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Game News Dragon Age Given A Date

Gragt

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,864,860
Location
Dans Ton Cul
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin
Morbus said:
Knowing whether a game is good or bad is NOT the same as liking a game or not.

This I completely agree with.

Morbus said:
If you wanna criticize a game, if you wanna say "this game is good because" and "this game is bad because", then you HAVE to understand the process of making a game.

I don't see why knowing the process of creation would influence the review of the final product. It might be interesting in some cases to know how it was done, and it might help to understand how and why some parts succeeded or failed, but that's about it. If you review a game, you can appreciate directly if the mecanics work or not, if the gameplay gets stale or introduce elements over time to keep the formula fresh and challenging, if the different elements work well together, etc. I just do not see the need to understand the process of making a game to reach that. Maybe you'd like to give an exemple to help me understand?
 

Lesifoere

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
4,071
Dionysus said:
Lesifoere said:
I don't, and a lot of Codexers don't. We simply do not remove them from inventory. I've pointed this out to Volly very, very many times--but as much else, nothing gets through to someone as delusional as he is. You should stop trying.
I don't know if there's much wisdom in stealing something that you are doomed and determined to hate, either. It is less stupid than buying it, but it's still pretty dumb.
Fat Dragon said:
Doesn't really refute Volourn's point about some here on the Codex being dumb and desperate enough to waste time on a game they apparently hate and bashed repeatedly (or at least pretend to).
?

I've pirated games which I installed, played for some time (ranging from five minutes to an hour), decided it fucking sucked and uninstalled. I prefer to try things out before determining whether I like it rather than go by other people's opinions/pre-release hype (albeit the latter does have some influence, like Dragon Age being presented so far as boring generic-fantasy tripe). I suppose that if you add it all up, it amounts to quite a lot of hours of my life wasted on things I didn't like, but then if you're an individual who's perpetually happy and who enjoys his job/life/school every minute of every hour, well--congratulations.

Somehow, though, I suspect that you--like everyone else--have wasted (may well still be wasting) many, many years on things you didn't much like, and which led/are leading you absolutely nowhere.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
"So you can't bash the information you se on game sites because you haven't played the game yet, but when you actually play it then it's retarded to bash it because you played it."

There's a HUGE difference between criticizing certain aspects of a game pre release than putright bahsing.

If you go on, and on for MONTHS IF NOT YEARS bahsing a agme about how it's the shittiest of the sitty than go out and buy/steal/play it anyways; it's retarded.

Why waste time on soemthing you think is shit.

I don't give a crap about Barbie so why the fuck would I buy or steal it? It's dumb. I think the popular tv show 24 is overrated and crap so I'm not gonna waste my time on it.

I think rugby is a pussy boring sport so why would I waste time on it when I could be watching/playing a manly man sport like REAL (Amerikan) football? And, if you hate Amerikan football why woudl you waste time on it?



"Have you ever been in love? I'd say you haven't, because no woman is ever good enough for you. No offense."

Mor elike I'm not good enough for any woman. m i rite or m i rite!?!


"It is possible to like something and not to think it's good."

The fact you felt desperate enough to comapre liking a video game to thing called loving a woman (or man depending on YOUR preference) is ridiculous.
 

Dionysus

Scholar
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
345
Lesifoere said:
I've pirated games which I installed, played for some time (ranging from five minutes to an hour), decided it fucking sucked and uninstalled. I prefer to try things out before determining whether I like it rather than go by other people's opinions/pre-release hype (albeit the latter does have some influence, like Dragon Age being presented so far as boring generic-fantasy tripe).
That's not really what we are talking about. It's reasonable to try something if you honestly think that you might like it. But lot of people here actually seem to be rabid consumers of shit. They closely track the coverage of games they won't like from media outlets that they don't like. They then play these games with the full expectation that they won't like them. It is strange behavior when you think about it.

And I think elander's post really gets at the underlying disorder. This isn't about trying something out to see if it's good. These people are eating shit just so they can bitch about it on the net.
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
517
Location
The frozen north
Dionysus said:
These people are eating shit just so they can bitch about it on the net.

Yeah. The bitching is oh so more important once games are not made like it was when they grew up. Things are different now, if all games disappoint you that bad, stop playing or make your own game. Programming is easy, take your so called "design discussions" and put them to use...
 

elander_

Arbiter
Joined
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Messages
2,015
But people can still criticize games and talk about game design no? Or is criticism called bitching now when they are criticizing a game you enjoyed?
 
Joined
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Messages
388
Volourn said:
If you go on, and on for MONTHS IF NOT YEARS bahsing a agme about how it's the shittiest of the sitty than go out and buy/steal/play it anyways; it's retarded.

Why waste time on soemthing you think is shit.

I don't give a crap about Barbie so why the fuck would I buy or steal it? It's dumb. I think the popular tv show 24 is overrated and crap so I'm not gonna waste my time on it.

I think rugby is a pussy boring sport so why would I waste time on it when I could be watching/playing a manly man sport like REAL (Amerikan) football? And, if you hate Amerikan football why woudl you waste time on it?

Common sense really, unless you're a masochist -- Volourn makes a good point! :aiee:
 

Dionysus

Scholar
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
345
elander_ said:
But people can still criticize games and talk about game design no? Or is criticism called bitching now when they are criticizing a game you enjoyed?
Criticism can include, but is not limited to bitching. Traditionally, critics are skilled in overall judgment, not just pissing and moaning.

Your perversion is characterized by the fact that bitching is the ultimate goal. You want to bitch about videogames, and playing games that you don't like is a means to that end. It's a chore. It's hoop that you need to jump through so you can complain on the net with some sense of justification.

In my experience, the best critiques don't come from those that hated a game before they ever played it.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Motherfuckerville
Dionysus said:
elander_ said:
But people can still criticize games and talk about game design no? Or is criticism called bitching now when they are criticizing a game you enjoyed?
Criticism can include, but is not limited to bitching. Traditionally, critics are skilled in overall judgment, not just pissing and moaning.

Your perversion is characterized by the fact that bitching is the ultimate goal. You want to bitch about videogames, and playing games that you don't like is a means to that end. It's a chore. It's hoop that you need to jump through so you can complain on the net with some sense of justification.

In my experience, the best critiques don't come from those that hated a game before they ever played it.

Going a little too e-psychologist methinks. Sure, maybe some people here are masochistic, but I think that's a little bit of a contrived explanation you have there. I think a much more reasonable explanation is that one doesn't really see the whole picture from forum posts, reviews, or whatnot. You only see snippets of people's thoughts on a game, and usually only those relevant to game news (e.g. reactions to details in a preview). That's not really indicative of a person's feelings on the whole about a game. While a person might think that such and such design feature is stupid, and such and such game doesn't look up to par with the classics, they might still find it possibly worth a try. And above all else, hope dies last.

And you also have to take into account the idea that everyone on the internet probably uses a little bit of hyperbole too. We're human, it's the virtual version of getting really worked up about the playoffs, or a grossly exaggerated recounting of an experience. Add that in to the fact that we as humans tend to harp on the negative much more than the positive and I think you've got a lot of simpler, more reasonable explanations than the idea that people play games that they hate just to bitch about it on the internet (especially with forums and Wikipedia around to yank some "impressions" from).
 

Morbus

Scholar
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
403
Gragt said:
I don't see why knowing the process of creation would influence the review of the final product. It might be interesting in some cases to know how it was done, and it might help to understand how and why some parts succeeded or failed, but that's about it.
If you don't know how things are done (as opposed to how they were done in the specific case of the game your talking about), you can't have any realistic expectation of what they could or should be.

Given that, of course, it doesn't take much to understand the basis of game development. Still, most people don't, and that's my point. How can you convince someone that Dungeon Siege is a badly designed game when they don't know anything about game design and stil like it? I mean, it's like going up to a person who uses Windows 95 and is completely satisfied with it and expect to convince him that his OS is bad (let alone convince him to chance, lol).

Maybe it's more the knowledge of how good a game can be rather than how it is actually done, but in practical terms, it amounts for the same exact thing.

Gragt said:
If you review a game, you can appreciate directly if the mecanics work or not, if the gameplay gets stale or introduce elements over time to keep the formula fresh and challenging, if the different elements work well together, etc.
Exactly. If you don't know the importance of those things, you can't be on the lookout for them.

Let's take a history lesson. I think. Fifteen years ago, game design (general game design) was very undeveloped compared to now. And people didn't expect much out of most games. Most hits were hits without accomplishing much in the field. Sega Rally is an extremely boring game, and still it sold like hell (and I loved it myself). Or whatever.

Today, Sega Rally Revo is a much more complex and evolved game, and it tanked. Because game design developed to the point where (in most fields, maybe not so much in RPG, as awkward as it may seem), if you don't design your game consistently, you won't be successful. Not because people are aware of it, but because other games will get good desings, and they'll crush yours. That's the reason why people stopped disliking games. They don't know anything about them, and objectively looking, they're all very good, at least compared to 10 or 15 years ago (maybe not RPG, ok).

It's the difference between quality and percieved quality. Take WoW as an example. It's design is very complex, as some of you may be able to see, but it doesn't transpire DIRECTLY into gameplay. A people who likes WoW may or may not be able to identify what makes the game a good game. Even if it is a good game. They know it's addictive, they know is preetaah, they know it's fun. But that's NOTHING, that's so subjective you can't build any criticism on that.

Having said that, it's that percieved quality that matters in terms of sales, of course. Marketing, hype, graphics, all come into account. And those things don't matter (at least marketing and hype) when looking at the actual quality of a title. And you think a person that doesn't know how games are done, or how they appear in the minds of their creators can objectively look past those blinds of marketing and graphics?

Seriously, why do you think game journalism is so bad these days? Generally speaking, that is.

Volourn said:
Mor elike I'm not good enough for any woman. m i rite or m i rite!?!
Genius :lol:

Volourn said:
The fact you felt desperate enough to comapre liking a video game to thing called loving a woman (or man depending on YOUR preference) is ridiculous.
The fact that you can't establish a relationship between the feelings of liking and loving is, in itself, a demonstration of how close minded you are.

Not that I blame you, of course. You are a character, and like most characters, they can't change, otherwise they'll seem too much complicated and convoluted to the common reader.
 

Morbus

Scholar
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
403
Of course you are genetically engineered NOT to read whats between parenthesis.

So you have no say.
 

elander_

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,015
Dionysus said:
Criticism can include, but is not limited to bitching. Traditionally, critics are skilled in overall judgment, not just pissing and moaning.

Your perversion is characterized by the fact that bitching is the ultimate goal. You want to bitch about videogames, and playing games that you don't like is a means to that end. It's a chore. It's hoop that you need to jump through so you can complain on the net with some sense of justification.

In my experience, the best critiques don't come from those that hated a game before they ever played it.

That would depend of what you consider bitching and moaning. The arguments you dismiss as bitching may be just your ineptitude to listen to other people and argue properly. Trying to argue what is a good argument or good criticism making posts that are only about calling people names makes you look like a retard.

Marquis de Retardot said:
Common sense really, unless you're a masochist -- Volourn makes a good point! :aiee:

Some people enjoy game design discussions. The reason why some games are discussed over and over again is because they make good points. People always discuss Fallout, Arcanum, XCom, JA2, Baldurs Gate, Planescape here in a positive manner all the time but only the ones that are pointed out as bad examples of game design are used as proof for anti-codex bitches who are buttraped because someone doesn't like their favorite game.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
Morbus said:
How can you convince someone that Dungeon Siege is a badly designed game when they don't know anything about game design and stil like it? I mean, it's like going up to a person who uses Windows 95 and is completely satisfied with it and expect to convince him that his OS is bad (let alone convince him to chance, lol).
If someone is completely satisfied with product X, you can't convince him/her that product X is bad. Deep understanding of the product (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with it.

If I like some stupid game, I don't care if it's badly designed. What matters to me is that I enjoyed it. Exhibit A.

Fifteen years ago, game design (general game design) was very undeveloped compared to now.
Darklands? XCOM? Daggerfall? Realms of Arkania? Assorted Ultima games? Betrayal at Krondor?
 

elander_

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,015
And why not Laser Squad for the Spectrum microcomputer? The game that preceded XCom from the same designer. That game is more tactical and challenging that most games to the current date.
 

Morbus

Scholar
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
403
Vault Dweller said:
If someone is completely satisfied with product X, you can't convince him/her that product X is bad. Deep understanding of the product (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with it.

If I like some stupid game, I don't care if it's badly designed. What matters to me is that I enjoyed it. Exhibit A.
Does that impede you to see that it IS badly designed?

Vault Dweller said:
Darklands? XCOM? Daggerfall? Realms of Arkania? Assorted Ultima games? Betrayal at Krondor?
What do parenthesis mean these days? That what's inside them mean nothing? Do you want me to go and edit the post?

VentilatorOfDoom said:
Morbid is webdesigner n shit, plz listen to him, k?
ya fanny

fanny-pack.jpg
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
What do parenthesis mean these days?

Dunno what yours mean, actually. What is this "general game design" you're talking about?

Because general or not general I can't see how is it good today and not worse.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
Morbus said:
Does that impede you to see that it IS badly designed?
Bad design is a very subjective concept. It means different things to different people. For example, some people think that good design is epic storytelling. Some people think that good design is non-linearity and meaningful choices, which is pretty much the opposite of epic (read as linear) storytelling where you move from point A to point B to watch increasingly epic cutscenes.

For everyone who loved Oblivion, the game wasn't poorly designed and that's my point.

Vault Dweller said:
Darklands? XCOM? Daggerfall? Realms of Arkania? Assorted Ultima games? Betrayal at Krondor?
What do parenthesis mean these days? That what's inside them mean nothing? Do you want me to go and edit the post?
I must confess that I have no idea what general game design means and how it's different from non-general game design.
 

Dionysus

Scholar
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
345
Edward_R_Murrow said:
Going a little too e-psychologist methinks. Sure, maybe some people here are masochistic, but I think that's a little bit of a contrived explanation you have there.
I don't think so. There are some obvious joke accounts here, like Skyway. And people certainly do exaggerate for effect, but if you look back at pre- and post-release responses to Oblivion, for example, I think you'll see a lot of masochistic behavior. It's a mix, which is probably Volourn's point. People that purport to engage in this behavior are either self-destructive or dishonest.

elander_ said:
That would depend of what you consider bitching and moaning. The arguments you dismiss as bitching may be just your ineptitude to listen to other people and argue properly. Trying to argue what is a good argument or good criticism making posts that are only about calling people names makes you look like a retard.
That doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion.
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
Spectacle said:
However, if you understand the design process you can determine if a game will be good or bad without playing it.

How? Understanding the concepts of game design, and having an army of spies in the industry to feed you news on development isn't the worst method for predicting the quality of a game. But it still would be horribly inaccurate. Once you allow for the lack of information on current development efforts, it's more accurate to just say "bad" for everything.

Morbus said:
Knowing whether a game is good or bad is NOT the same as liking a game or not.

Right, like is directly subjective, while good/bad is indirectly subjective. Good/Bad is based on some set of criteria to allow for objective analysis, but the criteria themselves are completely subjective and can change rapidly.

So if you're tired of people saying "that's just your opinion", take a few minutes to codify what is important to you in video games. Then in the future, you can say "blah is an objectively bad game because ...." and be the smug internet prick you always wanted to be!

This general misconception that taste equal critical approach is so boring. Seriously. If you wanna criticize a game, if you wanna say "this game is good because" and "this game is bad because", then you HAVE to understand the process of making a game. If you don't, stick to the "I like this game because" and "I don't like this game because".

What a fucking douchebag. If you want to be all objective, then fucking be objective. Criteria that can make a game good or bad need to be completely isolated from the game development process (whatever the fuck that is). Gamers do not and should not care about the changing landscape of game design.

If voice acting makes a game better, then it always has and always will. Don't bring in developer baggage and say that pre-CDROM, it wasn't important, but now it is. The same for dynamic lighting, physics, ai, .... If you "educate" your critical opinion with developer excuses, you are failing the consumer.

If I sit on a chair and it breaks, it is a bad chair. Knowing that the guy that made it only had $13 to spend on materials doesn't make it a good chair. If the world outlawed the production of sturdy chairs in 2005, and that the chair was built to the highest quality allowed doesn't make it a good chair either - it just means there won't be any more good chairs made.
 

Hümmelgümpf

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
2,949
Location
St. Petersburg, Russia
Edward_R_Murrow said:
That's cool about Bayonetta (still not sure if this will fall victim to the female character curse of action games)
Doesn't seem to be the case. Trailers don't show too much gameplay, but they do show that the speed is much, much higher than in Devil May Cry, approaching Ninja Gaiden levels. If Bayonetta keeps DMC's combo system that allows you to chain any attacks in any way you like, it has good chances to become one of the best action games ever made.
but I'm not sure such a short development cycle for Sigma 2 is a good thing. I'd rather they take their time and really deliver more than just a gimmicky port.
A year and a half of development time is more than enough to port a game and throw in some extra features. Two new playable characters may seem like a big addition at first, but I doubt they'll have more than one weapon each, so properly balancing them shouldn't take too long. Team Ninja has enough time, whether they'll make use of it and deliver a high quality product remains to be seen.
 

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