scaling you're punished for taking extra quests. Plus the button mashing is getting boring indeed. Back to Kottor 2 Restored I guess It's better to suffer playing the jedi than this turd. :rpgcodex:
 

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