Dave Arneson really likes NWN

[Vault Dweller]

One of the DnD forefathers, <a href=http://www.castleblackmoor.com>Dave Arneson</a>, had a <a href=http://www.dignews.com/feature.php?story_id=2514>chat</a> with <a href=http://www.dignews.com>Digital News</a> about various things.

<blockquote><i>Who would you say is getting it all right? What published, what developer makes near perfect games?</i>

None. Again, I think they're under a lot of preasure to get the game out and a lot of them cut corners ....

I mean, you want to ask me about some of the new role playing games they're coming out with, and some have been very good! Don't get me wrong. But again, I wouldn't have done it that way. I played Neverwinter Nights. I've got it installed on my machine. It's still there. That puts it up with only three games that are still installed on my machine. Warcraft, Age of Empires, Neverwinter Nights.

<i>If you could jump on a development team and direct a project, who would you join?</i>

Oh, I'd probably like work with the Neverwinter Nights people at some point. They seem to have a good notion about what to do. I'm sure some of the things they don't do are their decisions, machine decisions, etc. I've learned enough about computers and programming from this school to understand this better over the last four and a half years. It's easy to say "Oh, they're not doing it right." But, could they do it any other way? Well, the answer is probably no, at this point. Also, you've got to get the game done in a couple of years.</blockquote>
Looks like Dave bought the propaganda.

Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.gengamers.com">GenGamers</A>

 

[Anonymous]

Surprising that someone that made something can stand such a bastardized version of it so much that'd he wants to help them bastardize it..

 

[Volourn]

I think it's more the fact he realzies there's more to DnD than just the same old rules, and that the only rules that matter are Rule 0. Period.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Or maybe he kept his dice, but lost his marbles

 

[Spazmo]

Also, you've got to get the game done in a couple of years.

Yeah, just like the NWN team did.

 

[Volourn]

LOL VD. Perhaps.

Spazmo, heh. So true. :twisted:

 

[taks]

good thing everybody here has so much experience porting a pnp ruleset to computer in a RT w/pause setting that they're qualified to comment on such issues... oh wait, nobody has?

sheesh...

taks

 

[Volourn]

Or for that matter; a tb system which still can't implement theings perfectly...

 

[Vault Dweller]

Just because nobody here had done it, doesn't mean that we can't express our opinions on NWN and any other DnD PC games and then relate our opinions on said games to that of somebody else.

Point is NWN, especially NWN out of all Bio games, features a bastardized version of the ruleset that has little to do with PnP gameplay. ToEE, on the other hand, is a true adaptation, at least the best adaptation so far. So I don't see what a lame argument "what have you done" has to do with anything. By your logic, nobody can ever criticize any game if they haven't made any. That, taks, makes your criticism of ToEE as pointless as our criticism of ol' Dave here. Point made?

 

[Volourn]

Rule 0.

 

[taks]

give your whiny ass a rest, i never said nobody here was allowed to criticize or critique. by your statement MY opinion doesn't count so stuff a cork in it and stop being so hypocritical.

NWN has bastardized rules because of the type of game it is, period, not because bio doesn't know what they're doing. nobody in here has ever tried to implement a rule system designed SPECIFICALLY FOR PnP into a CRPG thereby rending any of our opinions on the matter into pretty much a load of crap (even mine) and nothing more than pure biased opinion. NWN was designed as RT w/ pause for a reason and their "bastardization" was a result of that. in spite of the fact that troika has the only "true" (whatever that means) implementation, they fucked their version up so bad as to shed serious doubt about their ability to follow up.

you can debate the differences between RT w/pause and TB all day and include every developer that ever worked on either (or both) and you'll still end up with a camp that thinks RT is better and just as many in the TB camp touting its virtues. it is a no-win argument based purely on opinion and personal taste. i happen to like both for different reasons.

taks

 

[Volourn]

I happen to like both for the same reason...

 

[Vault Dweller]

give your whiny ass a rest, i never said nobody here was allowed to criticize or critique. by your statement MY opinion doesn't count so stuff a cork in it and stop being so hypocritical.

I could never understand why some people feel the need to respond to criticism of their position with personal attacks. Always seemed kinda stupid to me. :wink:

NWN has bastardized rules because of the type of game it is, period, not because bio doesn't know what they're doing.

If you say so. Apparently NWN was the type of a game that limits you to one henchman on purpose, among other thing, just like KOTOR was the kind game that has 3 active combat skills. Now that calls for some serious eyes rolling

nobody in here has ever tried to implement a rule system designed SPECIFICALLY FOR PnP into a CRPG thereby rending any of our opinions on the matter into pretty much a load of crap (even mine) and nothing more than pure biased opinion.

True, but because we are familiar with the PnP version, it gives us something to compare any computer versions to. The fact that it's the best that could be done doesn't actually excuse crap.

NWN was designed as RT w/ pause for a reason and their "bastardization" was a result of that.

There are plenty of important DnD things that could be done even in RT/w pause, but weren't present in NWN, so your argument is incorrect.

in spite of the fact that troika has the only "true" (whatever that means) implementation, they fucked their version up so bad as to shed serious doubt about their ability to follow up.

And that would be your opinion. My opinion is that nothing was ever so fucked up as NWN was, yet there were 2 sequels released and the last one, according to Volourn, wasn't bad. So, your point is?

you can debate the differences between RT w/pause and TB all day and include every developer that ever worked on either (or both) and you'll still end up with a camp that thinks RT is better and just as many in the TB camp touting its virtues. it is a no-win argument based purely on opinion and personal taste. i happen to like both for different reasons.

I like both too and for different reasons as well. I never said anything about RT gameplay in this thread. You just assumed. You do know what happens when you assume, don't you? :wink:

 

[taks]

I could never understand why some people feel the need to respond to criticism of their position with personal attacks. Always seemed kinda stupid to me. :wink:

not really a personal attack... you were whining and i called you on it. now you're whining about me calling you on your whining... and i'm calling you on it. see a trend? if i had called you an idiot that would be a different story. i didn't.

If you say so. Apparently NWN was the type of a game that limits you to one henchman on purpose, among other thing, just like KOTOR was the kind game that has 3 active combat skills.

not anymore. the expansions solved that problem. multiple henchmen with full control over their inventory and limited control over their tactics and advancement. an improvement no doubt though i do prefer party based systems.

True, but because we are familiar with the PnP version, it gives us something to compare any computer versions to. The fact that it's the best that could be done doesn't actually excuse crap.

as i stated, you can't really compare. two different styles of games. PnP rules just plain don't translate to the computer very well. oh, and by the way, when was the last time you ran an entire party of 6 by yourself in PnP?

There are plenty of important DnD things that could be done even in RT/w pause, but weren't present in NWN, so your argument is incorrect.

i call bullshit on that one. maybe ther are things that could have been done, but that goes for ANY freaking game. my argument is just as valid as any other.

And that would be your opinion. My opinion is that nothing was ever so fucked up as NWN was, yet there were 2 sequels released and the last one, according to Volourn, wasn't bad. So, your point is?

hmmm... you obviously were playing the "better build" version of ToEE that didn't have a 20 page bug list. i can't wait till they release that version so i can play too.

I like both too and for different reasons as well. I never said anything about RT gameplay in this thread. You just assumed. You do know what happens when you assume, don't you? :wink:

i didn't assume anything VD, read my quote in the context which it was made. NWN has a lot of rules "issues" because it is RT. ToEE does not have as many because it is TB. D&D is a TB rule set so the port is much easier to accomplish (for most rules). if NWN were TB, a more direct comparison would certainly make sense. as it stands, changes have to be made to accomodate the difference... particularly balancing (though i think both NWN and ToEE got balanced too much in favor of the PC.)

taks

 

[Vault Dweller]

not really a personal attack... you were whining and i called you on it. now you're whining about me calling you on your whining... and i'm calling you on it. see a trend? if i had called you an idiot that would be a different story. i didn't.

You have some weird definitions of whining, I give you that. And yes, I consider that a personal attack in a discussion. As in "I'm running out of arguments, so I'll call other people's arguments whining". But whatever, be my guest, if that amuses you.

If you say so. Apparently NWN was the type of a game that limits you to one henchman on purpose, among other thing, just like KOTOR was the kind game that has 3 active combat skills.

not anymore. the expansions solved that problem. multiple henchmen with full control over their inventory and limited control over their tactics and advancement. an improvement no doubt though i do prefer party based systems.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you say multiple don't you mean 2? Besides the conversation was about NWN not NWN and all its sequels and fan made content. Don't you think that trying to fit a party based system into sp+1 mode was the biggest bastardization of all, considering that there weren't any class specific ways to handle things.

There are plenty of important DnD things that could be done even in RT/w pause, but weren't present in NWN, so your argument is incorrect.

i call bullshit on that one. maybe ther are things that could have been done, but that goes for ANY freaking game. my argument is just as valid as any other.

You can call whatever you want, but it's a lame way of arguing. Btw, you know what I heard work well in a RT environment? Meaningful dialogues and all kinda DnD speech skills. So let's not blame all NWN problems on RT.

hmmm... you obviously were playing the "better build" version of ToEE that didn't have a 20 page bug list. i can't wait till they release that version so i can play too.

You obviously haven't seen the NWN bug list.

i didn't assume anything VD, read my quote in the context which it was made.

Ok, let;s see:
I said that NWN bastardized DnD
You said that it's because of RT
I pointed out that there are some DnD things don't depend on the combat mode
You said that we "can debate the differences between RT w/pause and TB all day"
Then I said that you assumed that I'm talking about the combat mode.
So?

NWN has a lot of rules "issues" because it is RT. ToEE does not have as many because it is TB. D&D is a TB rule set so the port is much easier to accomplish (for most rules). if NWN were TB, a more direct comparison would certainly make sense. as it stands, changes have to be made to accomodate the difference... particularly balancing (though i think both NWN and ToEE got balanced too much in favor of the PC.)

Once again, while RT was the reason for combat rules bastardization, it's not the only DnD problem with NWN. That was my point all along. As much as I dislike the RT DnD, I understand that Bio wanted to make a major hit for dummies and that was the only way to go. Business is business. However, there is no excuse for other fuckups gameplay-wise, like one henchman, lame pointless dialogues, and other things.

 

[Volourn]

Lame pointless dialogues? I should point out you that you shouldn't bring up TOEE's problems when disucsisng NWN. Thank you.

 

[Vault Dweller]

ToEE isn't a perfect game, by any standards. Hommlet is one of the most boring places I've ever seen, and I always skip it when I reply. That said, the dialogues and the speech skills in the temple were implemented very nicely. How many speech skills NWN had? One if I'm not mistaken. ToEE had 5, all were used. Same goes for other skills and feats.

 

[Volourn]

"lame pointless dialogues"

As much as you like to bash NWn OC; TOEE has it beat in this regard.

 

[Sammael]

NWN was a mockery of D&D rules, and no amount of "rule 0 appologism" can negate that. On the other hand, I've played NWN a lot more than I've played ToEE, which (mostly) got the rules right.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

"lame pointless dialogues"

As much as you like to bash NWn OC; TOEE has it beat in this regard.

No way. Not when NWN has such brilliant plot dialogue as being able to accuse Desther of being evil, Desther getting all pissed off at the accusation, Fenthick steps in and says you're probably kidding, then nothing happens - even though you weren't kidding because you used your wisdom to figure that out. Maybe it wouldn't be so lame and pointless, but they use that same conversation not once, not twice, but *three* times in the first act of the game.

 

[worsie]

taks, you 've hit the nail right on the head! :D

See, even after NWN 2 or the next major succesful RPG from BioWare is released, they will still complain about how NWN is the worst game ever, because what else will they have to talk about here on the rpgcodex, where teh kewlest people in role-playing are hanging out? Maybe how TOEE is still the best recent RPG despite the fact that it is unplayable at the moment? (Yes, I know the 2nd pacth will fix ALL the problems and make it a fun game )

So, even if HotU is fun and allows module creators to have more than 2 henchmen (as argued above), they just don't want to know that people that really knows what they are talking about, people like Dave Arneson, see just how revolutionary a game the NWN package is.

Now, if any of the d00dz here will still speak to me: how many of you played HotU, didn't like it and removed it from your disk and don't play any of the community modules?

 

[Anonymous]

I didnt play HotU because my natural instincts tell me that I will recieve pain again from playing NWN again.

And we complain about NWN because it's:

A bad RPG
A bad adaption of Dungeons and Dragons, which is low on roleplaying to begin with

So look at it this way, what happens when you remove combat and the bits of roleplaying from D&D and try to make a game out of it? You end up with nothing, which is what NWN was. A silly cash cow that joins the other 'omg d&d in realtime = TEH MONIES' games, which too happen to be terrible.

And we have our small dislike of BioWare because up to this point, that is all they have made (with KOTOR being the except and that silly console game that is coming out, too).

Now, they are a pretty capable company, but they dont do anything with their ability.

My main problem with NWN is how horrid the D&D system is in it, I would be perfectly content with playing the few good player modules (Lets face it, alot suck, I mean..it's people from the BioWare community making this shit!), but it's kinda hard too when everything sucks so much. It's just a bad game, period. They took whatever was great about D&D, cut it out and pasted on some of the worst crap i've ever had the misfortune of playing (and i've played Tekwar).

 

[worsie]

So, if you never touched DnD in your life and NWN is the absolute first game that you played that is supposed to use DnD, would it still suck?

Or is it your knowledge of how things in DnD are supposed to work that make you dislike the game so much?

Am I right in saying the following:

- Fallout, Divine Divinity and a few others use their own RPG system and the people on rpgcodex ejoy these games (as far as I can tell)

- ToEE uses DnD, but sticks mostly to the rules, so even though the game is buggy as hell, you all like it more than NWN because of said rule implementation.

- NWN on the other hand says it uses DnD rules, but does it badly ( in your opinion ), so even though HotU may be an enjoyable game, it still sucks because of the rules?

Do you agree that it is possible for a person new to RPG's to really enjoy HotU, because they would care less about which rules are translated properly and which not?

 

[Anonymous]

So, if you never touched DnD in your life and NWN is the absolute first game that you played that is supposed to use DnD, would it still suck?

So you're saying NWN fans are ignorant? Good deal.

Or is it your knowledge of how things in DnD are supposed to work that make you dislike the game so much?

I disliked it became I came for the D&D and got nothing, and by shredding off all the good bits of D&D, it became a mediocre and crappy RPG. Weak and terrible in pretty much every aspect.

Am I right in saying the following:

- Fallout, Divine Divinity and a few others use their own RPG system and the people on rpgcodex ejoy these games (as far as I can tell)

Yes, but from what I know, they like DD because it's fun and like Fallout because it's pretty much a masterpiece, in our tastes.

- ToEE uses DnD, but sticks mostly to the rules, so even though the game is buggy as hell, you all like it more than NWN because of said rule implementation.

Well, if I wanted to play a D&D game, I would like it to actually have D&D in it. D&D in itsself has fun combat and ToEE was just that, D&D and combat, so add it all together and I get a fun game. Personally, crying 'Bugs!' doesnt ward me off from a game (Hell, I got and played NWN the day it came out. Yow.), and the only bugs that really make me agitated at all are CTDs, I didnt mind. And personally again, I didnt have any bug problems.

For NWN, I wanted to play it because it was D&D, but D&D was M.I.A come the start up, nothing else of the game was good, so I scrapped it.

- NWN on the other hand says it uses DnD rules, but does it badly ( in your opinion ), so even though HotU may be an enjoyable game, it still sucks because of the rules?

If you wanted a Ferrai because they are fast and fun to drive, and got one sold to you to later find out it's a Volvo with the name changed, but still runs well in some people's opinions, would you still want to drive it, despite you getting gyped out and having less of a fun experience, since it's all missing? If so, I have a Ferrai for sale, sir.

Do you agree that it is possible for a person new to RPG's to really enjoy HotU, because they would care less about which rules are translated properly and which not?

To be honest, when I was new to RPGs, I liked Balur's Gate. I kept buying RPGs and buying them, and I found Fallout. After that, I learned how damn good a well designed RPG is, and Fallout's aspects far exceeded Baldur's Gate. Fast foward a few years and here I am, in the thick of folks who love good RPGs, my tastes have advanced, I guess. I dont like all these piss-poor RPGs anymore, but I hold the ones that are truely great in high regard. ToEE was very fun, but it wasnt Uber Mega Epic RPG or whatever, but it was a great D&D game. I hold it in regard as the best D&D out, but it's not very close to getting on the games I think are the best ever, to put it clearly.

So yes, it's possible for a new person to enjoy HotU, but that is because they are a new person. So what you're saying is, someone who really liked HotU is ignorant of better things and inexperienced? I'd think someone like that could like mostly anything.

 

[worsie]

No, I say you can be very experienced in games and like still like NWN, if you are not a rules-nazi.

Dave Arneson knows DnD better than all of you and he enjoys NWN. Why? Because he knows rules are good, but he also knows that changing the rules does not take away the fun.

As you say, a lot of the Community-made modules are crap, but a lot of them are really, really good. Judging from what I read here and on the BioWare forums, there are people in the NWN community that are just as clued up as you lot, but they know a good piece of software when they see it.

Even Visceris seems to enjoy NWN more now, because he, as everybody else, knows that the original NWN OC was bad, but we have moved on quite a bit from then. He seems to be thinking outside the box these days :D