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Grand Strategy Crusader Kings III

Harthwain

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Dec 13, 2019
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I don't think you really play as the family; it's just a marketing gimmick. You play as the family in something like Sir Brante.
You play as head of the family. The distinction is important, because you fould have a feud with your sibling(s), for example. It helps to put emphasis on your direct descendants. Sometimes they can mess up things for you.
 
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Humanophage

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Dec 20, 2005
Messages
5,068
I don't think you really play as the family; it's just a marketing gimmick. You play as the family in something like Sir Brante.
You play as head of the family. The distinction is important, because you fould have a feud with your sibling(s), for example. It helps to put emphasis on your direct descendants. Sometimes then can mess up things for you.
I don't interpret that like this. You play as state which has a series of rulers, but they are more fleshed out than in games like EU4 and there is more incorporation of personalist politics. This fleshing out is a very welcome addition highly appropriate to the period and the more such fleshing out there is, the better. It would be good to add more flesh to other aspects like population. But it doesn't replace the core gameplay, which is about the same as in all other Paradox games.
 

Harthwain

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I don't interpret that like this. You play as state which has a series of rulers, but they are more fleshed out than in games like EU4 and there is more incorporation of personalist politics.
There isn't much to interpret to be honest, because it is not a matter of opinion.

In CK you have relationships with individual people and everything is very personal, from marriages to wars. In Europa Universalis you play literally as a state and your rulers are just a bunch of stats. In Imperator you play as a state (like in Europa Universalis), but you also have some fleshed out individuals who can play a role in the government so there can be a clash of personalities.

So I disagree that it is just a "marketing gimmick". While CK3 has a lot of flaws, it is very distinct in its approach to gameplay.
 

Humanophage

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I don't interpret that like this. You play as state which has a series of rulers, but they are more fleshed out than in games like EU4 and there is more incorporation of personalist politics.
There isn't much to interpret to be honest, because it is not a matter of opinion.

In CK you have relationships with individual people and everything is very personal, from marriages to wars. In Europa Universalis you play literally as a state and your rulers are just a bunch of stats. In Imperator you play as a state (like in Europa Universalis), but you also have some fleshed out individuals who can play a role in the government so there can be a clash of personalities.

So I disagree that it is just a "marketing gimmick". While CK3 has a lot of flaws, it is very distinct in its approach to gameplay.
I am referring to CK2. CK3's interface is too infuriating so I am not playing that. At the same time, it seems to be improving. For example, I heard that one of the DLCs actually adds the economic map mode which was bizarrely missing. Perhaps with time they will return to the functionality of the older games, so I'll just wait a few more years until it is all fixed.

It is very much a matter of opinion. If it were to be a personal simulator, it would be a disastrous game as this element is very shallow and peripheral to success, and the grand strategy genre is a poor fit for it. The CYOA genre like Sir Brante, Suzerain, perhaps King of Dragon Pass is a good fit. This is like saying you are playing individual colonists in Rimworld rather than playing a colony.

Ideally, all of their games should simply have well fleshed out elements which include persons, population, province development beyond the basics, and a decent research system (something like HoI4 or better). Victoria 2 probably approaches it all best, but CK2 is not far behind in terms of detail as there are many ways in which you can affect the domain. E.g., an interesting choice is whether to concentrate your holdings in one county for the bonuses from councilors or go wide. It's interesting to manage the kingdom, come up with bureaucratic solutions like creating a theocratic vassal that would expand on his own. The "personal politics" mostly boils down to pop-up events that repeat over and over.
 

Harthwain

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The "personal politics" mostly boils down to pop-up events that repeat over and over.
"Personal politics" and managing the kingdom are one and the same.

I always saw the pop-up events as side-stuff (evenmore so considering I never bought any DLC for CK2 and I still got ~1000 hours in it. I mention this, because I heard one of the DLCs amps-up the events). The management of the realm (both in the internal and external sense) was always at the forefront. At first it is marriages and scheming how to grow up your demesne. Then it is about how to take the leading role in the kingdom (or empire). Then you think how you can keep the spotlight for your dynasty (both close and distant relatives) and it never really stops. It gets even more interesting if you don't rush the "technology" that allows your primary heir to keep everything to himself, meaning you don't have as strong a hold on "your" lands early on and have to take opinions of your vassals more seriously.
 

Axioms

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CK should be played more like a Choose Your Own Adventure book, or a visual novel.

This doesn't really work honestly, in spite of the meme. I find Paradox Grand Strategy games just to be very number-driven game where the "events" just slightly tweak the number. I tried CK2 several times and it's just about making marriage (and some assassination) + instigating military conflict to paint the map.

I can never understand how you can make a narrative in these games. I guess I just lack the imagination as I am not European to LARP some medieval fantasy.
People who play a lot of tabletop stuff like DnD can build massive narratives in their minds but the *actual game mechanics* don't support that. That's where the confusion comes from.

CK3 *has pretensions* to being brante/suzerain but with a wider world but it doesn't live up to the goal. CK2 didn't really try to claim that which is why I respect it more, it was just a grand strategy game with an extra layer.

CK3 is like if Starfield tried to claim to be BG3 but with a sandbox attached. Starfield obviously isn't that and even Howard wouldn't be dumb enough to claim it was. Paradox on the other hand? No shame.
 

Axioms

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I don't interpret that like this. You play as state which has a series of rulers, but they are more fleshed out than in games like EU4 and there is more incorporation of personalist politics.
There isn't much to interpret to be honest, because it is not a matter of opinion.

In CK you have relationships with individual people and everything is very personal, from marriages to wars. In Europa Universalis you play literally as a state and your rulers are just a bunch of stats. In Imperator you play as a state (like in Europa Universalis), but you also have some fleshed out individuals who can play a role in the government so there can be a clash of personalities.

So I disagree that it is just a "marketing gimmick". While CK3 has a lot of flaws, it is very distinct in its approach to gameplay.
I am referring to CK2. CK3's interface is too infuriating so I am not playing that. At the same time, it seems to be improving. For example, I heard that one of the DLCs actually adds the economic map mode which was bizarrely missing. Perhaps with time they will return to the functionality of the older games, so I'll just wait a few more years until it is all fixed.

It is very much a matter of opinion. If it were to be a personal simulator, it would be a disastrous game as this element is very shallow and peripheral to success, and the grand strategy genre is a poor fit for it. The CYOA genre like Sir Brante, Suzerain, perhaps King of Dragon Pass is a good fit. This is like saying you are playing individual colonists in Rimworld rather than playing a colony.

Ideally, all of their games should simply have well fleshed out elements which include persons, population, province development beyond the basics, and a decent research system (something like HoI4 or better). Victoria 2 probably approaches it all best, but CK2 is not far behind in terms of detail as there are many ways in which you can affect the domain. E.g., an interesting choice is whether to concentrate your holdings in one county for the bonuses from councilors or go wide. It's interesting to manage the kingdom, come up with bureaucratic solutions like creating a theocratic vassal that would expand on his own. The "personal politics" mostly boils down to pop-up events that repeat over and over.
I wouldn't call it a marketing gimmick per say, but CK3 absolutely *fails to deliver* on the promise. CK3, like most Paradox games, really does have an uncommon premise, but they all generally don't succeed at their goals. Except EU4, easily the best PDox game. Solid 8/10.
 

Humanophage

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Messages
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I was thinking maybe I was getting old and just can't adapt to sensible interfaces in games I haven't played previously. Now, I actually play a fair amount of new strategies. For example, I only tried Endless Space 2 last year. I tried Fields of Glory: Empires a bit earlier on, and it was good, the problem was not the interface but the lagged mid-game turns. I usually don't have much trouble with interface even if it is a bit suboptimal. But I've just tried Civilization 5 for the first time, starting with a UI mod, and it works perfectly fine. I am quite satisfied with the UI there, both in terms of functionality and aesthetics. Everything is visible and understandable, and reasonably positioned. No annoying attempts to conceal things you can find out anyway. So it's just a trash-tier UI in CK3, not me.
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
5,847
I was thinking maybe I was getting old and just can't adapt to sensible interfaces in games I haven't played previously. Now, I actually play a fair amount of new strategies. For example, I only tried Endless Space 2 last year. I tried Fields of Glory: Empires a bit earlier on, and it was good. I usually don't have much trouble with interface even if it is a bit suboptimal. But I've just tried Civilization 5 for the first time, starting with a UI mod, and it works perfectly fine. I am quite satisfied with the UI there, both in terms of functionality and aesthetics. Everything is visible and understandable, and reasonably positioned. No annoying attempts to conceal things you can find out anyway. So it's just a trash-tier UI in CK3, not me.
It's not you, CK3's UI is just cancer, that's all. Said so since release. I think Victoria 3 later revealed what degenerate design it leads to down the line too - information hidden in a tooltip within a tooltip within a tooltip. CK2 UI was awesome in comparison.
 

Axioms

Arcane
Developer
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Messages
1,516
I was thinking maybe I was getting old and just can't adapt to sensible interfaces in games I haven't played previously. Now, I actually play a fair amount of new strategies. For example, I only tried Endless Space 2 last year. I tried Fields of Glory: Empires a bit earlier on, and it was good. I usually don't have much trouble with interface even if it is a bit suboptimal. But I've just tried Civilization 5 for the first time, starting with a UI mod, and it works perfectly fine. I am quite satisfied with the UI there, both in terms of functionality and aesthetics. Everything is visible and understandable, and reasonably positioned. No annoying attempts to conceal things you can find out anyway. So it's just a trash-tier UI in CK3, not me.
It's not you, CK3's UI is just cancer, that's all. Said so since release. I think Victoria 3 later revealed what degenerate design it leads to down the line too - information hidden in a tooltip within a tooltip within a tooltip. CK2 UI was awesome in comparison.
When all you have is a hammer, and Paradox only has hammers in every part of their design theory, everything looks like a nail. Jon Shafer pioneered a brilliant UI innovation and the braindead zombies at Paradox just slapped it on everything regardless of if it was appropriate because critical thought is beyond them.

When you are using nested/dynamic tooltips you need to spend *more time* not *less time* thinking about what layer any given information should be stored in. Additionally my understanding is that Shafer's concept was more like a superior Civpedia where you defined keywords and such that could then be moused over to explain related game concepts. It wasn't about hiding information relevant to the primary function of the base level tooltip. That is certainly how ATG itself uses them.
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
5,847
I was thinking maybe I was getting old and just can't adapt to sensible interfaces in games I haven't played previously. Now, I actually play a fair amount of new strategies. For example, I only tried Endless Space 2 last year. I tried Fields of Glory: Empires a bit earlier on, and it was good. I usually don't have much trouble with interface even if it is a bit suboptimal. But I've just tried Civilization 5 for the first time, starting with a UI mod, and it works perfectly fine. I am quite satisfied with the UI there, both in terms of functionality and aesthetics. Everything is visible and understandable, and reasonably positioned. No annoying attempts to conceal things you can find out anyway. So it's just a trash-tier UI in CK3, not me.
It's not you, CK3's UI is just cancer, that's all. Said so since release. I think Victoria 3 later revealed what degenerate design it leads to down the line too - information hidden in a tooltip within a tooltip within a tooltip. CK2 UI was awesome in comparison.
When all you have is a hammer, and Paradox only has hammers in every part of their design theory, everything looks like a nail. Jon Shafer pioneered a brilliant UI innovation and the braindead zombies at Paradox just slapped it on everything regardless of if it was appropriate because critical thought is beyond them.

When you are using nested/dynamic tooltips you need to spend *more time* not *less time* thinking about what layer any given information should be stored in. Additionally my understanding is that Shafer's concept was more like a superior Civpedia where you defined keywords and such that could then be moused over to explain related game concepts. It wasn't about hiding information relevant to the primary function of the base level tooltip. That is certainly how ATG itself uses them.

There are other problems than just that. I mean consider just the character screen:
ck3-preview-hands-on-2.jpg
Both character screens show roughly the same exact information bar some minor differences. Only CK2's needs only like half the space and looks pretty – paper, wood, ornamentation, and it actually has different styles based on religion. CK3's is ugly as fuck in comparison. The 3D models and transparency kill any sort of stylization.
 

Axioms

Arcane
Developer
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Jul 11, 2019
Messages
1,516
I was thinking maybe I was getting old and just can't adapt to sensible interfaces in games I haven't played previously. Now, I actually play a fair amount of new strategies. For example, I only tried Endless Space 2 last year. I tried Fields of Glory: Empires a bit earlier on, and it was good. I usually don't have much trouble with interface even if it is a bit suboptimal. But I've just tried Civilization 5 for the first time, starting with a UI mod, and it works perfectly fine. I am quite satisfied with the UI there, both in terms of functionality and aesthetics. Everything is visible and understandable, and reasonably positioned. No annoying attempts to conceal things you can find out anyway. So it's just a trash-tier UI in CK3, not me.
It's not you, CK3's UI is just cancer, that's all. Said so since release. I think Victoria 3 later revealed what degenerate design it leads to down the line too - information hidden in a tooltip within a tooltip within a tooltip. CK2 UI was awesome in comparison.
When all you have is a hammer, and Paradox only has hammers in every part of their design theory, everything looks like a nail. Jon Shafer pioneered a brilliant UI innovation and the braindead zombies at Paradox just slapped it on everything regardless of if it was appropriate because critical thought is beyond them.

When you are using nested/dynamic tooltips you need to spend *more time* not *less time* thinking about what layer any given information should be stored in. Additionally my understanding is that Shafer's concept was more like a superior Civpedia where you defined keywords and such that could then be moused over to explain related game concepts. It wasn't about hiding information relevant to the primary function of the base level tooltip. That is certainly how ATG itself uses them.

There are other problems than just that. I mean consider just the character screen:
Both character screens show roughly the same exact information bar some minor differences. Only CK2's needs only like half the space and looks pretty – paper, wood, ornamentation, and it actually has different styles based on religion. CK3's is ugly as fuck in comparison. The 3D models and transparency kill any sort of stylization.
Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game. Which turns out was absolutely the right call since V3 and CK3 are both trash. I def agree that the UI theming of CK3 sucks as well but I imagine it was done for modding purposes.
 

thesecret1

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Messages
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Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game. Which turns out was absolutely the right call since V3 and CK3 are both trash. I def agree that the UI theming of CK3 sucks as well but I imagine it was done for modding purposes.
There's also the matter of the UI in CK3 controlling like shit. I distinctly recall waging battles with the dynasty tree screen because it was a nightmare to basically get an overview of a noble house using it (something that was never a problem in CK2). CK3 also divided the main toolbar – instead of having everything in the top left like CK2, you have the character in bottom left (why? Fucking why?), and the rest of the menu in top right. There's actually a ton of things like these all over CK3's UI, making it a pain to use. So many little things, but it just adds up, especially when most of the damn game is in the UI. So many clicks, so much wasted space, so many unwieldy design decisions. Also the map is ugly as sin (not the paper one when zoomed out, but the zoomed in one that you spend 90% of the time looking at).
 
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Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game.
I think the 3D models are absolutely the right call and pretty cool tech, they do help in matters like immersion, being cinematic and such.
(also you can now decide to marry based on which women is hotter to you, which is kinda realistic ngl lol)
Plus they are moddable, its crazy awesome to see Guardians of Azeroth managed to use them to make Warcraft races.

Its just that the game has immense problems elsewhere.

Honestly, where I really want to see the 3D models is in Stellaris 2. You could really get crazy with customizable aliens, people modding their own alien races and posting them on the internet, etc etc. Paradox could easily dunk on Spore big time.
 

Axioms

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Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game.
I think the 3D models are absolutely the right call and pretty cool tech, they do help in matters like immersion, being cinematic and such.
(also you can now decide to marry based on which women is hotter to you, which is kinda realistic ngl lol)
Plus they are moddable, its crazy awesome to see Guardians of Azeroth managed to use them to make Warcraft races.

Its just that the game has immense problems elsewhere.

Honestly, where I really want to see the 3D models is in Stellaris 2. You could really get crazy with customizable aliens, people modding their own alien races and posting them on the internet, etc etc. Paradox could easily dunk on Spore big time.
Obviously if games had infinite budget and staff and development time and CPU and GPU and RAM limits and so on then 3D models are fine. And if we could reduce them in the UI. Why not let people have a button to reduce them down in size? But none of those things are true. I mean ideally we'd have a full on amazing looking walking sim and awesome AI generated stories and dialogue and shit. But again that isn't the choice.

Their marketing focus on the 3D models was a hint on where they "primary development focus" was. And it was a depressing one.
 

thesecret1

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I think the 3D models are absolutely the right call and pretty cool tech, they do help in matters like immersion, being cinematic and such.
(also you can now decide to marry based on which women is hotter to you, which is kinda realistic ngl lol)
You think those cartoony abominations are hot? :prosper:
 

Minecrawler

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Plus they are moddable, its crazy awesome to see Guardians of Azeroth managed to use them to make Warcraft races.
They are considerably less moddable than 2d images, especially with the whole gene morphing stuff, so in the end you are still left with purple CK3 style humans with long ears. And for everything slightly different from a standard humanoid you would need to basically design something new from scratch. Or use models from Reforged, I suppose. But even those won't quite fit, because stylistically CK3 is too different. Also they will be (90-100%) static, so you'll have humanoid races looking like cosplayers and non-humanoids looking like cheap props.
It's basically created for AGOT and everything similar to AGOT. It's fantasy incest sims even on the real map anyway.

Discussions on plaza about how depicting slavery would be "problematic" or there's "no real need for it" in a DLC about Persia and islamic world are quite a sight to behold. That's right after I learned that death screams after executions were removed because playtesters were "disturbed". Just how much of a clown show you need to make out of a "historical" game?
 

Zed

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Codex USB, 2014
The next update will overhaul the Clan system. Finally, it felt like such a weird government type. Like Feudal but worse.
 

Axioms

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The next update will overhaul the Clan system. Finally, it felt like such a weird government type. Like Feudal but worse.
Ck3 is incapable of modeling a clan/tribe system, though. The character density is too low. It is always going to be mechanically similar to their, actually Indian style feudal system with some stupid bi-drectional meters.
 

darkpatriot

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Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game.
I think the 3D models are absolutely the right call and pretty cool tech, they do help in matters like immersion, being cinematic and such.
(also you can now decide to marry based on which women is hotter to you, which is kinda realistic ngl lol)
Plus they are moddable, its crazy awesome to see Guardians of Azeroth managed to use them to make Warcraft races.

Its just that the game has immense problems elsewhere.

Honestly, where I really want to see the 3D models is in Stellaris 2. You could really get crazy with customizable aliens, people modding their own alien races and posting them on the internet, etc etc. Paradox could easily dunk on Spore big time.

I am also a big fan of the 3D models. It allows more of the focus to be put on the characters. And I also agree fully with CK3s increased focus on the character and roleplaying aspects over the strategy game aspects. While people who are looking for a strategy game with more fleshed out characters may not like it, I am really digging the unique gameplay. So far the major DLCs have all been focused on beefing up the character and roleplaying aspects, so that seems to be the way Paradox as decided to take this game.

I think a robust RPG/life simulator within a strategy game simulation is a pretty fun model and I would like to see some others besides paradox try their hand at it. So far the more indie attempts, like star dynasties, failed because they still were making strategy games and there just wasn't enough role playing/life simulation content.

With CK2 it always seemed kind of silly to offer the ability to play landless characters, despite it being frequently requested. Too many of the mechanics were tied up in actually ruling lands and fighting wars, but I think CK3 may be able to allow it if they keep expanding the roleplaying focus. The main obstacle seems to be that they would theoretically need to generate even more characters that would need to generate events and make decisions which would impact performance (the reason rulers of baronies aren't playable), but if it is strictly limited to generating characters that are necessary for the landless player to interact with, it might just happen one day.
 
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Space Satan

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The next update will overhaul the Clan system. Finally, it felt like such a weird government type. Like Feudal but worse.
It WAS "like feudal but worse". It was literally a backward social structure with next to zero capabilities to stand against organized armies.
 

Axioms

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Messages
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Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game.
I think the 3D models are absolutely the right call and pretty cool tech, they do help in matters like immersion, being cinematic and such.
(also you can now decide to marry based on which women is hotter to you, which is kinda realistic ngl lol)
Plus they are moddable, its crazy awesome to see Guardians of Azeroth managed to use them to make Warcraft races.

Its just that the game has immense problems elsewhere.

Honestly, where I really want to see the 3D models is in Stellaris 2. You could really get crazy with customizable aliens, people modding their own alien races and posting them on the internet, etc etc. Paradox could easily dunk on Spore big time.

I am also a big fan of the 3D models. It allows more of the focus to be put on the characters. And I also agree fully with CK3s increased focus on the character and roleplaying aspects over the strategy game aspects. While people who are looking for a strategy game with more fleshed out characters may not like it, I am really digging the unique gameplay. So far the major DLCs have all been focused on beefing up the character and roleplaying aspects, so that seems to be the way Paradox as decided to take this game.

I think a robust RPG/life simulator within a strategy game simulation is a pretty fun model and I would like to see some others besides paradox try their hand at it. So far the more indie attempts, like star dynasties, failed because they still were making strategy games and there just wasn't enough role playing/life simulation content.

With CK2 it always seemed kind of silly to offer the ability to play landless characters, despite it being frequently requested. Too many of the mechanics were tied up in actually ruling lands and fighting wars, but I think CK3 may be able to allow it if they keep expanding the roleplaying focus. The main obstacle seems to be that they would theoretically need to generate even more characters that would need to generate events and make decisions which would impact performance (the reason rulers of baronies aren't playable), but if it is strictly limited to generating characters that are necessary for the landless player to interact with, it might just happen one day.
First they have pledged never to allow landless characters, in fact one reason they don't put in Republics and Theocracies is that it is at odds with the dynasty/family sequential character play.

Second you have it all wrong. The role play aspects suck. If the roleplay/character mechanics were deep and awesome I'd be happy. But they aren't. Characters barely interact, most characters are interchangeable and completely indistinguishable from any other character. You must be one of those DnD people who just creates everything in his head canon and doesn't care if the gameplay doesn't actually support anything.
 

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