Grand Strategy Crusader Kings III

[Heroic Liberator]

Meh DLC, meh patch accompanying it.

 

[Akachi]

Modding this game is so bad compared to CK2, as both user and modder. The few times I've tried playing this game and installed a few mods to try to make it slightly better, it always gets a patch that breaks save and mod compatibility soon after, then even if you try to use the Steam beta feature to go to an old version it doesn't matter because the Steam Workshop everyone uses for mods has no version control at all, so everything will update one by one becoming incompatible with the old version. I you go to the new version, someone will be late updating their mod, so it might be nothing works at all on either version.

This sounds like a problem you'd get from having a lot of mods, but all it takes is a few, like 5-10, because unlike CK2 where mods were posted on forums allowing for manual updating and version control, and typically large overhauls or smaller mods dependent on or compatible with them, it is all horrible piecemeal modding like a Bethesda game complete with compatibility patches.

The one time I was able to play for a bit without this happening, I found out some mod made the game unplayable for more than a century or two because of some sort of savegame bloat that would lead to your save file becoming so large, you couldn't save anymore and it would hang permanently, and I couldn't figure out any way to troubleshoot it to narrow down what mod it was like I would have been able to in CK2. Logs were useless, and savegames harder to uncompress while lacking much useful information. I forget, I think there was obfuscation and optimisation even "uncompressed" and a lack of the data I expected to narrow it down.

Seemed like an engine issue really. My guess was there was superfluous data being saved on every dead character permanently, like some sort of mod script data, and in combination with character population increasing with time it became unplayable, since nothing I was using seemed like it should be causing that much bloat. No one else reported issues with mods I was using, but maybe CK3 players don't play campaigns for more than a century.

The engine is so bad compared to CK2's. It amazes me how much you could do in CK2 modding that you can't in CK3 script. From what I recall taking a look, events were gutted compared to CK2; no wonder they are all pointless fluff adding traits to characters to fit the event. Can't remember if it was possible to make them have complex trigger requirements like in CK2. I think the CK3 way to do it was primarily based on triggering randomly after X amount of time, more time-based rather than random chance based on arbitrary quality and quantity of conditions. CK3 players say the engine is better optimised, yet CK2 could have huge character populations where you even remove the hidden limits on fertility applied to large courts, and deletion of characters the engine deems "unimportant", and tons of conditional events that could trigger even from courtiers and barons, and it ran fine to the end date—all on older hardware. Yet CK3 is so well optimised, for performance it has to gut how events work completely and severely limit population much worse than CK2?

Every now and then, I check out the state of CK3 modding hoping it got something like CK2's Historical Immersion Project. Seems there never will be anything similar, and no wonder since the base game is so much worse with zero focus on history and terrible modding support. Terrible DLC too. No surprise all the best CK2 modders didn't even bother. I was acquaintances with a few and I remember they took a look and gave up on CK3 right after release. The most popular CK3 mods are old and from not long after release, kept on life support with minor additions every now and then. Sad really, it's like the Grand Strategy RPG genre both matured and died with CK2.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

Wow, CKIII sucks for modding? I thought it was even better, has so many interesting features for modding potential. Weird.
I haven't looked deep enough CKIII to know.

Talking about Performance... did it get better? Thinking about loading it up again on my comp.


Query: Anyone knows how to change the path of the CKII mod folder? Someone here taught me a trick but it didn't work.

 

[Akachi]

Wow, CKIII sucks for modding? I thought it was even better, has so many interesting features for modding potential. Weird.
I haven't looked deep enough CKIII to know.

CK2 had a lot of script functionality added throughout its life cycle, but CK3 is closer to CK2 at release without all of this. To give a couple examples, in CK2 as of patch 2.8 you could make a decision that has a "third party filter" which means a targeted decision can also require a second target (who is the third party), but from what I recall this functionality is not available in CK3 at all. As of patch 3.0 that came with Holy Fury, you could further apply "scripted score values" to these third party targets in order to assign them arbitrary values to determine how good they are for the decision, based on e.g traits and abilities of a character (or whatever you can think of). Scripted score values do not exist in CK3.

As a more practical example, since it may not be obvious what you'd actually be able to do with these two features, third party filters and scripted score values allow for things like creating a slavery system where slaves have prices based on their abilities and can be sold for a price determined by a scripted score, or even traded between characters. In CK3 all of this is impossible, because you can't have a targeted decision with a third party (i.e. you can't target a character, pick a decision, then the decision lets you pick another character) and there is no way to apply scripted score values to characters.

Of course, such simulationism is unfortunately a bit pointless in CK3 in any case due to how it treats characters in general, since courtiers are unimportant and purged nonstop from AI courts for performance, and AI character traits don't matter since events constantly change them as they fancy rather than base what happens off of them.

 

[Axioms]

Wow, CKIII sucks for modding? I thought it was even better, has so many interesting features for modding potential. Weird.
I haven't looked deep enough CKIII to know.

CK2 had a lot of script functionality added throughout its life cycle, but CK3 is closer to CK2 at release without all of this. To give a couple examples, in CK2 as of patch 2.8 you could make a decision that has a "third party filter" which means a targeted decision can also require a second target (who is the third party), but from what I recall this functionality is not available in CK3 at all. As of patch 3.0 that came with Holy Fury, you could further apply "scripted score values" to these third party targets in order to assign them arbitrary values to determine how good they are for the decision, based on e.g traits and abilities of a character (or whatever you can think of). Scripted score values do not exist in CK3.

As a more practical example, since it may not be obvious what you'd actually be able to do with these two features, third party filters and scripted score values allow for things like creating a slavery system where slaves have prices based on their abilities and can be sold for a price determined by a scripted score, or even traded between characters. In CK3 all of this is impossible, because you can't have a targeted decision with a third party (i.e. you can't target a character, pick a decision, then the decision lets you pick another character) and there is no way to apply scripted score values to characters.

Of course, such simulationism is unfortunately a bit pointless in CK3 in any case due to how it treats characters in general, since courtiers are unimportant and purged nonstop from AI courts for performance, and AI character traits don't matter since events constantly change them as they fancy rather than base what happens off of them.

I'd expect that you can do all this stuff but you have to kludge it. Based on various Tobbzn mods I've looked into all of this should be possible. I guess I'd have to ask him about how you'd actually do it since it isn't as straightforward as CK2.

 

[Akachi]

I'd expect that you can do all this stuff but you have to kludge it. Based on various Tobbzn mods I've looked into all of this should be possible. I guess I'd have to ask him about how you'd actually do it since it isn't as straightforward as CK2.

If you could find out, I'd appreciate it since I'm curious, maybe I'd give modding the game (as in creating mods, don't know when modding came to mean consuming them) a chance again. I would be impressed if it's possible, especially displaying third party filter targets in a nice window with the scripted score values next to them. I suspect there's other CK2 script functionality missing, but was deterred enough from what I wanted to do to where I didn't mod for long enough to find out what else.

 

[Axioms]

I'd expect that you can do all this stuff but you have to kludge it. Based on various Tobbzn mods I've looked into all of this should be possible. I guess I'd have to ask him about how you'd actually do it since it isn't as straightforward as CK2.

If you could find out, I'd appreciate it since I'm curious, maybe I'd give modding the game (as in creating mods, don't know when modding came to mean consuming them) a chance again. I would be impressed if it's possible, especially displaying third party filter targets in a nice window with the scripted score values next to them. I suspect there's other CK2 script functionality missing, but was deterred enough from what I wanted to do to where I didn't mod for long enough to find out what else.

I would recommend going here and asking directly, since you know your own complaints in more detail than me: https://discord.com/invite/bYhScktJEv

That's Tobbzn's modding discord.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Weathered the Great Heathen Horde.

 

[Humanophage]

Just bought it - to play a mod, paradoxically enough. Only to find out they decided to remove ledgers. Ledgers are one of the most fun things about these games. How else are you supposed to compare your domain to others and derive satisfaction from your actions? It's also such a natural thing to have in any strategy. It's like people purposefully look for good things in games to then remove them.

 

[Forest Dweller]

It looks like facebook pictures eventually lose their signature.

It's a picture of Aella of Northumbria still holding on to all his territories after successful wars against the northmen.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Just bought it - to play a mod, paradoxically enough.

Which one?

 

[Humanophage]

Just bought it - to play a mod, paradoxically enough.

Which one?

Elder Kings 2. I am not that interested in CK3 itself as Paradox games usually remain unfinished for about 7-8 years while they're working on DLCs. It seemed EK2 was more popular than Elder Kings 1 and much beloved. I recently got into Elder Kings 1 in CK2, and it got me on a TES lore spree, just like Geheimnisnacht earlier got me on a Warhammer lore spree. It was so cozy and reasonable. But it turns out it has a fatal flaw. They added a ton of useless small buildings. This was only a minor issue in the original CK2 or other mods like After the End or Geheimnisnacht. But here if you have, say, 15 holdings, then you need to go to every holding and build every 40 Gold building manually. Given that there are about 5-7 times as many buildings, this renders the mod unplayable once you have enough money.

The autobuild mod for EK1 doesn't work as they had stopped updating it shortly before EK1 stopped getting updates, so they're incompatible.

I feel rather let down by both of those things (the absence of ledgers in CK3 and the building fiasco in EK1). I'm done with EK1, but I'll try to persevere and give EK2 a run. It's just somehow very sad that good things like ledgers must get removed. So much effort undermined by those inexplicable dumb decisions, and the change is in all the wrong directions. The whole interface looks trashy, like it has twice as little info with twice as much clicking around. Paradox games are first and foremost interface games, so it's very painful. This is again quite sad as the other new Paradox games like Stellaris and Imperator: Rome have a fairly sleek interface (despite some glaring errors like the absence of a convenient way to move pops in I:R).

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I'm done with EK1, but I'll try to persevere and give EK2 a run.

Gave it a try myself a few months back and I can't say that I was particularly impressed with it, although these fantasy overhaul mods tend to be eternal works in progress so who knows - might change my mind in the future once enough setting-specific content gets added to it (was more impressed with the Princes of Darkness mod, but that one also suffers from the same sort of incompleteness alongside having some janky mechanics specific to it that made its gameplay less enjoyable for me personally).

I'd recommend trying out an enhanced vanilla experience with some essential mods like RICE and Sinews of War once you get bored of EK2&co. (might as well given that you've paid money for the game). And definitely check out Fallen Eagle which is an excellent, historically grounded total conversion mod that lets you play in the early medieval period.

 

[Axioms]

Just bought it - to play a mod, paradoxically enough.

Which one?

Elder Kings 2. I am not that interested in CK3 itself as Paradox games usually remain unfinished for about 7-8 years while they're working on DLCs. It seemed EK2 was more popular than Elder Kings 1 and much beloved. I recently got into Elder Kings 1 in CK2, and it got me on a TES lore spree, just like Geheimnisnacht earlier got me on a Warhammer lore spree. It was so cozy and reasonable. But it turns out it has a fatal flaw. They added a ton of useless small buildings. This was only a minor issue in the original CK2 or other mods like After the End or Geheimnisnacht. But here if you have, say, 15 holdings, then you need to go to every holding and build every 40 Gold building manually. Given that there are about 5-7 times as many buildings, this renders the mod unplayable once you have enough money.

The autobuild mod for EK1 doesn't work as they had stopped updating it shortly before EK1 stopped getting updates, so they're incompatible.

I feel rather let down by both of those things (the absence of ledgers in CK3 and the building fiasco in EK1). I'm done with EK1, but I'll try to persevere and give EK2 a run. It's just somehow very sad that good things like ledgers must get removed. So much effort undermined by those inexplicable dumb decisions, and the change is in all the wrong directions. The whole interface looks trashy, like it has twice as little info with twice as much clicking around. Paradox games are first and foremost interface games, so it's very painful. This is again quite sad as the other new Paradox games like Stellaris and Imperator: Rome have a fairly sleek interface (despite some glaring errors like the absence of a convenient way to move pops in I:R).

Always wild how divisive the CK2 vs CK3 interface debate is. Many people think the CK3 interfact sucks and then many claim CK2 was unplayable compared to the CK3 interface.

 

[Humanophage]

Just bought it - to play a mod, paradoxically enough.

Which one?

Elder Kings 2. I am not that interested in CK3 itself as Paradox games usually remain unfinished for about 7-8 years while they're working on DLCs. It seemed EK2 was more popular than Elder Kings 1 and much beloved. I recently got into Elder Kings 1 in CK2, and it got me on a TES lore spree, just like Geheimnisnacht earlier got me on a Warhammer lore spree. It was so cozy and reasonable. But it turns out it has a fatal flaw. They added a ton of useless small buildings. This was only a minor issue in the original CK2 or other mods like After the End or Geheimnisnacht. But here if you have, say, 15 holdings, then you need to go to every holding and build every 40 Gold building manually. Given that there are about 5-7 times as many buildings, this renders the mod unplayable once you have enough money.

The autobuild mod for EK1 doesn't work as they had stopped updating it shortly before EK1 stopped getting updates, so they're incompatible.

I feel rather let down by both of those things (the absence of ledgers in CK3 and the building fiasco in EK1). I'm done with EK1, but I'll try to persevere and give EK2 a run. It's just somehow very sad that good things like ledgers must get removed. So much effort undermined by those inexplicable dumb decisions, and the change is in all the wrong directions. The whole interface looks trashy, like it has twice as little info with twice as much clicking around. Paradox games are first and foremost interface games, so it's very painful. This is again quite sad as the other new Paradox games like Stellaris and Imperator: Rome have a fairly sleek interface (despite some glaring errors like the absence of a convenient way to move pops in I:R).

Always wild how divisive the CK2 vs CK3 interface debate is. Many people think the CK3 interfact sucks and then many claim CK2 was unplayable compared to the CK3 interface.

CK3 lacks basic and obvious functionality. For example, why on earth did they remove the "will accept invitation" filter, so that now you have to click every character. Why do I need to zoom in so much to select counties (although there is a functional realm menu). There are all sorts of weird minor decisions as well, like inexplicably placing the icons slightly to the right of the column for which they are responsible. A lot of this seems aimed at artificially prolonging game time. Some of it also relies on mods for basic functionality. For example, there is bizarrely no terrain map in the game and you need to download a mod for it. For some reason, there is no income map. There are industrial amounts of empty interface space but things like map modes are hidden behind a plus button. Of course, the mods stop working any time an update happens, and then they get updated at a different rate, so it's impossible to get them working all at once.

There are a few things that aren't as bad as they seemed though. The 3D portraits are a bit of a downgrade compared to the late CK2 portraits (after all the DLCs), but they are disarmingly cute.

To be honest, I think that's it for me as Paradox games go, like Mass Effect was for Bioware. I also checked the main game, and they made Finns, Estonians, Merya, etc. into Asians. What a bunch of assholes.

 

[Atlantico]

and they made Finns, Estonians, Merya, etc. into Asians

Fingolians, yes that checks out

 

[Axioms]

Just bought it - to play a mod, paradoxically enough.

Which one?

Elder Kings 2. I am not that interested in CK3 itself as Paradox games usually remain unfinished for about 7-8 years while they're working on DLCs. It seemed EK2 was more popular than Elder Kings 1 and much beloved. I recently got into Elder Kings 1 in CK2, and it got me on a TES lore spree, just like Geheimnisnacht earlier got me on a Warhammer lore spree. It was so cozy and reasonable. But it turns out it has a fatal flaw. They added a ton of useless small buildings. This was only a minor issue in the original CK2 or other mods like After the End or Geheimnisnacht. But here if you have, say, 15 holdings, then you need to go to every holding and build every 40 Gold building manually. Given that there are about 5-7 times as many buildings, this renders the mod unplayable once you have enough money.

The autobuild mod for EK1 doesn't work as they had stopped updating it shortly before EK1 stopped getting updates, so they're incompatible.

I feel rather let down by both of those things (the absence of ledgers in CK3 and the building fiasco in EK1). I'm done with EK1, but I'll try to persevere and give EK2 a run. It's just somehow very sad that good things like ledgers must get removed. So much effort undermined by those inexplicable dumb decisions, and the change is in all the wrong directions. The whole interface looks trashy, like it has twice as little info with twice as much clicking around. Paradox games are first and foremost interface games, so it's very painful. This is again quite sad as the other new Paradox games like Stellaris and Imperator: Rome have a fairly sleek interface (despite some glaring errors like the absence of a convenient way to move pops in I:R).

Always wild how divisive the CK2 vs CK3 interface debate is. Many people think the CK3 interfact sucks and then many claim CK2 was unplayable compared to the CK3 interface.

CK3 lacks basic and obvious functionality. For example, why on earth did they remove the "will accept invitation" filter, so that now you have to click every character. Why do I need to zoom in so much to select counties (although there is a functional realm menu). There are all sorts of weird minor decisions as well, like inexplicably placing the icons slightly to the right of the column for which they are responsible. A lot of this seems aimed at artificially prolonging game time. Some of it also relies on mods for basic functionality. For example, there is bizarrely no terrain map in the game and you need to download a mod for it. For some reason, there is no income map. There are industrial amounts of empty interface space but things like map modes are hidden behind a plus button. Of course, the mods stop working any time an update happens, and then they get updated at a different rate, so it's impossible to get them working all at once.

There are a few things that aren't as bad as they seemed though. The 3D portraits are a bit of a downgrade compared to the late CK2 portraits (after all the DLCs), but they are disarmingly cute.

To be honest, I think that's it for me as Paradox games go, like Mass Effect was for Bioware. I also checked the main game, and they made Finns, Estonians, Merya, etc. into Asians. What a bunch of assholes.

Gotta wait for Axioms. Massively better UI, better character sim, and vastly superior simulation/strategy. Hideous looking though.

 

[Joggerino]

Gotta wait for Axioms. Massively better UI, better character sim, and vastly superior simulation/strategy. Hideous looking though.

How much longer?

 

[Üstad]

What boggles my mind is that both quotes* in CK3 and CK2 are just meh. Compare it to Medieval II Total war, there were nice quotes, proverbs evoking emotions, providing info about the past.. Paradox faggots can't even get this right because their customer base are drooling retards. Music was also dogshit in CK2, I remember installing mods to fix the music only it worked inconsistently, then I remember gameplay was dogshit as well and I stopped trying fix this game.

 

[Atlantico]

What boggles my mind is both in CK3 and CK2 are just meh. Compare it to Medieval II Total war, there were nice quotes, proverbs evoking emotions, providing info about the past.

The Redditor post

 

[whydoibother]

Not really the same games. In Total War, you play as the state. In CK2, you play as the family.
CK should be played more like a Choose Your Own Adventure book, or a visual novel. TW is obviously a much bigger game, as a proper strategy,

 

[InD_ImaginE]

CK should be played more like a Choose Your Own Adventure book, or a visual novel.

This doesn't really work honestly, in spite of the meme. I find Paradox Grand Strategy games just to be very number-driven game where the "events" just slightly tweak the number. I tried CK2 several times and it's just about making marriage (and some assassination) + instigating military conflict to paint the map.

I can never understand how you can make a narrative in these games. I guess I just lack the imagination as I am not European to LARP some medieval fantasy.

 

[whydoibother]

CK should be played more like a Choose Your Own Adventure book, or a visual novel.

This doesn't really work honestly, in spite of the meme. I find Paradox Grand Strategy games just to be very number-driven game where the "events" just slightly tweak the number. I tried CK2 several times and it's just about making marriage (and some assassination) + instigating military conflict to paint the map.

I can never understand how you can make a narrative in these games. I guess I just lack the imagination as I am not European to LARP some medieval fantasy.

I don't really try to paint the map when I paint. I don't finish games either. I set some goal, try to achieve it, and quit the game. I want to be king of X and Y, hold Z territory, be a prophet or whatever. Do that and often don't continue. Maybe live out the character's life.
Also I play with console commands, so I will correct some AI behavior I don't like. "Cheating", but also empowering the AI, having it declare the kind of wars I want to play. And maybe just observe the AI play by itself if I get bored, though its usually a complete retards that overextends and collapse what you've built.
Absolutely I don't play for a challenge however, the game is mechanically bad. You don't play Paradox games like you'd play Tetris or even Civilization. You make your own fun, the core game flow is trash.

 

[Üstad]

Not really the same games. In Total War, you play as the state. In CK2, you play as the family.
CK should be played more like a Choose Your Own Adventure book, or a visual novel. TW is obviously a much bigger game, as a proper strategy,

Referring to whom?

 

[Humanophage]

Not really the same games. In Total War, you play as the state. In CK2, you play as the family.
CK should be played more like a Choose Your Own Adventure book, or a visual novel. TW is obviously a much bigger game, as a proper strategy,

I don't think you really play as the family; it's just a marketing gimmick. You play as the family in something like Sir Brante.

The characters in CK are more like an addition to the usual grand strategy oeuvre to account for the more feudal nature of the period. To show that personal ties matter more and to simulate them. But it's still a grand strategy. Unfortunately, it is a very easy grand strategy, but that's a general issue with all strategies that don't bother with the AI.

The whole premise of CK with the map, the econ, the character lists, the titles is not really fit for a game focused on individuals. But it doesn't mean individuals should be absent - they're a welcome addition to the simulation. It would be better if they could combine it with POPs as well as the culture system is crap.