Dave Arneson really likes NWN

[Saint_Proverbius]

Dont need experience, just look at AoO's. Why in the hel would someone port a rule that was created to remove some of the problems in TB, to RT? In NWN AoO's were so out of place that they themselves made the combat ass. The first thing you do when you port a ruleset is see if its logically consistent.

Ah, but you still need them in real time to tell you how many opponents you can fight in a given round. Otherwise, you're just going to keep attacking the target you clicked on thirty seconds ago because it's not dead yet. They're just really problematic in real time because you have to deal with the animations going on in real time.

 

[Anonymous]

And it sucked balls to play a Ranger in NWN. And it was the first class I played in it, then I tried a Cleric and then I tried ye olde Uninstall class.

 

[EEVIAC]

And it sucked balls to play a Ranger in NWN. And it was the first class I played in it, then I tried a Cleric and then I tried ye olde Uninstall class.

You should try multiclassing your Uninstall with a Defrag. Uber powerfull.

 

[Voss]

AoOs work good in TB because they make you plan out your stuff, and also prevent 'hit and run' sorta stuff, but even then it's still possible if the attack of opportunity is pulled on the enemy.

I remember once when I was playing D&D, there were 3 trolls in front of a door. The Wizard had casted invisibility and was on his flying carpet above them and a rogue snuck behind them.

The rogue used his AoO to backstab one, they all turn around and then the wizard uses his AoO of Fireball on them, then they turn back around, then the rogue does his AoO of backstab and so on, and those 2 managed to defeat 3 trolls without a single round of combat.

:shock:
Gods.

Thank you for that illustration of how to get the rules completely wrong.
*You* are definitely not qualified to comment on how any dev uses a PnP ruleset.

 

[Anonymous]

How am I not? It was pretty neat, DM said that's what happened so it did.

It might of been Fireball first, then backstab, then so on. It was 4 years ago.

 

[Voss]

Well, lets see.
Actually learning the rules would be helpful

a) you can't get attacks of opportunity outside of combat. The rogue and wizard could reasonably get a surprise round, but after that its combat rounds all the way.
b) you get *1* AoO per combat round (unless the character has combat reflexes
c) you can only make a single melee attack with an AoO. No spells, no wands, no magical girl transformation sequences.
d) you don't get AoO for creatures turning around (nothing has a facing in D&D. They actually have to move or do something that isn't combat related to provoke an AoO)
e) you can't get sneak attacks on creatures that are aware of you and not flanked/flat-footed or otherwise denied their dexterity bonus. So even if the
f) AoOs aren't an infinite series. They interrupt combat. Why are these trolls not doing anything? The wizard's invisibility would be gone as soon as he cast fireball, and the rogue would no longer be hiding after he attacked.

nitpick: sneak attack, not backstab.

Basically, everyone involved in this session needs to learn how combat works. Thats why.

 

[Anonymous]

Right, even people who were bystanders and wernt involved with combat at all. And then there's the 'Dont argue with the DM' overarching rule.

You know Voss, you remind me of those really really fat guys with the sassy attitude that boarderlines on Christopher Lowell-esque flamboyance. You got the big glasses with the bar on them, the pony tail and scraggly beard, unfitting faded black shirt. You know, kinda like the Comic Book Guy, except even more sad.

 

[Voss]

You did ask, and D&D isn't exactly complex.

And which overarching rule is that then? Sure you don't nitpick the poor bastard to death, but if he's running the game he should have some fucking clue as to what he's doing.

And please, no temper tantrums.

 

[Volourn]

Voss, they were using Rule 0. That's allowed.

That said, Llama's example has the worste xample of how to use D&D's rules by the book. Yet he dares complain about BIo uses D&D rules. They didn't even screw AOOs that badly.

 

[Sol Invictus]

What the fark is rule 0?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Its the excuse Volourn and a select few others use to excuse company's bad usage of rulesets, namely, Bioware. To him its all fun and games as long as it doesn't visibly affect gameplay.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Voss is right to question your DM, Pat. I've never even played 3rd Edition D&D, and I knew pretty much all that he said based on playing the games that use 3rd Edition.

 

[Sheriff05]

What the fark is rule 0?

Rule 0, is "there are no rules". It's ultimate cop out for justifying your inability to "follow the rules" simply because you don't like something about the rule set.
This edict has grown out the old Gygax disclaimer in the 1st Ed that said, *if you don't like something about the rules, feel free to change them..it's your game.*
The complete ass-rape of this concept, (which is also misconstrued by many to be
"the spirit of the game" *cough*)
is responsible for all kinds of D&D fuck-ups, a classic example being NWN.
personally, I don't think it's an excuse for making moronic game design decisions.

 

[Sheriff05]

Thank you for that illustration of how to get the rules completely wrong.
*You* are definitely not qualified to comment on how any dev uses a PnP ruleset.

I have to point out that AoO's are the one thing that is MOST often misused and misunderstood by all forms of D&D gamers and that slight *bump* in NO WAY invaildates any of Llama's criticisms, it's pretty fucking elitist of you to call him out on that in the context of this discussion. it's your right to rules lawyer, but it's bullshit.
Misunderstanding the implemtation of a certain *rule* is alot different that invoking *rule 0*
everytime something gets in the way.

 

[Volourn]

Huh, Sherriff? Llama's example of AOO is so far removed from D&D's "offficial" version; it's not even funny. It has nothing to do with misninterpreation unless Llama and his group can't read. And, last i chekced, Llama is a pretty smart guy so it can't be that.

And, rule 0 is the spirit of DnD. Deal with it. Let me ask ya soiemthing. Do you use every DnD rule as written in your pnp games? I seriously doubt it, and if you do whoa... that's all i could say.

 

[Voss]

Pointing out that someone is showing a complete lack of understanding about D&D combat and how it works (when its been argued by many, many people here that its the center of the entire game) isn't rules lawyering. When half a dozen things are wrong in a short example, its not a slight bump of misunderstanding. Its a fairly complete lack of knowledge

Especially when he posts things like:

I disliked it became I came for the D&D and got nothing, and by shredding off all the good bits of D&D

and

Well, if I wanted to play a D&D game, I would like it to actually have D&D in it. D&D in itsself has fun combat

and so on...

If he doesn't have any real understanding of how it actually works, how can he miss it?
His lack of knowledge invalidates his points pretty well.

As for rule 0... don't care. I've never mentioned it before. I frankly don't give a rat's ass about it. My point was that LG demonstrated enough ignorance about D&D combat that he really shouldn't be jumping on the bandwagon of criticism about D&D combat.

 

[Sheriff05]

Huh, Sherriff? Llama's example of AOO is so far removed from D&D's "offficial" version; it's not even funny. It has nothing to do with misninterpreation unless Llama and his group can't read. And, last i chekced, Llama is a pretty smart guy so it can't be that.
.

Point being, you fucking dullard is that just because his DM fucked up the use of AoO's that doesn't invalidate his criticisms of NWN. Voss's using that in an effort to discredit his arguments is bullshit. I agree Llama's DM needs to be slapped silly for fucking up AoO's that badly, but that is irrelvant to the context of the discussion.

 

[Volourn]

I think voss covered it just fine. How can someone who doens't even underatnd or know the rules even have the gull to claim they miss them? What silly goose.

 

[Sheriff05]

Pointing out that someone is showing a complete lack of understanding about D&D combat and how it works (when its been argued by many, many people here that its the center of the entire game) isn't rules lawyering. When half a dozen things are wrong in a short example, its not a slight bump of misunderstanding. Its a fairly complete lack of knowledge

His criticisms are valid, I'll let him defend them.
I am pointing out the AoO's are the most often abused amd misused thing in 3rd Ed PnP.
just because his DM royally fucked them up in that example
does that mean he has a complete lack of knowledge of D&D combat?

As for rule 0... don't care. I've never mentioned it before. I frankly don't give a rat's ass about it. My point was that LG demonstrated enough ignorance about D&D combat that he really shouldn't be jumping on the bandwagon of criticism about D&D combat.

I didn't say you did, although you do sound like your jumping on the excuse making "rule 0" bandwagon.

If you want to try to legitimize NWN's bending of the rules to some greater point
or that the game somehow has any form of "legitimacy" when it comes to following the *3rd Ed rules*, please elaborate.

 

[Voss]

Posting an example of his DM's fuck ups as a example of D&D combat without realizing what was wrong... yeah it does show a lack of knowledge on his part.
Just because a particular brand of ignorance is common, does it mean its fine, dandy and should be ignored even if its relevant to the discussion.

If your going to let him defend his criticisms, why are you jumping in?

Oh, I can legitimize how people use the D&D rules? Cool. All bow down before my power!

 

[Spazmo]

How is this 'rule 0' specifically the spirit of D&D? Doesn't pretty much every P&P RPG ever include that disclaimer? I'd be rather surprised if any games include something like "follow our rules to the letter or we will murder you in your sleep."

So if the spirit of D&D is something that's essentially in all the other games, what does that say about D&D?

 

[Anonymous]

Fine, the DM was wrong. But it happened and I thought it was nifty. OH WELL. I'm WRONG and you STILL SUCK.

 

[Sheriff05]

If your going to let him defend his criticisms, why are you jumping in?

I thought it was cheap shot at Llamagod who I think is
a) funny and b) "dead on" in his characterizations of NWN.
regardless of his DM's misunderstanding of AoO's

How is this 'rule 0' specifically the spirit of D&D? Doesn't pretty much every P&P RPG ever include that disclaimer? I'd be rather surprised if any games include something like "follow our rules to the letter or we will murder you in your sleep."

The reason I brought that up is that in a thread the other day ( which examined *what* is the essence of D&D ,"combat" or "roleplaying") Those who favored the roleplaying as the basis of game used "rule 0" as their scapegoat for *why* a tactical wargame became the homeless shelter for frustrated actors. It makes no sense to me how "the spirit of" any game can be *not* to follow it's own rules but that seems to be the platform of many NWN fans.

 

[Volourn]

Uh no. That's my platform. Most NWN fans do care about the rules. If youa ctually read the NWN boards; you'd know 90% of the posts are bitching about the rules implemantion. If you'd get out of your butt for a seocnd; you'd know that most NWN fans are on your side in this regard. At least the vocal net ones are.

 

[Sheriff05]

Uh no. That's my platform. Most NWN fans do care about the rules. If youa ctually read the NWN boards; you'd know 90% of the posts are bitching about the rules implemantion. If you'd get out of your butt for a seocnd; you'd know that most NWN fans are on your side in this regard. At least the vocal net ones are.

90% is a pretty big stretch, like time I checked all I saw was people bitching about not being able to have colored names, because colored names are cool!.
Did I imagine the shitload of *fans* over there who lobbied for unlimited levels, stupid prestige classes and numerous epic feats that don't even exist in the stupid epic level book, who really just wanted options to max out their 40th level characters on MMORPG-style servers?
I will agree there are some diehards who still hope that better combat rules can be implemented thru 3rd party modders, but most of my group I played with over at NWC, gave the game up soon after 1.31 had tons of unacknowledged toolset and DM client errors and we saw the direction HotU was going. I really don't know anyone who gives a shit about NWN anymore, so *yes* my opinion is based strictly on my time with the game which ended shorty after the release of SoU.